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    • All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> Kit Building >> Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods
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    Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods - 8/26/2003 6:56 AM   
    Josey Wales



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    Status: offline     		Great thread!! Im going to build one this winter..I have a Saito 1.20 waiting for it...I was thinking about adding a smoke system.Is the fuse big enough to handle the tank pump extra servo etc?? Im definitely going to do the mods discussed..Dont forget the flight reports when its done!!!

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    Keep it light!!! - 8/27/2003 9:15 AM   
    AdrianM


     

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    Status: offline     		There is plenty of roon in the fuse for a smoke tank and pump. However, you probably don't want to add the weight. The closer to the sub 8lb mark this plane ends up at the better it will fly. The weight of a Saito 1.20, pump and smoke tank will put you way past 8lbs.


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    Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods - 8/28/2003 2:00 AM   
    Josey Wales



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    Status: offline     		You may be right about that..I was only going to put in a 2-4oz tank and was hoping with the extra power of the 1.20 it would still fly ok..I had a CG extra with a ST 90 and a 4oz smoke system that flew great with the added weight..I believe it weighs about a pound more to start with than the GP..

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    Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods - 8/28/2003 7:22 PM   
    AdrianM


     

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    Status: offline     		Finished 50% of the right wing panel last night. Need to install the servo tray and sheet the bottom of the wing (its built up side down).

    Some common knowledge worth restating

    It may go without saying but be sure everything fits perfect before you glue anything. The die cutting is kinda poor on the ribs. I had to sand the spar slots on all of them to get them to seat all the way onto the spars.

    If you notice ribs are not laying flat it probably due to a slight warp in the bass wood spars. Pin the ribs down or weight them down when you glue the spars, trailing edge spars and MAKE SURE they are perfectly flat against the board before you glue the sub leading edge and check again before putting on the leading edge sheeting. Your last chance to check everything is flat is just before gluing the sheeting down. If it crooked when you glue the sheeting you will have a warped wing forever.

    As a rule I weigh down the trailing edge of the wing before I sheet the leading edge. I use 2 1x4x12" pieces of poplar with 5lb dumbbells on them to weigh the down the trailing edge. The blocks spread the weight. Every rib, rib jig spacer and the spar MUST be in perfect contact with the building board before proceeding.


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    Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods - 8/29/2003 1:59 AM   
    Josey Wales



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    Status: offline     		Thats a great idea using the 1x4's for the wing.. Im definitely going to do that..Im still debating about the smoke though

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    Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods - 8/29/2003 5:28 AM   
    Josey Wales



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    Status: offline     		Adrian...Are you going to glue tri-angle for the leading edges on the control surfaces or just shape them like normal..

    Joe

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    Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods - 8/29/2003 11:00 AM   
    AdrianM


     

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    Status: offline     		I shaped them normally. I measured the plan to see how much bevel it called for on the control surfaces, marked a pencil line on the center, top and bottom of each surface and used 12" Great Planes sanding bars in 80, 150 and 220 grit until i had a perfect angle.


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    Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods - 8/29/2003 11:47 PM   
    Build-n-flyer-RCU



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    Status: offline     		Here is a pic of my finished GP Extra. I used Ultracoat paint on the cowl and wheel pants. It was a pain to use. The "true red" paint does not match the "true red" covering perfectly. But it came out OK. No decals yet, I'm not sure how I want to dress it out.

    The first flight is planned for Sat evening!

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    Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods - 8/29/2003 11:49 PM   
    Build-n-flyer-RCU



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    Status: offline     		Here is a picture showing some detail up front and on the bottom. I hope this thing flies!

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    Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods - 8/30/2003 1:53 AM   
    Josey Wales



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    Status: offline     		WOW!! Looks great!! Let us know how it flies!!

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    Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods - 8/30/2003 3:21 AM   
    AdrianM


     

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    Status: offline     		Beautiful job covering!

    How much did your plane weigh? How did your CG work out? Where are your servo's, battery?


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    Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods - 8/30/2003 8:00 AM   
    nav8tor



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    Status: offline     		Here's mine complete. I had it at the field today but I couldn't get the engine to run right so I didn't fly it.

    The finished weight of mine is 8 pounds which includes 4 oz of lead in the nose.

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    Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods - 8/30/2003 8:06 AM   
    nav8tor



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    From: Harleysville, PA,
    Status: offline     		Build-n-flyer, I see you are using a Saito 100 too. Did you break it in yet?

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    Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods - 8/30/2003 8:50 AM   
    Build-n-flyer-RCU



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    Status: offline     		AdrianM-

    I posted the weight with some details on my plane earlier in this thread. Like I said, it ended up at 8.4 lbs (using a calibrated digital fishing scale) and I added 1 oz to the tail to get it to balance. I really didn't work to make it light but I am a little surprised that it came out as heavy as it did.

    nav8tor-

    Your plane looks great!!! Yes I am using a Saito 100 too. I put it on a break-in board and ran 3/4 gallon of fuel through it before mounting it on the plane. And I ran a tank through it in the driveway this afternoon just to make sure that it will be ready for tomorrow.

    One thing I don't like about Saito is the long break-in process. I have a bunch of OS-46's and all of them were ready to fly right out of the box. I learned my lesson about Saito when I mounted a 100 on a 4*60 earlier this year. You have to start out very rich and gradually tune it in through 1/2 dozen tanks of fuel. If you try to go too fast with this it will want to backfire and misbehave. The Saito also seems to run better with a smaller prop until you get through a couple of gallons, so I am starting tomorrow with a 14x8. I eventually switched to a 15x6 on the 4* and plan to do the same on the Extra once the motor smooths out.

    The good news about the Saito 100 is that it is plenty strong. 8.4 lbs or not, my plane was ready to jump off the ground this afternoon when I opened up the throttle.

    Flight report to come...

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    Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods - 8/30/2003 10:35 AM   
    AdrianM


     

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    Status: offline     		For safe flying you don't need to break in a Saito for that long. The idle will be high for the first gallon but it should tick over at ~2200rpm by the 2nd gallon.

    This I how I break in my Saitos:

    1. Pump some after run oil into the engine through the crank case breather nipple, remove the valve covers, oil the rockers and drip some oil down the push rod tubes. You don't know how long your engine sat in a warehouse so this is a preventative measure to be sure your engine is well lubed for the first start.

    2. Leave the low end needle alone and set the main needle to 4 turns out (Really Rich)

    3. Start the engine. You will have to leave the glow heat connected to keep it running this rich. Set the throttle so the engine is running at ~4000RPM...no higher!

    4. Leave it running for 10 minutes, shut down and let it cool to ambient temperature, about 1 hour. This is important as it heat cycles the engine parts and relieves stress in the components.

    5. Repeat 3 and 4 4x so the engine has 40 minutes on it.

    6. Go to the auto parts store get a set of thin feeler Gage's. You will need to get a .003" to set the valve lash correctly. The feeler that come with the engine is goo for telling if the lash is too loose but it is too thick to set the lash to the range listed in the Saito instruction manual. After 40 minutes of running I reset the lash to .003"

    7. Start the engine, go to full throttle, with a tach peak the RPM and back off 700rpm. This is richer than ideal but will ensure proper lubrication as the engine continues to break in in flight. You must have the high end needle set in order to set the low end.

    8. Bring the engine to idle. Since the engine is new it will probably not want to idle below 2800rpm. This is fine and as the engine continues to break in you will be able to lower the idle to ~2200. Quickly advance the throttle to full and note how the engine responds. If it sputters turn in the low end 1/8th of a turn, run full throttle for a few seconds to clear the engine, bring it back to idle and quickly advance the throttle. You will notice that the idle speed will increase as you lean out the low end. Keep on your trim setting so the idle stays at ~2800 rpm. Keep repeating this process until the engine cuts out when you advance the throttle. This means you are too lean on the low end. Richen the needle a 1/4 turn and test the throttle response. You should be all set.

    You may notice that the throttle response will get sluggish and the engine will not want to idle well after about a gallon of running. Re set the idle needle as described above and start to bring the idle down to ~2500rpm. As the engine breaks in it will turn more freely and will require less idle mixture and will be able to run a lower idle rpm's.

    I have 4 Saito ranging from a .72 to a 1.50. I used the above procedure for all of them and I have never had a dead stick. The only minor back fires I have had were during starting when I didn't prime enough.


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    Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods - 8/30/2003 6:26 PM   
    Build-n-flyer-RCU



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    Status: offline     		AdrianM-

    Excellent detail on breaking in the Saito- and all in all its very close to what I did to get mine ready this time. My advice to anyone firing up a Saito for the first time: don't try to short-cut the break-in process! AdrianM's procedure is right on the money!

    One more thing about Saito- I found on the 4* that cheap fuel tubing wants to pop off the connection used on the new style muffler. And this WILL cause dead-sticks. I am using an aftermarket muffler on the Saito on my Extra so I don't expect to have a problem, but I still used high-quality tubing just to be sure.

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    It flew! - 8/31/2003 6:27 AM   
    nav8tor



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    Status: offline     		I got one flight on my Extra tonight.

    After running a couple more tanks through the engine I got it to run reasonably well. I had enough daylight left for one flight and I didn't want to go home a second day without flying it so I put the cowl on and filled the tank.

    I taxied up and down the runway a couple of times and then gave it about 3/4 throttle for take off. It got off pretty quick and climbed straight out. I made a couple of circuits around the field to trim it out. It took 9 clicks of left aileron and 3 clicks of down and it was flying level. I tried a couple of simple aerobatic manuvers (an immelman and a roll) and then brought it around for a landing. It was getting a little hard to see by this point and I didn't want to press my luck. There was a bit of a crosswind but the Extra tacked nicely down the centerline with just a little crab. I had the throttle trim up a little high because the Saito still isn't idling smoothly, and the extra power caused me to land long, past the mid-point of the runway. I put it down a little hard and it bounced once and then settled down on all three wheels.

    The flight lasted 5 minutes. Long enough to trim it out but not long enough to get a feel for how it flies. Weather permitting I'll get another 3-4 flights on it tomorrow.

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    Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods - 8/31/2003 6:38 AM   
    Josey Wales



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    Status: offline     		Sounds great!! Give us more details when you can wring it out!!

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    My Extra flew too! - 8/31/2003 7:37 AM   
    Build-n-flyer-RCU



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    Status: offline     		Great to hear that you have yours up and flying, nav8tor!

    I turned my plane over to the club "IMAC expert" for the first flight this afternoon. He found the recommended rates to be a real handful and took two more flights to get them reasonable. Then he turned it over to me and I got some flights in before it got too dark.

    The Saito 100 ran fine- still set rich, but I already have a good idle.

    My Extra is rock-solid but very, very sensitive to elevator and aileron controls. Snap rolls are crisp, even on low rates set below those recommended. Rolls at high rates are lightning fast. Response to elevator is also very quick but too much elevator will stall the plane, so you have to be a little careful. Basic IMAC maneuvers look great. And my color scheme is very visible.

    The biggest weakness we found is knife-edge flight. It takes a bunch of rudder and a good head of steam to maintain it, and there is a good bit of coupling in the "down" direction. No real surprise, since the stock configuration is not known for being great for knife-edge. I will be watching to see how well AdrianM's rudder mods work out.

    Take-offs and landings were no problem. The plane doesn't slow down quickly but it is very controllable- I already have some slick landings with it under my belt.

    I didn't try to spin it, hover it, or do any 3-D. Had to leave something for tomorrow!

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    Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods - 8/31/2003 8:00 AM   
    Josey Wales



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    Status: offline     		Sounds great!! You think it will do some 3-d with the 100?? I have Saito 1.20 ready for it..Did you get to test out the vertical performance??

    Maybe using a high tourqe servo for the rudder will help a little with knife-edge flight...

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    Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods - 8/31/2003 8:30 AM   
    AdrianM


     

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    Status: offline     		A lot of guys have mentioned in the past that knife edge is better on this plane with a hi torque servo. The plane has enough side area to be able to fly knife well but the stock rudder just dosen't have the area to get the fuse to the proper angle of attack at reasonable speeds.

    After looking at a few more Extras on line even my modified rudder looks tiny!

    I joined the wing panels today. Here are a few observations:

    1. Even 30 minute epoxy gave little time to spread it on, slide everything together, check, recheck, triple check and clamp. Now I know why Master Builder Mark Novak from Znline uses 24 Hour epoxy on critical assemblies. Were I to do it again I would get some 1 hour epoxy.

    2. The wing center section is WAY over built. This wing will never fail at the center section!

    3. Wing joining is an important step so read the instruction a few times and be sure that you have enough weight on the wing to keep it tightly on the jigs.


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    Re: My Extra flew too! - 8/31/2003 2:40 PM   
    nav8tor



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    Status: offline     		Build-n-flyer, Congratulations on your successful first flights.

    The recommended throws looked a bit high to me so I set the rates down a little for first flight. I think I had the high rate aileron set at 80%. During my brief flight the roll rate seemed a little slow even on high rate. I'm going to turn them back up for today's flights. I didn't try high rate elevator.

    I'm anxious to try some knife edge. I set my plane up with that in mind. I added 1" to the bottom of the rudder and went with a high torque coreless servo with pull-pull on the rudder. I'll probably try it today.

    It will be a little while before I try an 3-D or sustained vertical. Gotta finish breaking in the engine.

    Lee

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    Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods - 8/31/2003 6:11 PM   
    Build-n-flyer-RCU



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    Status: offline     		Redrum- I haven't paid much attention to vertical performance yet. I still have my motor running rich and have the small prop on it. It will be another week or two before I can really see what it will do.

    I am a bit spoiled when it comes to power/weight. The plane that I have been mostly flying this summer is a Pizazz with an OS46 and an Ultrathrust muffler. "Space shuttle" take-offs are the norm with this setup. I think the Extra with the Saito 100 should hover without any problem, but it won't be the Pizazz. We'll see about 3-D.

    AdrianM- you are right about knife-edge. The nose just does not want to stay up. I may try borrowing a high-torque servo to see if it really makes a difference.

    The biggest surprise yesterday was the sensitivity of the control surfaces. My plane was a real handful for my "expert" even with the recommended low rates. I will measure the throws this morning to see where we ended up. The good news is that the plane now flies great on low rates. And high rates ought to be a blast once I get used to them. I thought my Nobler was quick on the sticks...

    nav8tor- it sounds like we had much different results on the rate settings. There has to be a reason. I balanced mine right at the recommended point on the plans, how about you?

    AdrianM- sorry we are getting so far away from the "build" theme of this thread. Hopefully our "first flight" experiences will help keep you thinking as you continue on with your project! One question- do you plan to use the strips that glue on to the sides to help round out the sides of the fuse? I did- it made covering trickier but looks good. Do you think that this affects flight characteristics any or is it just cosmetic?

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    Dumb thumbs!! - 8/31/2003 7:19 PM   
    Miloh



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    Status: offline     		I've been holding back due to this being a building thread but with the first flights post going on here I just had to jump in. check post 21 for picts of my bird. Strange thing happened down at the flying field last Sunday, I've never flown an extra or anything close for that matter so this was guaranteed to be exciting but after quite a bit of work on a used plane bought at the LHS it was ready but was I??. Well up it went and very nice I might add no computer radio here but I got it trimmed out and made a few passes and put it down without incident.
    Now here is the bad news I had let it sit for a few hours waiting for the sky to thin out and had decided to just put it up for the day when this guy I'd never seen before just worried the PISS out of me to put it in the sky so he could see it fly.
    OK here we go, taxied out, aimed it into the wind and just hammered it!!!! when it left the ground it was like a different plane!!! rolled to the left very hard so of course I over corrected and got it into a violent back and forth roll. After this went on for what seemed like forever and it was still only about two feet off the ground so I thought pull out of it stupid!!!! and snap!!!!!
    Starboard wing tip. then prop spinner, then port wing tip and pieces flew EVERYWHERE!!!!! I don't know what the hell happened but I GOT A BAG FULL OF TRASH FROM IT, hehe.
    But have no fear it rebuilds pretty fast and will be flying again soon.
    Any experts with recommendation's for the next attempt ???

    Miloh.

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    Great Planes Extra 300 .60 Build/Mods - 9/1/2003 5:42 AM   
    AdrianM


     

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    From: Palm Harbor, FL, USA
    Status: offline     		Build-n-flyer - This thread is supposed to be a central resource for guys building this plane. Everything said so far is valuable. Post anything important that has to do with the Extra.

    Miloh - Sounds like the CG was too far back and or you lifted off with too little air speed. The rolling sounds like too little air speed on lift off and the pitch instability sounds like too rearward a CG.


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