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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/22/2011 7:56 PM   
raptureboy


 

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Status: offline 		Taken from the IMAA safety code

3.3 After completing a Safety Review, the aircraft may be flown as often as the pilot desires,
provided that they follow the chosen frequency control standard. However, if the airplane is
involved in an accident, no matter how minor, and the pilot wishes to fly again, the aircraft shall go
through another Safety Review.

3.4 Flight Testing: All aircraft are to have been flight tested and flight trimmed with a minimum of
six (6) flights before the model is allowed to fly at an IMAA Sanctioned event.


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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/24/2011 11:57 PM   
littlecrankshaf



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quote:

ORIGINAL: raptureboy

Taken from the IMAA safety code

3.3 After completing a Safety Review, the aircraft may be flown as often as the pilot desires,
provided that they follow the chosen frequency control standard. However, if the airplane is
involved in an accident, no matter how minor, and the pilot wishes to fly again, the aircraft shall go
through another Safety Review.

3.4 Flight Testing: All aircraft are to have been flight tested and flight trimmed with a minimum of
six (6) flights before the model is allowed to fly at an IMAA Sanctioned event.


I am sure many members do not know about these rules.

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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/25/2011 1:30 AM   
bjor



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A flying friend asked me if he could maiden his PZ Wildcat BNF at an upcoming E Fly In; I said I didn’t know for sure.



Jumping in late on this thread - but have I missed something here? The guy is asking to maiden a Park Zone foamy park flyer at an E fly in. Can he not just take it to a local footy field to try it out first?.


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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/25/2011 2:24 AM   
mongo



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Status: online 		wouldn't that just be way to simple a thing to do, now.


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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/25/2011 6:41 AM   
Silent-AV8R



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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf


quote:

ORIGINAL: raptureboy

Taken from the IMAA safety code

3.3 After completing a Safety Review, the aircraft may be flown as often as the pilot desires,
provided that they follow the chosen frequency control standard. However, if the airplane is
involved in an accident, no matter how minor, and the pilot wishes to fly again, the aircraft shall go
through another Safety Review.

3.4 Flight Testing: All aircraft are to have been flight tested and flight trimmed with a minimum of
six (6) flights before the model is allowed to fly at an IMAA Sanctioned event.


I am sure many members do not know about these rules.



To be clear those are the rules that IMAA uses and they do not apply except to their members at their events. They are not general AMA-wide rules.

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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/25/2011 1:07 PM   
jrb1


 

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Status: offline 		The best interpretation; but not likley observed: a BNF purchased at an event, can not be flown during the event.

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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/25/2011 1:13 PM   
smithcreek



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ORIGINAL: Thomas B

The AMA told Jim that it would be ok to stop the sanction at some point in the afternoon.



What exactly does it mean to "stop the sanction"? Does that mean "stop the insurance"? I'm no lawyer, but if there was a lawsuit and I was an insurance company looking to deny a payment I'd sure as heck consider it one and the same.

Other than the example you give of some tiny park flyer with miniscule chance of causing harm, maidening a plane at an event is a stupid, selfish and arrogant thing to do. Just this weekend our club put on an event as part of a much larger public event. On Friday evening we set up our field. Usually we don't do any flying, but one members had brought along an electric with a wingspan of about 50" or so, probably weighed in the 5-6 pound range. He asked if he could fly it and the CD said sure, our field was clear. He hand launched it and from the start something was wrong, didn't seem to want to turn. About 100 yards from us there was some kind of act performing for a crowd of several hundred people. The plane passed directly over the crowd, then slowly turned back to our field. Once it got over the field it went straight in, pieces flying everywhere. Very lucky it didn't go in while it was over the crowd. Turns out it was a maiden and the pilot didn't bother to mention it to the CD.

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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/25/2011 3:09 PM   
littlecrankshaf



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf


quote:

ORIGINAL: raptureboy

Taken from the IMAA safety code

3.3 After completing a Safety Review, the aircraft may be flown as often as the pilot desires,
provided that they follow the chosen frequency control standard. However, if the airplane is
involved in an accident, no matter how minor, and the pilot wishes to fly again, the aircraft shall go
through another Safety Review.

3.4 Flight Testing: All aircraft are to have been flight tested and flight trimmed with a minimum of
six (6) flights before the model is allowed to fly at an IMAA Sanctioned event.


I am sure many members do not know about these rules.



To be clear those are the rules that IMAA uses and they do not apply except to their members at their events. They are not general AMA-wide rules.


Thanks...Maybe I should have made that more clear but I figured since it was a direct reply to a post that clearly indicates that, I felt most people might realize that... I didn't feel many second graders were reading here...

But that does bring up a point of contention and give some insight to one of the many reasons IMAA just might disappear... A run of the mill AMA Big Bird event isn't encumbered with all that stuff and there isn't any reason the same type giant scale planes can't participate in the AMA BB...

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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/25/2011 4:27 PM   
bradpaul



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ORIGINAL: smithcreek


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thomas B

The AMA told Jim that it would be ok to stop the sanction at some point in the afternoon.



What exactly does it mean to ''stop the sanction''? Does that mean ''stop the insurance''? I'm no lawyer, but if there was a lawsuit and I was an insurance company looking to deny a payment I'd sure as heck consider it one and the same.


I think you have that backwards...................... technically if you maiden your plane during an event you are in violation of the safety code and have given the insurance a reason to deny coverage. If the CD "stops the sanction" you are then free to maiden with out violating the rule. Of course if there are spectators present you may still be in violation............. but in any case these are "technicalities" and considering the airframe and the skill level of the pilot, you may, or may not as an individual accept the risk.

In any case the AMA coverage is secondary to any individual liability insurance.

Brad

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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/25/2011 4:38 PM   
littlecrankshaf



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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradpaul






I think you have that backwards...................... technically if you maiden your plane during an event you are in violation of the safety code and have given the insurance a reason to deny coverage. If the CD ''stops the sanction'' you are then free to maiden with out violating the rule. Of course if there are spectators present you may still be in violation............. but in any case these are ''technicalities'' and considering the airframe and the skill level of the pilot, you may, or may not as an individual accept the risk.

In any case the AMA coverage is secondary to any individual liability insurance.

Brad


He has it backwards??? You seem to say essentially the same thing...

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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/25/2011 5:09 PM  1 votes
loser


 

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Status: offline 		I think this rule is slightly dated and could possibly need revised. I think the rule was written "back in the day" when guys actually built their planes and all or almost all were glow/gas powered and weighed a few pounds or more. With the huge popularity of the micro electrics out now, many of which are given away as prizes at events, this rule may be a bit "tight"....just my opinion. I am a CD and would have no problem with a modeler of average piloting skills winning a micro flyer at an event and flying it that day. I would however have a problem with someone flying any glow, gas or electric plane larger than a "micro/mini" size at a sanctioned event which has not been succesfully maidened.

Just my $0.02..

Steve

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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/25/2011 7:53 PM   
squeakalong


 

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Status: offline 		What does the size of the maidened aircraft have to do with the safety issue and rule of no maiden flights at sanctioned events? Can someone not wait one day to maiden an unflown model aircraft, or do so after the event? When I maiden a new aircraft I take the time to do it correctly, safely and with a thorough check-up after the first flight...before another flight is made. Why the rush to satisfy someone wanting to break a sensible rule? As a CD I'd think you'd be wanting to stand up for ALL the rules promoting safety and common sense and not agreeing to exceptions because someone thinks their flying is more important than the safety of all the other event participants and spectators.

Soft landings,

Joe

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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/25/2011 10:18 PM   
cj_rumley


 

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ORIGINAL: squeakalong

.......As a CD I'd think you'd be wanting to stand up for ALL the rules promoting safety and common sense and not agreeing to exceptions .......


You are incorrectly (IMHO) equating common sense to rigidly enforcing rules. Bots always follow rules explicitly and yet possess no common sense. Rules of necessity cover general situations, not all, and that is where common sense applies. It's quite possible for a CD to follow all the rules and still allow an unsafe model aircraft to fly. Good CDs have common sense and apply it to to situations not considered by the rule makers. It works both ways.

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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/25/2011 11:42 PM   
squeakalong


 

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Status: offline 		Well now......that was sure worth reading......

Soft landings,

Joe

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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/26/2011 12:50 AM   
Erich_F



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Status: offline 		Well, you guys better stay clear of IRCHA. It's just as much a funfly as a trade show. New helicopters are taking to the air every minute of the event, as well as newly repaired ones. Many new pilots bring their new birds to IRCHA and many other smaller events around the country to get expert assistance in setting up and tuning their models. I guess it's understood in the heli community that a heli that isn't going to fly isn't going to get very far, but there are still inherent dangers.

So who wants to be the one to stand up in front of 980 helicopter pilots registered at IRCHA and tell them they can't fly their new birds bought at one of the dozen or more vendors at the event? Rules or not, you'd be laughed off the site. It'd be like enforcing a dress code at a tractor-pull

Oh, and what do combat pilots do at their events? They don't make repairs and continue in the event? Yeah right...

Just sayin'

< Message edited by Erich_F -- 7/27/2011 6:45 PM >

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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/26/2011 4:24 AM   
Bozarth


 

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ORIGINAL: Erich_F

...Oh, and what do combat pilots do at their events? They don't make repairs and continue in the event? Yeah right...

Just sayin'


And at pattern contests, pylon races, fun-flys, indoor electric 3-D events, and yes, even at TAG days! Exactly Erich.

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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/27/2011 3:19 PM   
littlecrankshaf



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozarth


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erich_F

...Oh, and what do combat pilots do at their events? They don't make repairs and continue in the event? Yeah right...

Just sayin'


And at pattern contests, pylon races, fun-flys, indoor electric 3-D events, and yes, even at TAG days! Exactly Erich.


Good examples.

Very common occurrences actually... Just about every event I've been at...

Hmmm= Bad rule IMO...


Where does the rule wording as it exists now leave us???

Yes, it seems we would have been overall better shape without it than with it... but since the lying dog has now been thoroughly kicked... we are in the proverbial "painted corner"...we need to quit doing that!!!!


Some serious rework is the only way out now... nothing new...we see it at every level of government...one rule begets another... until grid lock occurs... sound familiar??

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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/27/2011 6:26 PM   
jrb1


 

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Status: offline 		Even at the NATS.

From Willow Grove 1972; I was there somewhere in this photo – a great time.

We built a pop can tower must have been 10’ tall.

Camping on site and eating at the Navy Mess was cool.

Did Glenview in 73 too.

Is the NATS a sanctioned event from start to finish?


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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/27/2011 6:40 PM   
cj_rumley


 

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ORIGINAL: jrb1

Even at the NATS.

From Willow Grove 1972; I was there somewhere in this photo – a great time.

We built a pop can tower must have been 10’ tall.

Camping on site and eating at the Navy Mess was cool.

Did Glenview in 73 too.

Is the NATS a sanctioned event from start to finish?



Great post, and what a wonderfully nostalgic picture. Do you happen to know if it is displayed at the AMA museum or elsewhere in the AMA HQ complex?


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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/27/2011 6:44 PM   
jrb1


 

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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/27/2011 6:59 PM   
cj_rumley


 

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Insert w/Aug MA AMA, The 1st 75 years; downloaded frome here: http://www.modelaviation.com/images/article/AMA75-ONLINESUPPLEMENT.pdf .


Thanks, certainly I'm not the only one here that is interested.

Btw, I was so diverted by it I didn't reply to your Q. Can't answer it directly, but as a related matter some non-event flying has recently been allowed at the IAC, with 2.4 GHz radios only, in areas removed from those in use by the event(s). Obviously not all event venues could support that MO.


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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/27/2011 7:13 PM   
jrb1


 

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Status: offline 		Guess there’s lots of ways to skin a cat and skirt the published word – even @ IAC!

One idea might be allowing a set time within a sanctioned event for test flights including maidens say at during lunch?

Then folks who’ve made a repair, a set-up change, or someone that bought a BNF from vendor at the event could all be in compliance.


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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/28/2011 1:01 AM   
Thomas B


 

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ORIGINAL: smithcreek


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thomas B

The AMA told Jim that it would be ok to stop the sanction at some point in the afternoon.



What exactly does it mean to ''stop the sanction''? Does that mean ''stop the insurance''? I'm no lawyer, but if there was a lawsuit and I was an insurance company looking to deny a payment I'd sure as heck consider it one and the same.

Other than the example you give of some tiny park flyer with miniscule chance of causing harm, maidening a plane at an event is a stupid, selfish and arrogant thing to do. Just this weekend our club put on an event as part of a much larger public event. On Friday evening we set up our field. Usually we don't do any flying, but one members had brought along an electric with a wingspan of about 50'' or so, probably weighed in the 5-6 pound range. He asked if he could fly it and the CD said sure, our field was clear. He hand launched it and from the start something was wrong, didn't seem to want to turn. About 100 yards from us there was some kind of act performing for a crowd of several hundred people. The plane passed directly over the crowd, then slowly turned back to our field. Once it got over the field it went straight in, pieces flying everywhere. Very lucky it didn't go in while it was over the crowd. Turns out it was a maiden and the pilot didn't bother to mention it to the CD.



A better way to put it is to schedule the event hours so that the unflown models can be test flown outside of event hours. Doing so basically "stops" the sanction.

As I recall, the Jim Rice Junkyard Wars event had the scheduled times something like 9am till 3PM. At 3pm the event is "officially" over. The sanction is stopped. The unflown models are then allowed to be flown, just like any model is allowed to be maidened at a normal flying field. The event folks take the extra precaution of annoucing to all present that experimental models are going to be terst flow...stay at your own risk.

Seems like a sensible solution to me.

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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/28/2011 1:12 AM   
Thomas B


 

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ORIGINAL: squeakalong

What does the size of the maidened aircraft have to do with the safety issue and rule of no maiden flights at sanctioned events? Can someone not wait one day to maiden an unflown model aircraft, or do so after the event? When I maiden a new aircraft I take the time to do it correctly, safely and with a thorough check-up after the first flight...before another flight is made. Why the rush to satisfy someone wanting to break a sensible rule? As a CD I'd think you'd be wanting to stand up for ALL the rules promoting safety and common sense and not agreeing to exceptions because someone thinks their flying is more important than the safety of all the other event participants and spectators.

Soft landings,

Joe



Actually, size does matter...a sub 4 oz electric parkflyer is vanishingly unlikely to cause any harm if it hits person or property. A sub one ounce Parkzone micro electric is even less likely to hurt anything. Larger models are more likely to do damage.

At the SMALL Steps event event in 2010, I maidened 4 small electric models at the event, outside of event sanction hours. Weights ranged from 6 oz to 3 lbs. Zero issues on the first flights, had many flawless flights later durig the event.

I agree that maidens should be done outside of event hours. However, for all practical purposes, there are just as many people present at the event at 7:59 in the morning or 5:01 in the evening as there are at 8:01 and 4:59, two minutes later or earlier.

Actually, I think the no maiden rule needs to be tweaked to allow the maiden of harmless small electric models during sanctioned events.


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RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event? - 7/28/2011 1:25 AM   
Thomas B


 

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Status: offline 		A general comment:

It is worth remembering the root source of the "no maiden at a sanctioned event" rule.

Many years ago, perhaps the 1960s or 1970s, when the hobby was much less diverse than it is now, there were a very few notorious scale R/C model competitors that never had time to properly maiden their models prior to events. they spent every minute before the event making the perfect model. Also, they were much more builders than flyers. The result was that these few notorious folks often crashed, and often crashed spetacularly, during the these competition events during the first flight of their new scale model, commonly including the AMA Nationals.

That is the prime reason we have that rule today. That rule was not designed for micro electric indoor and parkfly models, modern R/C helicopters, well proven ARF and RTF models. It was not designed for the type of fly-in class C non competition events we have so many of today. It was designed and implemented due to a small number of R/C scale competitors that had flying skills and currency issues and building time constraints....

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