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Overall Finish Order????? - 7/26/2011 4:50 PM   
Tbatt


 

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Status: offline 		I'm looking for input on how different clubs determine the overall finish order of a race.

We have tried several methods and each has it's own pros and cons.

If you run a race and use total points at the end you usually wind up with tie breakers. Those ties can be broken with fly-offs, fast times or cuts.

For our first race of the year we took the top eight points leaders (after tie breaker fly-offs) and made up an A main and B main final race. This worked well and was liked by several pilots.

We have also done a complete elimination round where everyone races in main heats that are broken up into groups according to their points standing. The lowest point guys race in a four plane heat and the winner moves up to race the next higher points group, so on and so on. This works well to give someone that had a bad day to be able to work his way back up. It also has some very good racing as guys that are around the same skill level race each other.

I'm just looking for feedback on what works for you in your part of the pylon racing world.

Tim

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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/26/2011 5:34 PM   
dasintex



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Status: offline 		The Club 40 League in Texas mostly uses the 2nd method you described; ties are broken with Fastest Time on any round flew that day; I have also seen a race where no mains were flew, top spots according to points accumulated for the day, same tie breaking method.

Both have their Pros/Cons; I will say one drawback to the Elimination Mains style; let’s say the top 10 advance, and the last four guys of the 10 fly the first Mains or ‘C-Mains’; the guy that was 10th for day wins ‘C-Mains’ and advances, and he wins the next elimination round or ‘B-mains’ then he ends up winning ‘A-Mains’ or the final, placing First overall for the race that Day; heck of a climb up the ladder, but I have seen it and it’s possible, meanwhile the top 3 Guys, flew strong all day, placed in the top 3, only to be beat by the guy in tenth.

Whereas the other style does not have that probability; you have to fly strong and consistent all day and are awarded by placing at the top at the end of day, no chance to be swept off the podium by someone at the bottom.


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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/26/2011 6:00 PM   
JohnMcGowan


 

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Status: offline 		Tim, I guess I'll be the guinea pig and lead off if thats ok?
Personally Tim, I am in favor of having an A Main and a B Main at the end of all the flown rounds. If you have any ties pending, you fly them off BEFORE the start of the Mains.
You have to earn what you get and earn the place in the race.

Say for instance you and me are tied for 4th place at the end of the scheduled 5 or 6 rounds. You and I then go up and duke it out and you were the winner of the tie breaker. At that point, this means that you then are able to fly in the BIG RACE for ALL the marbles, the A Main.
I then drop down and am able to compete with the other 3 guys who had earned enough points to be able to fly in the B Main. To me , it gives anyone who was good enough to have flown in EITHER MAIN race a good 1 in 4 chance for the pilot to take home the 1st Place hardware of the Main race that they flew in.

I would say to have the B Main race first, then have the Grand Finale A Main race last to close out the day.
I guarantee that you will have pilots that have already flown for the day or getting ready to fly in their Main race and spectators alike crowd up to the fence to watch both of these Main races !

Its like going to a good short track stock car race here in the South, they run the heat races, then after those are run, the points are determined and the cars are called out to the track and placed accordingly, then the highlight of the night's Feature race ( the A Main) begins.... Folks are on the edge of their seats, beers are spilling, popcorn and peanuts is flying everywhere and the crowds in the stands are hooping and hollering to yell praises and well wishes to their favorite driver ....All the folks in the stands rise to their feet as the flagman drops the green flag and the race is ON!!!!!!!! It just dont get much better than that!

Thats just my .02 worth on it.
Thanks for asking, hopefuly more will give their thoughts about it.
Remember people, if you dont comment and let others know what your thoughts are, its assumed that you have no opinion about it. Let Tim hear from you.

Thanks.
John

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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/26/2011 6:07 PM   
dasintex



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Status: offline 		You mentioned using a 'Fly Off' to break any ties, why not 'Fastest Time' on any round flown that day, why fly another round and risk a crash or midair or mess up your engine or something and not get a chance at the final, when in fact if you were the one with the fastest time would advance without risking your plane needlessly.

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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/26/2011 6:35 PM   
JohnMcGowan


 

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Status: offline 		Dast, its been because some times we didnt have stopwatches to record the times.

Another thing about having the A and B Mains is... at the end of the day BEFORE the Main races starts, both the pilots and spectators knows this is going to be the final races and they gear up with excitement for it instead of saying...Ok guys, that last race was the final one and here is who won. No one knows where they stood before announcing that.
Again , thats just my .02 cents worth
Thanks,
John

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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/26/2011 7:07 PM   
dasintex



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Status: offline 		Yes, no stop watches would be a problem, couldn't they count on their fingers and toes, ha ha couldn't help myself!

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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/26/2011 7:21 PM   
still4given



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Status: offline 		We typically don't run Trophy races. We award strictly on points. Mainly because the wind in our area usually dictates when we will stop flying. So, we usually keep flying heats until we just can't fly any longer. Then we tally up the points and pay out the money. Oh, did I mention that we have cash prizes for the top three places. In our circuit, the club gets half the entry fees and the other half is paid out to the winners. 50% for first, 30% for second and 20% for third. No trophies to buy and everyone comes out happy.

The good thing about no trophy race is that if you fly well during the day, you could lose you plane to a mid-air in the final heat and still end up in the money. That doesn't happen if there is a trophy race.

Blessings, Terry

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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/26/2011 7:31 PM   
JohnMcGowan


 

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Status: offline 		Terry, whats a typical payout for 1st ,2nd and 3rd for a day's race? And I do realize its dependant on how many pilots shows up too. Im Just curious is all.

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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/26/2011 11:05 PM   
Tbatt


 

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Status: offline 		We will most likely be using stopwatches from now on so a faster time could be used for tie breaking. What do you do when you have a bad time/timer (someone goofs up and the time is bad)? That could be a problem. We race so fast that the timers have a hard time keeping up......

Keep the comments and ideas coming! This is good!!!

I'm all for going to a A Main and B Main race ending as long as the majority of the participating clubs agree to it. Can we sing Cum-ba-ya now?

Tim

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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/27/2011 12:56 AM   
codbucket


 

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Status: offline 		Tim, I am sad to say that I, and others have witnessed the decline of club 40 since it began in our region. For instance, at the Huntsville race in 2010, there were over 20 pilots entered to race. One year later at that very same venue, there were about 8 pilots entered. I believe the reason for that decline is the fact that the "scoring system", seems to change at every race, and sometimes mid-race, and it is done behind the curtain, instead of being transparent like it should be. Use the K.I.S.S principle, leave the computer at home where it belongs, put up a dry erase board with every pilot's name on it, and write down the scores after every race. Simple, no smoke and mirrors, no voodoo or hocus-pocus. The CD should not race, and the score keeper should not race either. Unfortunately, several pilots at my club have pretty much quit racing club 40 for the simple reason that they know there is no chance of them ever winning, because you just can't ever tell who the magic scoring computer might randomly pick to win. I always thought, and read that club 40 was an entry level, club type of informal competition, that the common man could fly in, for minimal cost, and have a lot of fun doing it. But, it has devolved into something else entirely that the original organizers I'm sure never intended. I have read, and believe that I understand the rules, and unless my interpretation is wrong, club 40 is supposed to be flown with a stock plane, and a stock motor. Myself, and others believe that several pilots are flying modded engines. I mean, c'mon man, when some guy out pulls you by a lap or more he has to have a little something under the hood other than stock. Why not break out a "modded" class for these people seperate from the majority of us who do fly stock? Some people I guess sit up at night working on their engines in order to win a particle board plaque, in an event that was concieved so that every flier could race and have fun doing it! If those few are going to take club 40 that seriously, please jump into Q-500 or 424, and let us who just want to have fun fly club 40. Club 40 is broken, and if you all don't do something quick, it will cease to exist. I mean, for Pete's sake why else do you think we went from 25 pilots per race, to 8? If the pilots racing thought they were being treated fairly, and had as much of a chance at winning based on pilot skill, as it was intended, then don't you think we would still have 25 pilots, instead of just 8? If I am racing and I just fly bad, or crash, or my engine fades, I can come to grips with that reality, thats just the breaks. But when I race and during the race I don't even know what my score is, and after the race, I can't figure out how, or why someone won, well, it leaves you feeling less than fresh let's say. Please people, let's get back to running these races the way that club 40 was intended, so it will not die. Thanks, Tom C.

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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/27/2011 1:00 AM   
dortegon


 

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Status: offline 		Well after reading the many thoughts that have been submited perhaps this might work.

Run all the rounds as normal and when done determine who the top 4 finishers are.

No Ties: Then these top 4 race one final heat and how they finish determines the ending position.

Ties: Thoes tied for a given position would race and the winner would hold the position they wrer racing for.
This would continue until all ties are broken for any position then the final four would race to set the top 4 finishers.
Say two pilots have cuts in this final race then they would have to fly one more time to see who would get 4th place.

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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/27/2011 2:02 AM   
bleudawg


 

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Status: offline 		First off the scoring is at the least of my concerns. Scoring is very simple just like NASCAR but at the end of 4 heats who ever comes in the top 8 should make it into the playoffs/chase so to speak. not some guy that was in 21st. this can be done where everyone can see it because obviously in NASCAR your pit leader isn't being withheld information about his guys position or points standings lol. If we dont have set rules and standards then its really not competing at all its spend money crash our planes and have no idea how or why someone just won that race. Now to the good stuff. I choose not to participate in club 40 anymore until the racers that choose they need to spend the extra time and money in this event to have to find an edge to win will man up and fly from the box or create there own class.. You guys that do, Can admit it or not but i promise you and stress that it clearly visible and obvious when the best pilot isn't winning. the best racer in NASCAR isn't all over the track. its the fastest line not the fastest plane gentlemen. you guys that modify your planes need your own class. If not i know a way to fix this so that this event doesn't die, the modifiers can not race and the other 20 that want too can race. It takes the fun out of it for me knowing no matter how well of line i run these guys are a lap faster and this is suppose to be an out of the box race. WERE NOT WINNING MONEY GUYS ITS TIME TO LET GO!!!!!!. I love pylon racing but investing money to know unless you change your head shim,port and polish your head,cut weight and anything else you can figure out to get an edge is the only way you'll compete is a JOKE. Especially when there's no money involved guys. FLY EVERYTHING OUT OF THE BOX ENGINE AND PLANE NO EXCEPTIONS AND THE BEST PILOT WINS PERIOD. WITH LEGIT POINTS STANDINGS. Otherwise like i said we dont need a modifiers class we can move on without you. If its clearly obvious that someone is that much faster your engine comes apart. We dont need a challenge or 20 bucks to see that someone is that much faster when there all over the place when flying. If they were flying a smooth line with that fast plane they would be 3 laps faster and that's ridiculous. huhuhuhu you won a plaque. DONT BE SCARED BRING IT PEACEEEEEEEEE.

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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/27/2011 2:44 AM   
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Status: offline 		I havent been a real competitive person as far as flying events go, Id be just as happy having a fly in with no competition. I have participated in a couple of club 40 races just to see what they were like and the early races were not all that bad. I agree with the others here that some people just take this event way to seriously and it has almost turned me away from flying in anymore races as well. There are just a hand full of people that are consistantly faster than everyone else and it seems like they are always the ones scoring in the top five or top eight positions. Even though the rules right now spell out a lot of different regulations, it still seems like people are searching for any kind of loop hole to allow them to modify their engine or plane just enough to give them a slightly better edge over the other racers. On a side note, there is another aspect of the race that im not incredibly fond of. It might just be me but I dont really enjoy putting those colored stickers all over my wing in order to race. I understand why they are being used to help identify the planes and speed things up a little bit, but, they just have way too much adhesive on them. They are almost impossible to remove in one peice cleanly and they dont leave the covering looking all that well once they are removed.



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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/27/2011 3:46 AM   
bleudawg


 

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Status: offline 		Man Dave I forgot all about them stupid stickers that ruin your covering or you have to soak it in lighter fluid or some sort of flammable liquid to get it off Lmao. Thx for the reminder.

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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/27/2011 3:49 AM   
Corsairman22


 

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Status: offline 		I'm not sure how we break ties up here.  The top three pilots only get plaques each race so ties are no big deal.   We fly 8 races each year and we fly for total points for the year.  We fly Mains races at the end but its really just like another round to most of us.  The bigger problem like most club40 clubs is attendance.   We started with about 17 or 18 pilots, but we are lucky to get 12. Out of the 18 pilots there has only been 4 of us that have made the first four races.   That's why I'm trying to push what they do in the NMPRA.  I have being running along side of the total point
that Fabio puts out after every race is Stan Douglas  point calculation grid. You then only take the best six races.  
I also tried to put out  three different classes, but it was a little complicated for some and it didn't pass.  It would have awarded prizes for the top guys as well as others that would never break the top 5 plus new guys as well.     Everyone races everyone and the matrix stays the same, but everyone would compete for points in there own class.   We lost a few guys from last year and some guys that signed up never showed up.  Keeping it fun and easy is the main theme we try to push.  Ties up here are really never brought up.  
 
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< Message edited by Corsairman22 -- 7/27/2011 5:08 AM >

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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/27/2011 4:04 AM   
Ken Erickson



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Status: offline 		Tim, and all, here are my answers. They are just mine, if no on else likes them, OK.

As for the points by:
dasintex: When I ran the races, and how I run them now, there are no "Elimination Mains". Every Tom, Dick and Harry was in a Main/Feature, according to points or, better yet, times. There is less chance of ties when using times. Some people just like that rise to the top. Could be chance or could be some deliberate sandbaging.

Unfortunately getting "Times" is not that easy. That gets much easier when you have Lap Counters sitting in chairs counting the laps. Currently, we don't have enough people at the races to do that here, so we don't try for "Times".

John McGowan: You hit the nail right on the head. When this was first done at San Antonio Prop Busters, I called it"County Fair Dirt Track Jalopy Racing with RC Airplanes". However, I run the day having everyone in a Main/Feature. We had F, E, D, C, B, and A features, in that order. I hope to again.

Funny thing, we had some top-level AMA racers with us in SA. Those guys don't cheat!!! Only wannabees cheat!!!!

Originally, it was "Stock, Stock, Stock". Actually, it still is, except for the Tanks, Remote Needle Valves and Head Shims. I'm guessing the tanks may get a lot of discussion this fall.

dasintex: Most of the guys currently racing here, and one of them is a National Competitor in USRA, (I hope that is the org.) just want to fly more heats, but I get your point about the risk. I just believe your fastest time is a better indicator of your skill level than the accumulated points.

John: Yes, the excitement builds up. However, the closely matched guys in the E Main also give the crowd (what crowd?) an exciting race.

dasintex: OK

Still4given: Terry, and all, At first, I gave nothing. Then, I printed up some 1 inch square stickers, protected by 100 mph tape, with date, location and placement in Mains , Fast Time, and High Points. I will continue that "Bragging Rights" system. We charge $10.00, include free lunch for pilot and caller and give no prizes. Just me.

John

Tim: When we do not have enough people to use stop watches, we don't use them. When we have enough to use them, we won't, we will use the JudgeTimer program. We fought through what you guys are experiencing, and then Stan Douglas came with his program and we were thankfull. And the program has been inproved.

codbucket:: Yes, when we started this, it was hoped that the hot shots would move on the 424. Heck, they would already have a legal engine. But, there still are not enough 424 races. How about promoting some 424 races?????

dortegon: Remember my statement about Tom, Dick and Harry. Let me ad Jack, Jill and Peter. Everybody!!!! Don't cater to the Hot Shots, cater to the Newbies, if anyone.

bleudawg:If I had had the money, I would have done like IROC, You show up, show your AMA card, pay a fee, and use the airplanes provided by the race promoter. Of course, that fee would have to include a deposit on the equipment. But, that probably would not have worked, I do not, and never will, know. Unless some of you have tha where-wit-all to do it.

david george212: lots of good points. Early races are not that bad.
Also, early on, we had an engine claim rule. In order to claim an engine, you had to have raced on that day. Then you could claim any engine for an amount about 20% higher than the retail plus tax cost of the engine.
The solution to the stickers has been known for years. Tim has espoused the use of Contac Transparent Shelf Liner and then the stickers. The first year, we tried everything, even the tape the combat guys use.

Well, there I am, for what it may be worth.

Ken Erickson

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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/27/2011 4:17 AM   
Pilotja5


 

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Status: offline 		Tim,

I will throw my 2 cents into the fire as well.

I will say that I loved the way D2 ran the Alabaster race, where you race all day.  At the end of all the heat races, you take the top 8, which would consist of 5th-8th place in the B-Main, and 4th-1st in the A-Main.  If there are any ties in the points, let the people race it off in the air.  This way, you don't have to use judgement on times, etc, let the best man go for it.

After you get your qualifiers, you would race the B-Main, then after teh B-Main, race the A-Main.  That is your finishing order for the day. 

We could race as many heat races as we like which would lower the amount of ties.

Also one other thing, I feel that we should post the results at the end of each round of heat races.  I know it would make the day longer, but it would help us realize where we are in the points and also if there are any typos (we are only human) we could resolve them prior to the next round of heat races.  This way everyone knows where they stand and know that there weren't any typos or errors in recording the scores at the end of the day.  I know I have a hard time remembering all my scores and places I have finished in a long day.

I hope this helps.  I did hear that the stop watches worked very well and I look forward to getting up there and racing with the watches as well.

I challenge you all on here, speak up.  It is our chance to let them know what we enjoyed, not liked, etc.  I can't wait to see you all at another race.  Have fun and fly safe.

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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/27/2011 5:14 AM   
codbucket


 

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Status: offline 		Mr. Erickson, you make some good points, and it sounds like you have been at this for quite a while now. I regret to say that down here in red neck country, it is NOT stock, stock, stock. We have 4 or 5 pilots on the circuit who among them at least a couple of them sometimes fly an erratic line around the course, and will pull off from a man flying a smooth, consistent line with a stock engine by a full lap or more.
The mysterious unseen scoring system that is used here does very much cater to the hot shots, and not the newbies. What message does that send to an average sport flyer who wants to have some fun, and try his hand at club 40? Some radical changes are needed right away, or club 40 will continue to decline in our area until it dies out. What a shame that would be.

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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/27/2011 5:28 AM   
codbucket


 

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Status: offline 		Pilotja5, I have to agree with you that D2 ran the most fair club 40 race at his club in Alabaster. Be it fun fly, club 40, or what have you, Dave plays it straight up. No behind the scenes scoring, just good, honest transparent score keeping. He even put 2 cut judges at each pylon, in an effort to diminish any argueing. Perhaps we should adopt his way of running / scoring club 40. I did not hear a single complaint about the way that race was done. In Alabaster the playing field was level!

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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/27/2011 5:36 AM   
JohnMcGowan


 

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Status: offline 		Several on this thread have already alluded to guy's 'cheating' on their airplanes, be it the airframe and engine.

All airplanes goes through a thorough pre-race tech and safety inspection.

Maybe someone can help me see what I may be missing by accusations that folks are cheating with their equipment?

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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/27/2011 11:38 AM   
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Status: offline 		If someone is fast and consistantly running at the front they will be accused of cheating.  It has always been that way and will never change.  The best way to get faster is to practice. practice, practice.  I have been accused of being a cheater for practicing in the past.  It just takes all the fun out of it.

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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/27/2011 1:17 PM   
bleudawg


 

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Status: offline 		If you have altered anything on your plane or motor including head shims your still trying to
Get a competitive edge aka cheating. That's not stock,stock,stock . And there's nothing to practice except a smooth line. And john these inspections aren't looking inside of a motor to find someone has taken a Dremel and ported and polished the head. Leave the motor alone don't even take it apart. Take it out of the box put it on the plane and fly. There will always be cheaters in racing.

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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/27/2011 2:43 PM   
BarryReade


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bleudawg

If you have altered anything on your plane or motor including head shims your still trying to
Get a competitive edge aka cheating. That's not stock,stock,stock . And there's nothing to practice except a smooth line. And john these inspections aren't looking inside of a motor to find someone has taken a Dremel and ported and polished the head. Leave the motor alone don't even take it apart. Take it out of the box put it on the plane and fly. There will always be cheaters in racing.


So, if I don't touch the motor and yet I break it in to run fast with a small prop and let the rpm's come up and run 2-3 gallons of fuel through it is the motor still stock?





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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/27/2011 2:56 PM   
JohnMcGowan


 

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Status: offline 		Bleu/Josh,
the note about changing the head shims relates to the fact that you CAN IN FACT change them and that part is perfectly legal in Club40 rules. Its all about tuning your engine to get the best performance out of it to the best of your ability, there is nothing wrong with that.
As far as taking a dremel and porting and polishing and what not,... no, thats NOT LEGAL and outright cheating. Who would do such a thing?????
Name some names and you will need to show some proof ?

Sure I agree, folks will always try to cheat in whatever form of competition they are in, its the human nature unfortunately. Does that make it right to try and get away with it in Club40? No.

These WM SkyRaider MachII airframes are all the same, they are relativley high drag, bulky boxes that are not sleek and not veru aerodynamic. There is just not alot one can do to them without altering its shape witout being"noticed".

Some folks are better than others at flying a smooth line around the poles, alot of it is in the sticks on the tx and how they are moved during race time. I sure aint the best at moving the sticks during a race but I practice to try and get better.


quote:

ORIGINAL: bleudawg

If you have altered anything on your plane or motor including head shims your still trying to
Get a competitive edge aka cheating. That's not stock,stock,stock . And there's nothing to practice except a smooth line. And john these inspections aren't looking inside of a motor to find someone has taken a Dremel and ported and polished the head. Leave the motor alone don't even take it apart. Take it out of the box put it on the plane and fly. There will always be cheaters in racing.



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RE: Overall Finish Order????? - 7/27/2011 3:58 PM   
Tbatt


 

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CodBucket: The scoring that we are using is the same as we ended up with last seaon (2010) and was carried forward to this year as agreed upon by all five CDs of the association. Yes, it is complicated only because pilots jump starts, cut pylons, crash, have misairs and then the finish order is contested due to humans trying to judge what happened. At both the Alabaster race and the B'ham race, we used the exact same scoring system and I had someone with me to help determine points. It can get very complicated and I wanted someone to look over my shoulder and agree with the points I was awarding. I will be glad to stop hauling around my PC and printer. Now, who wants to do scoring so that I can race? If we can get enough workers to run the race so that I don't do anything but scoring, I will gladly total and print scores at the end of each round. I will insist that I have someone with me to witness the points entry. Sit with me through one race and see what it takes before you judge about how simple the scoring should be. It ain't easy, it should be, but it ain't.

Cheating: Guys we are doing 100% airplane inspections now. We check dimensions of the airframe, wheels, spinner and check the engine as best we can without a tear down. I had a machine shop produce go / no-go gauges on CNC equipment in order for us to be able to check that the carb and muffler had not been drilled out. A brand new, in the box engine was used to determine the dimesions for the gauges. We all run with the same fuel that we get from a single source. Also, we weigh every airplane and we do this in front of everyone.  About 10% of the airplanes inspected have a problem that we make the pilot fix and bring back to inspection prior to racing.

The only way we will be able to find out if someone is cheating is to either do engine tear downs OR do as I suggested last year, use a standard prop and tach every engine.

Tim


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