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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/14/2012 5:48 PM   
DadsToysBG



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Status: offline 		Barracuda, your right. why i said that i don't know. I have the battery's here in front of me. I guess it was a senior moment. Dennis

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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/14/2012 5:49 PM   
wcmorrison



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Status: offline 		Tried Spektrum, got browns, bad programming, and bad support.  Got rid of all of it and have never had a problems since using Hitec equipment.  My thinking is a a rush to market and bad basic set up.  Led to all kinds of problems, some real and some imaginary.  No matter, the reuslt was the same, no flying!  Go for anything but Spektrum!

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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/14/2012 6:13 PM   
DadsToysBG



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Status: offline 		WC your making a blanket statement. Are you saying that the new X is not better. Spektrum was the first, all the other companies had time to see the short comings and incorporate the issues and make changes.
Spektrum has never hid from the customer when a issue arose. They found a fix and gave it to the customer. The new X is as good as anybodies and by some reports even better.
Look at the history of our hobby were it pertains to radios and see the advancements and changes. we had radios that had 6ft antennas, now we have 3". We had receivers that had to have 12v battery's and rubber bands to move the controls. Then we moved to AM then FM then narrow band and last PCM.
At one time you had to have a radio for each plane, now radios hold 50 planes. The newest radio then was a 6ch. Now you can have 18ch.
All the companies keep getting better and making changes to improve their product.
You can do all the beta testing you want but until you put it out there you never know for sure what will happen. Dennis

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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/14/2012 7:44 PM   
BarracudaHockey



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Status: offline 		Horizon has outstanding support and Spektrum/JR recievers dont brown out at much different voltage as anyone elses. No matter what equipment you're running, proper power delivery is a must.

Dennis, it's all good, I knew what you meant!

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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/14/2012 8:11 PM   
45cal


 

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Status: offline 		I was out of rc for 25+ yrs (last radio was kraft single stick on 72-240) got back in 2 yrs ago. went to a well kown hobby shop where they carried spektrum, futaba and hitec, was told no matter what brand I needed to use 6v RX battery pack. I got a DX8 and no problems yet.  If  I had not been told I might had gone with 4.8v packs. at the Perry Ga. show I was going to p/u another rx pack and they said the same about useing 6v rx packs.  had I ordered a radio from a on line store I might ont had been inform about the 6v rx battery use. I am not a computer wizkid but I can see how low battery can be a problem

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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/14/2012 8:34 PM   
DadsToysBG



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Status: offline 		Hey Barracuda, you knew what I meant and I knew what I meant but the trouble with key boards is the 2 is next to the 3 and my typing sucks. Dennis

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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/14/2012 8:43 PM   
SkidMan


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 45cal
...
I am not a computer wizkid but I can see how low battery can be a problem


Using a higher voltage battery pack is definitely a way to avoid brown outs with any brand of receiver. ALL digital receivers will drop out within a relatively small voltage range. A properly sized electric system will prevent the voltage from getting anywhere near that level. If your receiver voltage is even momentarily dropping that low the problem is the power system, not the receiver. (As someone mentioned a volt meter is far too slow to measure very brief voltage drops that could cause a receiver reboot.)

If I remember correctly Futaba and Spektrum receivers will "brownout," reboot, etc. somewhere in the 3.1 - 3.4 volt range. Apparently the exact voltage may vary by model.

A 4-cell NiMH pack is perfectly capable of maintaining that voltage under certain lower loads. People have used them successfully for many years. Higher power servos, digital servos, and a greater number of servos in an airplane, however, can put the battery pack in the boarderline or even dangerously low category.

As the load on the battery increases the voltage will decrease (Ohms Law once you consider internal resistance). One common problem is that the voltage of popular 4-cell NiMH battery packs will drop more under a given current draw than NiCd, LiFe, and A123 batteries. If you put a handful of servos working against significant aerodynamic or mechanical forces the resulting current draw will cause a voltage drop in any battery. The amount of the voltage drop will be greatest with the NiMH batteries - by far.

Adding a 5th cell is one way to insure that the voltage will not drop below that required by the receiver.

Other considerations include properly sized wiring and quality switches.

I wouldn't fly an airplane with an undersized engine so I don't fly with an undersized electric control system.

Personally, I no longer use any NiMh battery packs because of the power requirements of my airplanes and price. (CDI ignition systems may be a very good exception)

Punchline, as I wrote earlier, for a given load, there is a larger voltage drop with NiMh battery packs than similarly sized NiCd, LiFe, and A123 packs (LiFe and A123 also start at a higher voltage).

Paul





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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/14/2012 9:05 PM   
DadsToysBG



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Status: offline 		Considering the power needs of GS planes of a 100cc up on a another forum we put meters on the planes to see amp draw and voltage loss.
A 100cc plane at idle was drawing 2.5amps. also a 100cc flown hard 3-d showed a spike of 9 amps.
Also found that the standard servo plug under certain conditions could lose a 1/2v. these plugs are rated 3amps if they are new. If used many times that will drop.
My 100cc plane flown IMACC for ten minutes uses a total of 600ma, that's 300ma per battery. My engine used 150ma. and the smoke pump used 50ma.
What I have done is to eliminate all servo plugs, using 20ga. extensions and a power panel for power distribution with a power safe switch.
What I'm trying to get at is every planes needs must be meant to keep them safe. Wither they're small or large. What I've learned over the years is that to much never crashed a plane. that applies to battery's, servos or anything else you use. Dennis

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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/14/2012 9:48 PM  1 votes
rmh



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Status: offline 		Many times I see postings which state " I checked the batt and ESC and BEC after the crash and they were all working".
How these tests were done is never related - The fact that they still turned on and worked - appears to be the convincing test.
Real load tests and stress tests?
never mentioned .
When I was trying to get a grip on small electric powered models - I got a fast education on how sustained loads can kill the operation yet a quick restart showed nothing to be wrong- till the power stayed on a for a litle longer . then the sudden failure.
This was with various type NIMH -most were worthless as power cells and theLiPos were 5-10 C.
Even tho some rx show -flashing lites for low power and other flashing lites for signal losses - i suspect these flashing lights are simply a mystery to some users.

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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/15/2012 1:39 AM   
Luchnia


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DadsToysBG

WC your making a blanket statement. Are you saying that the new X is not better. Spektrum was the first, all the other companies had time to see the short comings and incorporate the issues and make changes.
Spektrum has never hid from the customer when a issue arose. They found a fix and gave it to the customer. The new X is as good as anybodies and by some reports even better.
Look at the history of our hobby were it pertains to radios and see the advancements and changes. we had radios that had 6ft antennas, now we have 3''. We had receivers that had to have 12v battery's and rubber bands to move the controls. Then we moved to AM then FM then narrow band and last PCM.
At one time you had to have a radio for each plane, now radios hold 50 planes. The newest radio then was a 6ch. Now you can have 18ch.
All the companies keep getting better and making changes to improve their product.
You can do all the beta testing you want but until you put it out there you never know for sure what will happen. Dennis


Dads, you ever notice how those "problem" radios are sold and the new user never has an issue? Some of us like it when others sell their "problem" radios when we become the beneficiary of a great deal and years of trouble free usage

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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/15/2012 1:46 AM   
Luchnia


 

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ORIGINAL: rmh

Many times I see postings which state '' I checked the batt and ESC and BEC after the crash and they were all working''.
How these tests were done is never related - The fact that they still turned on and worked - appears to be the convincing test.
Real load tests and stress tests?
never mentioned .
When I was trying to get a grip on small electric powered models - I got a fast education on how sustained loads can kill the operation yet a quick restart showed nothing to be wrong- till the power stayed on a for a litle longer . then the sudden failure.
This was with various type NIMH -most were worthless as power cells and theLiPos were 5-10 C.
Even tho some rx show -flashing lites for low power and other flashing lites for signal losses - i suspect these flashing lights are simply a mystery to some users.


Good points - batteries, connectors, switches, etc., are also many areas where problems can potentially crop up. The only perceived "brown out" I ever had in three years was due to a problem battery. The cool thing was my radio was "smart" enough to recoup and allowed me to handle the plane to get it in.

It was simply my fault for running an old battery and trying to get too many years out of it. The battery was several years old when I got it and I ran it for two years for 100s upon 100s of flights. You could test the battery when the plane was still and it was perfect. A lot changes when a plane is flying through the air and utilizing resources.

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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/15/2012 6:12 AM   
straitnickel


 

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Status: offline 		You have a current dropping for some reason. A battey,ESC,servo or servos could be your culprit. I'd investigate till it's found. Mine was a speed controller a 40 Amp motor with a 80 Amp ESC.

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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/15/2012 6:58 AM   
Paul_BB



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Status: offline 		Someone should bench test and compare receivers from different brands under low voltage conditions.
This would bring the debate to a close.
I suppose nobody has a Futaba and also a Spektrum radio system ?
 


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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/15/2012 12:37 PM   
pmerritt


 

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Status: offline 		If you have a DX5 with the 4 single AA cells, those radios have 8 non-locking tabs that can cause resistance in voltage and cause a signal loss to the rx.  I've had it happen 3 times before I figured out that I needed either to wire in a battery pack with a decent connector or upgrade to the DX6i or DX7.  The newer Dx5s have a 4 cell battery pack which has improved that issue tremendously.

Simply enough, as stated in various forms in previous posts, not just LOW voltage but loss of voltage can occur in the power in and power out switch connectors, connectors if one is running regulators, becs etc.  There could be minor corrosion loose crimps in the terminals where vibration from flight causes minor or total electricity loss. 

Those that beat the brand drum are not helpful in regard to your question.  We're talking very small voltage here and it doesn't take must to interfere with that current. 

I still get tickled when we hear the story of "the rx was green and everything was working when we got to the crash".  Well, if that be the case, more than likely the issue is the nut in front of the transmitter!!!

If a connector feels loose, if you have miles of servo leads, if you've hard landed your plane, do regular maintenance.  One doesn't have to have a $100.00 battery either.  One just needs to treat their batteries like they cost $100.00! 



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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/15/2012 12:46 PM   
DougV


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul_BB

Someone should bench test and compare receivers from different brands under low voltage conditions.
This would bring the debate to a close.
I suppose nobody has a Futaba and also a Spektrum radio system ?
 


I’ve own both brands at one point. I can tell you that Futaba receivers will brownout anyware from 2.4 – 2.7 v. and From the Spektrum gear I can only speak about the old DX7/AR7000 sets and they brownout at 3.1 -3.4v. I'm sure newer sets from both brands will have even lower specs. But man you have some serious issues if you go that low. A123 packs its all you need with any system.

Doug.


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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/15/2012 1:44 PM   
rmh



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Status: offline 		NIMH batts, when loaded , drop voltage at an increasing rate as the remaining capacity is reduced
I suspect the fact that this happens is simply unknown to many users .
Really doesn't matter which brand radio is being used .
These drops in voltage will occur quicker and deeper ( steadyon boy) as servos continue to pull needed current.
Tests to see this are very easily done with a hobby type volt/ampmeter .
LiPos gradually drop off till they drop like a rock.
LiIons ( suicide) not worth mentioning
A123
These hold solid till BOUT 3.2 volts per cell is reached - you must learn to determine aprox power /time limits.

We have been running litle one cell Bind n Fly models to motor cutoff point - this typically leaves the LiPo at an unloaded voltage of about 3.3 or therabouts depending on th battery .
The important point being - the ESC and battery are designed to work well- insuring the motor cuts off before the BEC quits- Never seen one fail yet in 3 years of flying em.
and they are DSM2 /DSMX also

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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/15/2012 3:03 PM   
SkidMan


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DougV
I’ve own both brands at one point. I can tell you that Futaba receivers will brownout anyware from 2.4 – 2.7 v. and From the Spektrum gear I can only speak about the old DX7/AR7000 sets and they brownout at 3.1 -3.4v. I'm sure newer sets from both brands will have even lower specs. But man you have some serious issues if you go that low. A123 packs its all you need with any system.

Doug.


I know this does not answer the question about what what voltage each brand of receiver suffers a "Brownout" but it is interesting. There is a video review by a guy who ran both Futaba and Spektrum receivers at lower voltages and I do seem to remember the Futaba working at a lower voltage than Spektrum but I don't remember it being a big difference - especially once your voltage gets down in this range it will be just a short period of time before you lose it all together.

From the Tower Hobbies website Futaba R617FS 7-Channel 2.4GHz FASST Receiver
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&P=SM&I=LXTHL6
Power Requirement: 4.8 - 6V

From the Horizon Hobby website AR7010 7-Channel DSMX Receiver by Spektrum (SPMAR7010)
http://www.horizonhobby.com/products/ar7010-7-channel-dsmx-receiver-SPMAR7010#t2
Voltage Range:     3.5 - 9.6V


In either case brownouts occur when the voltage drops lower than it should EVER be allowed to drop.


Paul



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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/15/2012 4:02 PM   
BarracudaHockey



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Status: offline 		There's a video by Radio Carbon Art about 2.4 radios that he tests a number of popular systems.

For anyone that really wants to know a good over view about how these 2.4 systems work, installation practices, and real world testing the video is worth getting

http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/article_display.cfm?article_id=1437

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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/15/2012 5:24 PM   
Four Stroker


 

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Status: offline 		I will agree with old Dick this time. All processor based receivers will reboot if the operating voltage drops below a threshold - just a fact. Early models had problems. Current name brand models are OK. Reboot should be a small fraction of a second and appear much as a "glitch" used to happen. Be aware that voltage regulators and not the batteries themselves are the main cause of "brownouts". Crap regulators are still on the market. Regulators for RC should be LDO (low drop out) by which I mean less than a tenth of a volt. Many models sold are still 1~2 volts. Switching regulators can be unstable and swing wildly up and down and reboot the RX when the battery is perfectly alright.

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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/15/2012 10:31 PM   
oneaew@msn.com


 

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Status: online 		ive been on 72 since it first came out i have 10 futabas not one bit of trouble think ill stay where iam at after all iam 80

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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/16/2012 8:36 PM   
wallace.tharp


 

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ORIGINAL: neaew@msn.com">oneaew@msn.com

ive been on 72 since it first came out i have 10 futabas not one bit of trouble think ill stay where iam at after all iam 80

Me too, that is no problems with 72 until a guy turned on Ch 15 that I was on. It would be of course, the model I spent the most time and $$$ on paint of any I ever built, A Decathlon with star burst that took 3 complete mask jobs to complete. The guy offered me $100... I laughed at him. The paint, Centure auto enamel cost more than that. I'm on 2.4 JR and bragged about zero problems with it with over 400 flights until 2 weeks back. Lots of good info here on this forum about equipment and not failing to range check etc. Just Sayin. wallace.tharp

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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/16/2012 11:18 PM   
sidgates



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Status: offline 		As has been pointed out earlier in this forum all 2.4GIG radios are computer chip based and will reboot when the voltage supply drops to some known value and that drop can be very fast and very short, not seen by analog volt meters. My solution is to use a separate battery for the receiver and a second battery for the servos. This isolates the receiver from the servo which produces most of the voltage dips. For added security I usually run two packs in parallel for redundancy when the model is capable of carrying the weight.

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RE: Brownouts.... - 11/17/2012 3:25 PM   
DadsToysBG



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Status: offline 		If you take all things into consideration it's not important if the receiver drops off at 2.4 or 3.2v. One is no better then the other. It's the operators fault letting his batteries go that low. To you really think .8v means anything? Dennis

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RE: Brownouts.... - 12/3/2012 11:15 PM   
wallace.tharp


 

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Status: offline 		In my case, the battery was a ThunderPower 3 cell LI PO that cycled well and was well within it's 8 minute flight time, I was at about 6 minutes. May have been that I loaned the battery to a guy that was oing a durration flight in a fun fly a month or so before and he ran it down very low. I had cycled it several times since and used it about 4 or 5 times with no problems. I had always had about 11.3 or 11.4 volts remaining per usualffor my flights. Not saying I didn't learn anything. There is a 1 in 10 chance I dumb-thumbed it, but I don't think so. It was an outside flat spin that I recovered from at a non scary altitude, per usual, but for about 1 secont it did not seem to respond. I could find nothing wrong on the post-op. The only thing I kept on the PA-EX-260 was the Castle esc and the servos. The battery was bent & the shaft broken off the Hacker 30-16L. Thanks for the info. New airframe and new moter and I'm being a little more careful with checking everything including range on my JR 9303 per instructions. wallace.tharp

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RE: Brownouts.... - 12/4/2012 12:19 AM   
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Status: offline 		Wallace.tharp

You will also want to check the ratings on the BEC that is integrated in your ESC. Some integrated BECs are not capable of supplying the power required by a larger number of servos or higher power servos.

Paul


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