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MAAC at AMA event - 6/16/2011 1:35 PM   
jetsett



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From: Guelph, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Hello,
I'd like to attend some AMA Jet events but dont have a Turbine Waiver. We don't need them in Canada.
Just wondering what is the process of being able to fly at a jet event when visiting from Canada with MAAC. Anyhelp would be appreciated,
Thanks


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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 6/16/2011 1:51 PM   
rcpete347



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Status: online 		HI, the old way was to have a LOP, letter of proficiency from a MAAC Jet rep., which will be upgraded in the next few months.
Rcpete


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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 6/16/2011 2:41 PM   
PaulD



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Status: offline 		The LOP system is being replaced with a TOC = Turbine Operators Certificate.

Unless you can produce either in the US, they will not let you fly. The letter is basically a statement from MAAC, signed by the Jet Committee Chairman stating that you have equivalent proficiency to someone in the US who has thier turbine waiver. MAAC has a back to back agreement with AMA to keep your insurance valid. You will have to follow AMA turbine rules whenever flying in the US.

Kelly Williams is the Jet Comittee chair for MAAC - I will PM you his contact information.

PaulD


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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 6/16/2011 6:16 PM   
jetsett



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Status: offline 		Thanks Guys, I appreciate it. I was hoping to go to Kentucky Jets, but will probably wait for another time.
Something to look forward to.






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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 6/16/2011 9:41 PM   
rcjets_63



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Status: online 		jetsett,

What are you waiting for??? Come on down to Kentucky and join the fun. Getting the letter is easy (I believe I actually got the first one MAAC ever did) and even if you don't get it, we'll have enough turbine CDs there that you could do a waiver flight no problem.

We need as many Canadians there as possible to help counterbalance the South Florida "factor" (you guys all know who I'm talking about but I'm trying to take it easy on him and give him some time to heal after the beat down I issued him).

Don't use paperwork as an excuse!!!

Regards,

Lucky Pierre

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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 6/16/2011 9:46 PM   
John Redman


 

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Status: offline 		Doubt the waiver flight would hold water as he is not an AMA member. I would think the paperwork should not be too hard to acquire. Heck, they gave a letter to RC Pete.

RC Pete, you coming to kentucky jets this year?

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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 6/16/2011 10:11 PM   
bob1393



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Status: offline 		Jetsett - If you were to join the AMA, you could then take the waiver test. We have done this with other turbine flyers from Canada. This has been okayed by Ilona Maine from the AMA. She received approval from the safety committee.

Bob Brusa

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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 6/16/2011 10:22 PM   
luv2flyrc



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quote:

ORIGINAL: rcpete347

HI, the old way was to have a LOP, letter of proficiency from a MAAC Jet rep., which will be upgraded in the next few months.
Rcpete


yes, should be done by the time summers over

Mike

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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 6/16/2011 11:36 PM   
rcpete347



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Rcpete

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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 6/17/2011 5:08 AM   
John Redman


 

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Status: offline 		Great to hear Pete. We will see you at Kentucky.

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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 6/18/2011 6:18 AM   
Kelly W



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Status: offline 		Hi Everyone,
A word up front, please be very careful with this type of thing… Get your info from the right source to ensure its accuracy. Asking a question like this in an on-line forum will get you all kinds of answers, but the info may not be 100% accurate.

AMA waiver for MAAC members:
I don’t believe that this is completely cut and dry as it’s shown above. Maybe from the US perspective, but it’s not yet official from the Canadian side unless I’m out of the loop somehow… International policies like this will have 2 sides to them and the above has only stated the AMA’s side. I have not played a big part is this so far, but I am aware of it and have been in on some of the discussion with the chair of the insurance group. I will follow up on this.

To start with… MAAC members must coincidentally maintain an AMA membership for the AMA waiver to be valid, meaning there’s an additional cost incurred by Canadians each year with this option.

Secondly, there’s an assumption I’ve heard more than once and I need to correct it. If a waiver is granted by the AMA, it will not automatically translate to a LoP or TOC being granted by MAAC. All MAAC jet pilots must go through the Canadian process to get the Canadian document, and the results are not transferrable either way.

Third and most importantly, it’s my understanding that the AMA’s safety committee has agreed and the waiver may be handed out to a MAAC members. The most important part though, I have yet to see an official document stating which organization handles the liability policy in this case. There are a number of assumptions on this one, but liability coverage is not something that any pilot wants to have in question if / when it may be necessary… I’ve heard a few opinions, but the wording in MAAC’s policies is not written with an AMA waiver for Canadians in mind, so it is not crystal clear. Following that, the way the waiver or Canada’s document is spoken of at times, some obviously consider it as simply another piece of paperwork. Both documents are far more than a piece of paper stating that someone says someone else is good enough to a fly a jet. In reality we need to keep in mind that both the AMA Waiver, and / or the MAAC equivalent are documents that govern multi-million dollar liability insurance policies...


A quick note on the MAAC LoP, and the transition plan to the TOC:
The process of issuing new LoPs was put on hold (by me) last year as a result of a committee discussion. That resulted in a consensus vote, stating that a number of improvements were warranted. That has been mentioned more than once in my articles in Model Aviation Canada magazine, which every MAAC member will have received every 2 months.

The committee concluded discussions in May and passed a motion recommending a replacement policy, driving a new document called the Turbine Operator’s Certificate (TOC), as Paul indicated earlier. The proposal is in the hands of MAAC’s executives and we are optimistic that it will be implemented with few or no changes based on the effort that went into it and the consensus vote in the committee. Based on this and the sensitivity in time, we began pre-registering pilots in the new system as of about 2 weeks ago at Canadian jet rallies in BC and Ontario. I’m sure the pilots that have been through the pre-registration will agree that it’s not an overly onerous procedure to follow. Every piece of feedback so far has stated that it’s quite reasonable and scalable with the expected growth trends in Canadian jet modeling, which was a major hurdle with the old system. Once the new process is (hopefully) passed by MAAC’s execs, I will immediately follow up with issuing the new TOCs. The intension is to completely replace the LoP process, which includes the recommendation to expire all current LoPs at the end of 2012. At this point all of those documents are still valid, and those members will have a full 2 seasons to acquire the new document. This was done to minimize any risk, while also not jeopardizing anyone’s continued privilege to fly as they were. Once in place, Paul Dries will communicate the official plan to CDs through the JPO.

Any questions, please PM me or call/email me through my contact into on the MAAC webs site. I will answer individual questions as best I can but I’m not going to provide any further information in this thread, as it is not yet concrete and this is already on the edge of what should be publicly stated.

Thanks,
Kelly


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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 8/4/2011 8:11 AM   
Kelly W



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From: Delta, BC, CANADA
Status: offline 		Just a quick update on this topic.

See this thread on RCCanada.

http://www.rccanada.ca/rccforum/showthread.php?t=126377

I just posted an update on the new MAAC 'Turbine Operator's Certificate' Program. It's been approved by the MAAC Board and is now underway for any Canadian pilot looking to fly in the US. Around 20 pilots are already certified in the new program.

Thx,
Kelly

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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 8/4/2011 10:51 AM   
MajorTomski



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Status: offline 		And another two cents;

The AMA also has something called an affilate membership. It talks about being reciprical with Canada but it also asks for another $28 USD:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/903.pdf

I only became aware of this because of my involvment with the AMA LMA program which allows those larger Canadian planes to fly in AMA sanctioned events.

Tom
AMA 826 CD, LMAI

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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 12/29/2012 6:51 PM   
FlyinTiger



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Status: offline 		Bringing back an old thread to encourage review of this great information. MAAC's process for turbine modelers is good reading. Obtaining a "Turbine Operator's Certificate" (TOC) enables a Canadian modeler to fly at AMA sanctioned events, every AMA turbine waiver holder should be able to answer all the questions and know the info presented, especially turbine CDs, as this could come up at your event!

Documents and discussion here:

http://www.rccanada.ca/rccforum/showthread.php?t=126377

I found it was good reading for my own edification as a refresher on turbine basics as well.


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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 12/29/2012 10:36 PM   
Boomerang1



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From: Sydney, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		I asked the question regarding procedures when visiting a jet fly in from Oz.

Ilona Maine quickly replied with the following answer.


Hello John,

Thank you for contacting us.

AMA has an affiliate membership available for overseas visitors. The cost is $28. You can find the application form at www.modelaircraft.org/files/903.pdf.

As for turbine operation, you would merely need a letter from MAAA stating that you are a qualified and experienced in operating a model powered by a turbine engine.

I hope this information is helpful. Please don’t hesitate to contact us if you need further assistance.


Australian flyers still need a letter of proficiency.
My thoughts would be to contact the organisers of the event well prior to the day to let them know
what you intend to do rather than springing it on them on the day.

I'm sure they would be busy enough running the event to worry about any unusual problems that they may have to contact the AMA about on a weekend.
Reminds me of Burt Munro from NZ turning up at Bonneville unannounced in the movie ''Worlds Fastest Indian''.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World's_Fastest_Indian

John.

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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 12/29/2012 10:45 PM   
Art ARRO


 

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Status: offline 		Albert and ALL,
Thanks for posting this along with the link to the MAAC information on the TOC.  I've printed the document and will advise other local turbine CD's to do the same as we have several Canadian jet pilots attend our AMA sanctioned jevents here in the northeast.  This TOC process closely mirrors the AMA Turbine Waiver process for fixed wing turbine powered R/C models.   Also note that the AMA Document # 510-A undergoes continuous review and updates are made as required.  The latest amendment may be found under the Documents Segment of the AMA website, www.modelaircraft.org.  Look for Doc # 510-A and related documents pertaining to turbine operations. 

Art ARRO, AMA Turbine CD

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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 12/30/2012 4:48 AM   
PaulD



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Status: offline 		There have been no recent updates to the MAAC policy however, ALL of the old LOP's expire as of Dec 31, 2012.

Only MAAC members who hold the new TOC in good standing are covered by MAAC to fly turbine powered aircraft in the US. This of course does not preclude any persons who choose to join AMA and obtain the AMA certification including MAAC members.

On the MAAC web site there is the RC Jets section:

http://maac.ca/committees/maac_committee.php?cm=24

In this section there are the committee documents that cover the MAAC TOC policy and also there is a list of CURRENT TOC holders that is kept up to date. This may be used by any event CD TO determine if a pilot from Canada is indeed a TOC holder.

Paul Dries
MAAC Jet Comittee
JPO Rep Canada


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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 12/30/2012 3:32 PM   
Art ARRO


 

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Status: offline 		Paul, Kelly and ALL,
What are the requirements for an AMA turbine waivered pilot to fly at a MAAC event?  I have attended and flown turbine models at the Bay of Quinte Jet Rally, Wingham Jets and Sherbrooke Jets and have shown my AMA waiver documentation which was satisfactory.  Are there any other requirements that must be met?   Thanks in advance for your reply.

Art ARRO, Sr. Jet Pilot

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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 12/30/2012 3:51 PM   
luv2flyrc



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Status: offline 		Art, there are no document requirements to be met on the Canadian side for you, other than being an AMA member. Of course, standard safety procedures must be followed ie. fire extinguisher etc.

Canadians do not require a waiver or TOC document to fly a turbine in Canada. It is only when we travel to the States that we require our TOC because of the AMA's requirement for a turbine waiver.

Mike 

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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 12/30/2012 7:22 PM   
Kelly W



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quote:

ORIGINAL:

there are no document requirements to be met on the Canadian side for you, other than being an AMA member.



Hi guys, this is good timing...

Unfortunately the above is close but not entirely true... The reciprocal agreement states that a pilot must abide by the more stringent of the 2 rule books if they differ. The most common application of this agreement determines that a Canadian can fly 200+ in Canada, but must stick to 200 in the US. An American must stick to 200 limit in both cases. Now in terms of documentation, it applies to US turbine pilots needing to show their AMA card in addition to a valid US turbine waiver when they come to Canada and wish to fly.

The background of this is ownership of liability coverage (the part of our hobby that is more business than hobby). A Canadian pilot that causes a liability claim in Canada is covered by MAAC, obviously. A MAAC pilot that has an incident in the US still has MAAC as their primary insurance carrier. An AMA pilot has the AMA as their primary insurance provided in both cases. I'm no insurance expert, but I believe the secondary insurance provider for a MAAC pilot is the US will be the AMA, and the secondary provider for an AMA pilot in Canada will be MAAC. I wouldn't expect that to ever happen though.

The most important item that AMA CDs need to be aware of, is what Paul D mentioned above. After Dec 31 2012, if a Canadian pilot visits the US and produces a 'letter' from a former MAAC chairman (there have been many), can not produce a TOC document (sample below), and the AMA CD allows them to fly - they are doings so as an uninsured pilot. Standard MAAC insurance applies to non turbine flight in the US - regardless, but to fly a turbine and abide by the AMA's requirements for foreign pilots to product documentation, MAAC will expire all former document versions on Dec 31st, and the only valid document from that point forward shall be the TOC form.

The only departure that I'm aware of is that the AMA was asked if they would be willing to issue an AMA turbine waiver to MAAC pilots without a TOC, and they have done this on a limited number of cases. In this circumstance, to be clear MAAC will not be the insurance provider for a turbine related incident, and the pilot must maintain the AMA membership so long as they wish to use their waiver. It is up to the pilot to confirm that the AMA will in fact cover them if an incident were to occur.


In essence, the jet committee chairman have been handing out 'letters' since the requirement was 1st introduced by the AMA. I believe the 1st MAAC chairman to do so was Dean Wichmann, who recognised that such a system needed to be more formal but I don't believe the idea had much following with MAAC at the time. ~12 years later, we all recognised that there were no requirements in place (making it hard to say anything but 'yes' to a letter request...), and no concrete history of documents issued. Those issues and many more were all eliminated in this updated policy. To make a policy with value, it must be enforceable and the prior was not. On top of that, we want to be supportive of the JPO / AMA / pilots in the US, and only release pilots into your system that should justifiably be there.

Kelly

Sample TOC form
Link to active TOC forms


< Message edited by Kelly W -- 1/1/2013 12:58 AM >

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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 12/31/2012 12:30 AM   
Art ARRO


 

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Status: offline 		Kelly,
Thanks immensely for this information and I'll distribute it to local AMA CDs that host events with MAAC participants.  I did note that the TOC Master Record was current as of 9/3/2012 and there are several MAAC  jet pilots that do not appear on the roster.  Hopefully these will achieve their TOC by the time the flying season commences here in the northeast US.   As a turbine CD, I check with AMA HQ for a roster of all turbine waiver holders just before the event date.  I'll also now check with MAAC for their record of active TOCs.  My first jet event is on 6/1/2013 and I expect several more pilots will be added to this roster.
This is all good information to be in compliance with our safety and insurance requirements.  Many thanks again.

Art ARRO 

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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 12/31/2012 12:51 AM   
Vettster


 

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Status: offline 		Forgive me for going slightly off topic here. But while there are many Canadian pilots reading this thread and obviously have crossed the boarder many times with their jets... I would like to ask what are the requirements to cross over the boarder with a Turbine model, as far as customs go. I would like to attend events in the NE next year.

I have received my TOC this year and am on the list.

Thanks

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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 12/31/2012 1:58 AM   
Jeremy300


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vettster

Forgive me for going slightly off topic here. But while there are many Canadian pilots reading this thread and obviously have crossed the boarder many times with their jets... I would like to ask what are the requirements to cross over the boarder with a Turbine model, as far as customs go. I would like to attend events in the NE next year.

I have received my TOC this year and am on the list.

Thanks


Form Y38 is what you need. Allows you to temporarily export and then re-import goods used for personal needs without financial penalties.

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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 12/31/2012 2:01 PM   
Art ARRO


 

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Status: offline 		For entry to the US at our common border you need a valid passport or equivalent, ie: Nexus Card. I also recommend printing the flyer of the US event that you plan to attend to show to the border officials.  Be prepared to show the officials your models and answer any questions that they may have.  Some of the more frequent pilots attending US events may provide additional advice. 
The Form Y38 is to show Canadian border officials upon reentry to Canada.  I hope this answers your concerns and we look forward to your attendance at our AMA jet events.

Art ARRO

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RE: MAAC at AMA event - 12/31/2012 4:13 PM   
Vettster


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks guys. So where do I get this form y38? Do I fill it out as I go thru customs entering the US. Can I get this somewhere ahead of time to save the hassle as I approach the border?

Thanks

Trevor

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