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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 3:32 AM   
summerwind


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnShe


quote:

ORIGINAL: summerwind

BTW, here is a good example of what this thread speaks..........

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10532898/tm.htm


Summerwind, please double check that link.  It has nothing to do with this thread.






sure it does.........ARF's are bringing people into the hobby that have no clue, no training in safety to handle the power end, and downright dangerous..........they all think they have built a kit, which turns out to be an ARF...........they have no idea how to build a model from a kit, and are careless which results in further issues and or discouragement that would otherwise be avoided if they learned the way we did.
there is much to this discussion and i enjoy hearing everyones opinion..........to me everyone who has posted so far has legitimate opinions and ideas on what this thread is all about.........however if you feel you have an issue with me, please by all means lets spare everyone with a boring whatever and take to the PM system.............

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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 4:02 AM   
KitBuilder



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Status: offline 		The thing is... you have to do what matters to you. If you like to build.. build. If you like to fly..take the shortcut route. it's all good. Everyone knows the difference in terms of effort involved which is why modelers choose the path they wish to pursue. My non-modeling friends think I'm crazy for spending so much time on something that may crash. They don't have the passion... the love of building things that fly. Sometimes not seeing it's the journey, not the destination.

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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 4:58 AM   
MTK



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Status: offline 		Really don't get what the hubbub's about. ARFs versus KITs....blah blah blah!!!

OS invented the word "ARF"....you ever get a new OS engine with a glow plug??? Hmmmm? I've been at this for over 40 years and never recall seeing one with one. If that's not an ARFie, nothing is (TIC)



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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 6:11 AM   
radiisteve


 

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Status: offline 		The Question of an ARF being as kit is like someone modifying the rib pattern on a plane and then saying they have "re-designed" the wing, it's total BS.   Technically it is a "kit" because you have to put it together, but to builders it is not something you built, you just put them together.  

  For builder's, the Joys and struggles of building a full kit, and most of all the great pride in the accomplishment of actually building and completing something from start to finish is far more satisfying.

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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 6:19 AM   
Desertlakesflying


 

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Status: offline 		We could always throw in the monkey wrench of kits or scratch built, because after all, using the reasoning of some......scratch building is the only real true way.

But that makes as much sense as the ARF vs. Kit debate.

I'll take ARF's...much easier to replace when they get re-kitted. Plus I didn't spend more money or more time than I needed to for something with a shelf life......

Who would have guessed that when you put glue to a box of wood it dramatically reduces the life of the wood?

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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 7:00 AM   
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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 7:01 AM   
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Status: offline 		 But in reality who really cares, a kit is an ARF and a kit is a kit, scratch built is neither and they all end up the same bucket of splinters if you crash them hard enough.

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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 8:53 AM   
TimBle


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: summerwind


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnShe


quote:

ORIGINAL: summerwind

BTW, here is a good example of what this thread speaks..........

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10532898/tm.htm


Summerwind, please double check that link.  It has nothing to do with this thread.






sure it does.........ARF's are bringing people into the hobby that have no clue, no training in safety to handle the power end, and downright dangerous..........they all think they have built a kit, which turns out to be an ARF...........they have no idea how to build a model from a kit, and are careless which results in further issues and or discouragement that would otherwise be avoided if they learned the way we did.
there is much to this discussion and i enjoy hearing everyones opinion..........to me everyone who has posted so far has legitimate opinions and ideas on what this thread is all about.........however if you feel you have an issue with me, please by all means lets spare everyone with a boring whatever and take to the PM system.............


Unquestionably the biggest load of nonsense posted in this thread thus far.

ARF's responsible for poor airfield behaviour?! Did youtake your stupid pills this morning?

Bad behaviour comes from poor training. Not what you fly.
Bad behaviour comes from bad attitude to life and others (see words in quote).

ARF's and their operators are only as bad as the club allows them to be and since theres this snooty attitude among some Kit builders I'm not surprised there could be a divide.

I started in the hobby when I was 3 yrs old. My old man bought me a simle plastic kit to assmeble a F-100 super sabre. It wa fairluy large and aimed at kids. I enjoyed it. By 5 I was building balsa freeflight planes and by 8 I was building my own control line planes. We could not afford RC so Line control was as far as it went for me till 15 when I discovered tha girls like to cuddle...

Back in it at age 37 and now its RC. Guess what, I don't give a hoot about kits. ARF's are just easier, require less time to build and  that means I spend more time doing what I love, FLYING!
Anyone who an read can  build from a kit, anyone who can read can build an ARF. There is no difference. Both require a fair degree of aptitude for aerodynamics and structures to build correctly and deliver a safe airplane. If you think there is then keep telling yourself that. We all need a crutch to cling to sanity from time to time.

The reverse of your claim is actually true, because ARF's allow people with less aptitude for aerodynamic and structure to get a safe plane in the air more quickly. With proper guidance along the way they will learn all they need to perhaps one day want to tackle a safe scratch build or the lesser kit.
If a kit built trainer turned up at my airfield in the hands of someone with no aptitude (a few quick questions will reveal all...) I'd be concerned about flying that plane for them and providing instruction. Did he build it correctly, nough glue, the right glue etc. With an ARF you more or less know what you have in front of you and can work from there.




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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 12:10 PM   
summerwind


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TimBle


quote:

ORIGINAL: summerwind


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnShe


quote:

ORIGINAL: summerwind

BTW, here is a good example of what this thread speaks..........

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10532898/tm.htm


Summerwind, please double check that link.  It has nothing to do with this thread.






sure it does.........ARF's are bringing people into the hobby that have no clue, no training in safety to handle the power end, and downright dangerous..........they all think they have built a kit, which turns out to be an ARF...........they have no idea how to build a model from a kit, and are careless which results in further issues and or discouragement that would otherwise be avoided if they learned the way we did.
there is much to this discussion and i enjoy hearing everyones opinion..........to me everyone who has posted so far has legitimate opinions and ideas on what this thread is all about.........however if you feel you have an issue with me, please by all means lets spare everyone with a boring whatever and take to the PM system.............


Unquestionably the biggest load of nonsense posted in this thread thus far.

ARF's responsible for poor airfield behaviour?! Did youtake your stupid pills this morning?

Bad behaviour comes from poor training. Not what you fly.
Bad behaviour comes from bad attitude to life and others (see words in quote).

ARF's and their operators are only as bad as the club allows them to be and since theres this snooty attitude among some Kit builders I'm not surprised there could be a divide.

I started in the hobby when I was 3 yrs old. My old man bought me a simle plastic kit to assmeble a F-100 super sabre. It wa fairluy large and aimed at kids. I enjoyed it. By 5 I was building balsa freeflight planes and by 8 I was building my own control line planes. We could not afford RC so Line control was as far as it went for me till 15 when I discovered tha girls like to cuddle...

Back in it at age 37 and now its RC. Guess what, I don't give a hoot about kits. ARF's are just easier, require less time to build and  that means I spend more time doing what I love, FLYING!
Anyone who an read can  build from a kit, anyone who can read can build an ARF. There is no difference. Both require a fair degree of aptitude for aerodynamics and structures to build correctly and deliver a safe airplane. If you think there is then keep telling yourself that. We all need a crutch to cling to sanity from time to time.

The reverse of your claim is actually true, because ARF's allow people with less aptitude for aerodynamic and structure to get a safe plane in the air more quickly. With proper guidance along the way they will learn all they need to perhaps one day want to tackle a safe scratch build or the lesser kit.
If a kit built trainer turned up at my airfield in the hands of someone with no aptitude (a few quick questions will reveal all...) I'd be concerned about flying that plane for them and providing instruction. Did he build it correctly, nough glue, the right glue etc. With an ARF you more or less know what you have in front of you and can work from there.





LMAO.............you are so right! glad to see someone understood

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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 1:23 PM   
Al Stein



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Status: offline 		A thought maybe we could use a new worrd for a box of materials, parts, plans, and instructions (that which we called a kit before ARFs became so dominant.

I think we all know what is or is not an ARF. If there's any significance to the difference, it's that if I want an ARF, I want to know that's what I'm getting before I open the box on my workbench. If I want to build a model from pieces, personally assuring the type and quality of the joints, adhesives, etc., then I want to know I'm getting a set of unjoined, unfinished parts, materials, etc. so I can do that.

Some of today's new language usage offends me WAY more than calling an ARF a kit, but that ARF/kit change is something that makes it harder for a modeler to buy what he wants. To me that is a valuable issue. A new guy doesn't get what he payed for... is probably not coming back.

Either way, I'm sure we'll decide nothing here, but I'm enjoying reading the outrage of people who HAVE TO read this "worthless" thread! Have a great day, all!

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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 2:56 PM   
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Status: offline 		So just to clarify,  Is the Ultra Micro BNF I just got a kit or an ARF? 

I did have to charge the battery and plug it in before flying.






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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 3:09 PM   
Aiden88



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Status: offline 		Summerwind, I don't want to pick on you but man... What the heck about putting a kit together teaches you training in safety and how to handle the power end? Explain further please. I just finished my Sig 1/5 scale Cub kit and I don't recall learning a darn thing about safety during the build. In fact, I sliced my fingers several times with exacto blades, got CA onto my skin, and inhaled a ton of Nitrate dope fumes. I'd say kit building is dangerous to MY health. But seriously, anyone can build a kit and show up the airfield without a clue as how to fly it. I was never forced to go through any safety training before building my kit. I don't believe building a kit makes you a better RC pilot at all; stick time and proper instruction does. Do you really believe that ALL ARF owners are untrained, reckless flyers? Really?  

Nobody at the LHS ever asked me if I was capable of flying that Cub before I bought the kit.  Nobody stopped by during the build to make sure I was building it properly. What would you say if one of my solder joints breaks and I lose aileron control and my Cub goes out of control and smashes into someone's car in the parking lot, or worse yet, hits a person?  Did kit building that Cub make things any safer for anyone?    

MinnFlyer and RCKen review and fly ARFs. I'm sure they've bought a bunch too. What do you think of them? Turncoats? Reckless? Untrained? Poor fools who think they have built a kit which turned out to be an ARF?  Do you see where broad sweeping generalizations are worthless fodder?


[/quote]

sure it does.........ARF's are bringing people into the hobby that have no clue, no training in safety to handle the power end, and downright dangerous..........they all think they have built a kit, which turns out to be an ARF...........they have no idea how to build a model from a kit, and are careless which results in further issues and or discouragement that would otherwise be avoided if they learned the way we did.
there is much to this discussion and i enjoy hearing everyones opinion..........to me everyone who has posted so far has legitimate opinions and ideas on what this thread is all about.........however if you feel you have an issue with me, please by all means lets spare everyone with a boring whatever and take to the PM system.............
[/quote]


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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 3:20 PM   
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Status: offline 		The interesting "thing" about all this is, We're talking about "different" hobbiest because of different times. I started over 58 years ago.

Sure, I remember the time when we were ALL the same hobbiest, in that we ALL had the same interest in common.

Back then the market place lacked what it has today, "clothes pin," basically out of the box, airplanes.

Ever see that diagram of a bunch of people going into a building then exiting one at a time and they all look the same.

Am I the only one who sees this happening?



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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 5:51 PM   
jfetter


 

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Status: offline 		Some ARFs still require 40 to 50 hours of work to complete and "good craftsmanship" is "good craftsmanship". So no matter if cutting out gear doors or installing wiring, air lines, whatever, when it's done nice and clean it still takes time and skill. Sure, kits require far more time and additional skill but there is absolutely a need for ARF's and you can still take pride in finishing one expertly. A build thread shows you what comes in the box and exactly what's required to finish the model, kit or ARF a build thread is valid for both...

Jack

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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 6:07 PM   
TBONE6



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Status: offline 		Soooooo.......is a taco "kit" a kit, or an MRE??

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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 6:29 PM   
TBONE6



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Status: offline 		Bought an ARF.
Won an ARF.
Built a warbird fuse of my own design to see what it was like.(maybe 16" long, not too bad).
built a 13" wingspan, rubber band powered F6F Hellcat from a kit, which was pretty cool.
fun coming out with an end product, but MAN, does it eat up time!!
Maybe when I retire.....
quote:

ORIGINAL: Avaiojet

quote:

the only way an ARF is a kit is when you wreck it and have a pile of balsa left


Reverse engineering!

Oddly enough, I see attempts from ARF "builders" to set themselves apart from others, with the same purchased airplane, by making changes.

Some of these changes are worthy of conversation AND I see ability in, not only the executed physical process, but the quality of the results. The changes ARE a modeling process and ability is required.

Has anyone started building "kits" who started out with ARF's?

That would be an interesting topic for discussion.





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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 6:58 PM   
TBONE6



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Status: offline 		snatched a 1.20 size ARF out of the trashcan at my field, so i can experiment with covering!!
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tampatexan

I just got back into RC after a 30 year break.  I used to build kits, but I like the ARFs very much ... because whenever someone crashes one at our field, I'm usually able to get them to give it to me instead of tossing it in the trash.  Repairing them is challenging with no plans, but I now have 4 ARFs in the garage ready to fly that cost me nothing...






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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 7:42 PM  1 votes
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Status: offline 		Anyone except me ever notice that it is always the ARF owner that has to justify his not building?

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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 9:21 PM   
Sam-E


 

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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 9:44 PM   
ramcfarland



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Status: offline 		ARFs have their place, however, I prefer to Scratch and or kit build,or modify a kit.

The ARF proplem as I see it is that the majority of the ARFs come from China and where do you think they are putting their money?? In to their growing military..... so try and purcash ARFs that are made anywhere but in China!

(just my 2 cents)

Try and get an ARF that looks like this....

Attachments
Click to see fullsize image.
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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 10:25 PM   
summerwind


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aiden88

Summerwind, I don't want to pick on you but man... What the heck about putting a kit together teaches you training in safety and how to handle the power end? Explain further please. I just finished my Sig 1/5 scale Cub kit and I don't recall learning a darn thing about safety during the build. In fact, I sliced my fingers several times with exacto blades, got CA onto my skin, and inhaled a ton of Nitrate dope fumes. I'd say kit building is dangerous to MY health. But seriously, anyone can build a kit and show up the airfield without a clue as how to fly it. I was never forced to go through any safety training before building my kit. I don't believe building a kit makes you a better RC pilot at all; stick time and proper instruction does. Do you really believe that ALL ARF owners are untrained, reckless flyers? Really?  

Nobody at the LHS ever asked me if I was capable of flying that Cub before I bought the kit.  Nobody stopped by during the build to make sure I was building it properly. What would you say if one of my solder joints breaks and I lose aileron control and my Cub goes out of control and smashes into someone's car in the parking lot, or worse yet, hits a person?  Did kit building that Cub make things any safer for anyone?    

MinnFlyer and RCKen review and fly ARFs. I'm sure they've bought a bunch too. What do you think of them? Turncoats? Reckless? Untrained? Poor fools who think they have built a kit which turned out to be an ARF?  Do you see where broad sweeping generalizations are worthless fod



i think you are missing the humor entirely......don't take my posts seriously............this is a friggin hobby, it doesn't matter what's spoken here.

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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 10:37 PM   
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Status: offline 		we live in a world of instant gratifacation. I myself see alot of ARFS that are so EXPENSIVE , You could build 2 kits
for the price of 1 ARF . one thing is , their all lite ply , eccept the pricey composite ones , the lite ply is weaker than balsa.

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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 10:48 PM   
huck1199



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Status: offline 		Well this is entertaining but it is a no win subject. I prefer to spend my time building.  See my Sig 1/3 Sapcewalker build here.

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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/24/2011 10:57 PM   
radiisteve


 

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Status: offline 		Ya know, I have to admit when I got back into the Hobby starting last year I joined up with IMAA, AMA & Tower club membership and got a hold of a 60 size P-51 Kit (Top Flight P-51B), and two ARF's; a P-47 (.60..120 size) and a Super Stearman (.120 Size) to speed up the process because I hadn't built a plane lately.  

However, I desired like Hell to also get something GIANT with "pucker power" built to show what I could really do as a builder.

So I appreciate ARF's and their place, but I am alarmed as HELL at the lack of variety in quality kits to build.    Having run the family business for 16 years I understand the business aspect of supply and demand in this I want it now age, but again I am alarmed at how many kit makers have been bought out and killed in the process.

My work takes up 99.9% of all my building time currently, but when this last "Scale Model build" project is done (Medical Accelerator)  I'm going to dive in like a Hungry banshee with all my heart!!



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RE: ARF's are Kits? - 5/25/2011 12:23 AM   
Aiden88



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Status: offline 		That's cool. I thought you sounded a bit extreme to be for real but admittedly I hadn't read all the posts in the thread. I'm glad you were just messin with folks.  I did laugh when I read it but at the same time I thought you were being serious. 


quote:

ORIGINAL: summerwind

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aiden88

Summerwind, I don't want to pick on you but man... What the heck about putting a kit together teaches you training in safety and how to handle the power end? Explain further please. I just finished my Sig 1/5 scale Cub kit and I don't recall learning a darn thing about safety during the build. In fact, I sliced my fingers several times with exacto blades, got CA onto my skin, and inhaled a ton of Nitrate dope fumes. I'd say kit building is dangerous to MY health. But seriously, anyone can build a kit and show up the airfield without a clue as how to fly it. I was never forced to go through any safety training before building my kit. I don't believe building a kit makes you a better RC pilot at all; stick time and proper instruction does. Do you really believe that ALL ARF owners are untrained, reckless flyers? Really?  

Nobody at the LHS ever asked me if I was capable of flying that Cub before I bought the kit.  Nobody stopped by during the build to make sure I was building it properly. What would you say if one of my solder joints breaks and I lose aileron control and my Cub goes out of control and smashes into someone's car in the parking lot, or worse yet, hits a person?  Did kit building that Cub make things any safer for anyone?    

MinnFlyer and RCKen review and fly ARFs. I'm sure they've bought a bunch too. What do you think of them? Turncoats? Reckless? Untrained? Poor fools who think they have built a kit which turned out to be an ARF?  Do you see where broad sweeping generalizations are worthless fod



i think you are missing the humor entirely......don't take my posts seriously............this is a friggin hobby, it doesn't matter what's spoken here.



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