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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/5/2012 9:06 PM   
Gompy



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It's my second Homy http://modelbouw.gompy.net/homelite/index.htm
The first one I rebuild it with a waterjacket to use it into a speedboat.....no sucses, far to low rpm.
But into my Zodiac it was a great sucses http://modelbouw.gompy.net/zodiac/index.htm
The motor was cover with a hollow babydoll and lot of people say I'm a fool to put a baby (...) into the Zodiac )

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/5/2012 9:25 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: iura
Ok, Jake! Don’t huff it’s only my thought, not more.
Hi, Jr! Which scheme did you use as HV board in your CDI?


Naw, not huffing. Just explaining.

When I get serial coms going on the 1840 we'll need a program to monitor the engine communication. The way I see it though is that the best way to work with curves and graphs is with a common and power program that's geared to it, like excel.

Having a spreadsheet makes it easy to change the calculations and tweak things. If I dumped all the excel calculations into the source code for a program it would be a total mess. I'd get lost and soon wouldn't be able to make heads nor tails of it. It would also be hard for others to jump in and figure out what's going on. Excel splits up all these calculations and organizes them in a way that people are used to and can understand.

I'm glad Gompy is working on the schematics and hardware. I'm sure John will also help when he gets back. I got an assembled HV board and parts to make another one or two from John, but when I got them and tried it out I was just too impressed and excited to start on the programming, so I haven't even put the other boards together yet.

This is the great thing about open software + open hardware projects, the hardware got me going on the programming and now I'm trying to encourage the hardware guys. I also think that the demand for units will pick up and that will encourage all of us.

I'm hoping that a commercial CDI manufacturer will also see the value in supporting open source and start making their CDI units with the right processor(s) and wiring up the programming header to make it available for easy programming. That would take a lot of the pressure off of the hardware end. People who are in a hurry or don't have electronics skills can buy a similar commercial unit and people that like to tinker can have fun building theirs.


-Jake






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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/6/2012 1:18 AM   
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Futurlec do a reasonably priced production of printed circuit boards.

http://www.futurlec.com.au/PCBService.jsp

Also, if you go down the page you can see they will accept 12 different drawing files.

I am not familiar with Eagle although I have downloaded it and gave it a try.

I found it to be somewhat un-user friendly in some instances requiring more time to study the workings of it.

However, I guess it is free and I assume that's what you are looking at.

With the Protel and Circuitmaker systems I can knock stuff out in 1/4 of the time.

Sent an Eagle preview pc board but I think everyone is rather busy as I never heard anything more about it.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/6/2012 2:05 AM   
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Hi Jeff.
I am not sure, but I think Circuitmaker can do a double sided board. If it can, we are thinking of going that route with the timer board. Just talked to Jake on the phone and some things were discussed and that was one of them. It would be then possible to kind of shrink the size of the current board by at least 1/4 inch in both dimensions. I have that program but ended up being confused with it at my age I guess. Teaching old dogs new tricks sort of thing. Anyway, new version of excel sheet on the way, no more compiler!! It adds the hex to the clipboard, copy and paste and save. Sounds great to me!!
I got more parts now for the boards, will pass them out shortly.

John


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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/6/2012 2:14 AM   
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Hi John,
Seems I have grey matter lock-up also at times. Prefer to think it is because too much going on at one time.
Things seem to be moving along here at a good pace and a lot of work done in a relatively short time.
Keep up the good work.
I'll look into the "double-sided"

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/6/2012 10:34 AM   
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Using double sided PCB or SMD is not DIY-friendly.
Using it all for this board, I dont know its wise ??
To designe a new double sided board to use a bigger PIC and communication OK.
Ill make the pcb, even if it needed tripple or quart layer....12 layer is max, sorry.
There is one thing i cant do, making a PBC and using SMD, my eyes are to bad or the parts are to small.
With using normal components its also possible to make a small pcb, if we gone use both side of the pcb.
Not all the components have to be fit at top of the pcb !!
Use the bottom for the timerboard and the top for the HV-components.....Tatatataa, small board

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/6/2012 10:48 AM   
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Hi Rob,
I had similar thought about whether double sided would be necessary.

Seems the board is fairly small as it is with only a couple of jumpers needed.

Maybe like you said, if it gets smaller then not very DIY-friendly.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/6/2012 11:05 AM   
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Considering the two construction options < SMD and double-sided > separately, I prefer SMD every time over through hole. I dread drilling lots of holes; although, I am set up well to do it. 1206/1210 SMD are only a little smaller and actually don't save much space, but IMHO are easier than through hole. 805-size SMD is the smallest I go. They are not much harder than 1206, once you get used to them, and they save lots of space. As for the chip, an SOIC-sized chip saves lots of room. Without a socketed chip, though, you will probably want to enable ICSP for programming. As for eyesight, I am not a youngster. I wear glasses and a head magnifier.

As for the board, for those who use the photo method, double-sided and single-sided are not that much different. Just tape the transparencies together, slip the board in, and flip the unit after exposure to get the other side. However, for those using toner transfer, I can appreciate that a double-sided board would be more difficult. However, isn't the eventual plan to provide a commercial board? That would be so much cheaper and more convenient for everyone; everyone except for the poor guy who agrees to coordinate it.

Thus, if the plan is to use a commercial board, which will include a solder mask, I think SMD with 805 or 1206 is the way to go. I would keep the processor to an SOIC like size for ease in soldering.

John

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/6/2012 12:30 PM   
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There is also a other BUT against small PCB's..........electronic smog
Timerboard and all the other stuf even the SCR can put dirt into the hole project.
Ecven if the (normal) components will be placed right to each other, it's possible they disturb each other.
Also the small housing of components can be a problem, small housing - no EMC smog protection.
A metal BC547 welding to ground is better whyen using a plastic dip BC547.
BTW, not only the HV will / can disturb, even the cristal or PIC can do the job.
And I forgot to mention the spark or radio signals from GSM, GPS or your rc transmitter.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/6/2012 6:18 PM   
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Hi John.
I think you were using Eagle to do schematics and boards. Do you have a list somewhere of pcb fab houses that accept Eagle file here in the U.S. ? I've seen alot offered outside the country, but not many here in the states. Also, there is Circuit Maker 2000, which I have here but could never quite get the system working easily enough to do what I need. It is a very capable program!! Bluejets is able to work with it easily, but then he is one of the most talented electronics enthusiasts I have ever met. Hi knowledge has allowed me to get many things working when I thought I'd just given up hope on a project. Rob uses Orcad and can do the boards also, so it looks like the competition has started!! This is a very good thing!
I am using what I consider to be the smallest aluminum case size for my ignition & timer board in it's current state. Both fit comfortably but I feel it can always go smaller. Ignition board is very compact, but the timer board size definitely needs to be addressed. Today I'll try getting some pictures posted that I promised. Been having a problem lately uploading pictures which made me cancel the messages. I also am writing up a parts lust for both boards, with both Digikey and Mouser part numbers. My stock of parts is now down to about 50 of everything parts-wise for building boards. Not a problem with new boards, will use same basic parts anyway.
Time to get serious and try posting my pics and parts lists.

John


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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/6/2012 6:52 PM   
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Guys, which one scheme you are building????

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/6/2012 7:24 PM   
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Hi John,

I have actually never sent a PCB out to be manufactured. I have thought about it many times, but end up DIY. Advanced Circuits is US based and advertises US manufacturing (http://www.4pcb.com ). It has a good reputation, and I believe it will take Eagle-generated files. For really cheap boards, the manufacturer will probably be off shore, but remember, everything is online. Only the finished boards need to be shipped, and international air mail is quite reasonable.

John

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/6/2012 7:33 PM   
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All they need are Gerber files to create PCB's and all programs generate Gerber files.
So you have to send the Gerber files to any PCB company and they make the PCB for you.

www.makepcb.com

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/6/2012 7:41 PM   
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Still having trouble posting a board pic, sent it to you in an email.

I'm wondering if we made a file of the timer board and told them to step and repeat for as many times would fit on a 24" square single sided sheet, if that's an option? Seems some companies also offer this besides etch, solder mask, drilling, and cutting apart.
If we can, I think that would give us the most boards for the money. I don't know how to go about doing an order, but maybe someone has info for us. Getting a price will decide which way we go I guess.

John


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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/6/2012 9:07 PM   
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I think they say in the US "hold your horses" and thats wat you have to do John.
Without testing _this_ hard- and software for some time, it's not handy to let make now the PCB's professional.

Make a few (10 or 20) CDI-PCB's or kits, start testing the CDI (not one person, but 10 or 20 differend persons with differend engines), listen wat they say about it, change or fix program / bugs, test again and if no one have complains you can start makinf real PCB's by some compagny.

A other point to attention befor you go to the PCB-factory.
If Jake gone make a new CDI-version, hard- and software, wat will you do with the old version ?
No one will buy a old version if there will be a new one soon.

I don't know how big / small the CDI can be, but a "eruo-cart" is 4" x 6".
A single or double sided PCB I can make it in 3 minutes, etsing and lighting, not drill and cut.
The most work will be the drawing of one single PCB, not to copy / past the rest to (example) the "euro-cart" sheet.

My advice, take some time to test and don't try to run faster then your shadow.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/6/2012 11:08 PM   
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You are right Rob. I don't want to rush into this, only to find out there are problems with certain engines. So I guess we need more engine testers. I will supply kits at my cost, very low price. We just need more people testing. When Jake releases the next version of the software, we should almost be there. What he's told me on the phone about what he did with the excel spreadsheet is a wonderful thing. There will be a button to click to take everything in user data, curves, and the source code, and convert it to a hex listing. This will then be copied to the clipboard in Windows. From there, open Notepad, paste clipboard contents to the screen, name it and save wherever you like! Much, much easier than going thru drudgery in the XC8 compiler. All that's left to do at that point is to program your PIC chip and try it. Nothing hard. Jake has taken alot of time doing this feature but well worth the wait I think!

After switching over to the next chip, (12f1840) and a slightly different timer board with in circuit programming, a boot loader for data, and the rest of the wanted features, we will have a modeler's dream come true. There are many commercially made ignitions with far fewer features for hundreds of dollars which we will walk all over with this combination. And to think, everyone participating in this will have made it all possible.
I don't want to rush Jake and have him make mistakes. So we can work on the hardware in the interim. If you remember the schematic that Nyemi posted from rccdi.com, that is basically the ignition circuit I am using with some component values changed. What was added is a way to tune it for lowest mah current draw, and the highest voltage across the .47 uf capacitor. I will show where to add resistors and suggested values for a close tune. Each board must be tuned because of variances in component tolerances etc. Not all transformers will put out exactly 400 volts for example. I have a few that reached 550 !! Those are the exceptions rather than the rule. Also, taking into consideration that the oscillation circuit transistor heating that can occur if over driven will basically rule how you tune. Alot of variables. There is room On the ignition board for doubling up on the transistors for higher current draw handling if you feel the need. So you see, it is a true user's system. You build it, you tune it, you use it. An electronic's addictiction cured.

John


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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/6/2012 11:41 PM   
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I like the things Jake do but it haven't be a problem for the tuners to use more programs to realice there project.
They know wat they are doing.......users don't know wat they are doing and thats the problem.
All the questions I get, I get from joung guys who want to use it on there scooter / moped.

For now everybody look up to the "special" transformer, but using a flyback transformer thats the problem.
If you use a transformer in reverse, example a 2x 3 Volt to the low Voltage side, you get 250 Volt output at the other side.
Nyemi have make this kind of Voltage pump into his ZVS DC CDI.
Its also possible to make hig Voltage with a UC3845 and a small easy to make transformer.
I think this is more realible to use instead of a flyback transformer.
If I feel better and at home everything will be normal, I'll gone test with this kind of Voltage pump.
I think also the timerboard need some extra components to secure it against electronic smog.

BTW, Volvo put the sparkcoil right on the candle into the sparkplug.
The exclude with this construction from high Voltage inteverense to the timerboard.

Attachments
Click to see fullsize image.
Click for fullsize


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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/6/2012 11:53 PM   
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New Release!
v0.98b6 is now on the site!

Changes...
-Changed table calculations to load a minimum of 7 instead of 0. This should make the processor always fire a spark, even if it's late.
-Added the ability to save and load curves
-Spreadsheet will now generate the HEX file! No compiler needed!
-Too many spreadsheet changes and tweaks to list.
-All settings now stored in the table, so everything changes when you change the table switch!

Since this is still a beta version the spreadsheet has not been protected or locked in any way. Nothing has been hidden from the user, except empty rows and columns. So be careful to only edit what you need to change and to not accidentally change cells you shouldn't be changing.

This version will generate the hex, but remember that it's not compiling anything. It is just entering the table data into a precompiled hex. I highly suggest not even clicking on the "HEX_Calcs" sheet.

There is nothing for the user to edit on the "Table_Values", "Code", and "HEX_Calcs" sheets, so do not edit anything on these sheets. The "Copy Code" button is on the "Code", sheet though BTW.

I tried to make things easy with the color coding and buttons.
Green = settings/cells you can change
Red = calculated values used in the program
Yellow = intermediate or informational cells
Blue = Various information or settings that should not normally be changed by the user

The default curves that come with this sheet are based on replicating the stock ignition on my 4-stroke engine, which has a fixed 25 degree advance. This might not work well on your engine, so don't load it if you think it won't work!


Quick run through on the spreadsheet...
The first thing you need to know is that you must turn on macros for the spreadsheet to work right. When you first open the spreadsheet excel will pop up a bar across the top about a security warning. Click what you need to so that macros are turned on. You can also go into excel options and change the settings related to this or make it always trust this specific spreadsheet file.

If you don't trust me to run macros on your computer or somehow get this file from a untrustworthy source then you can still use the spreadsheet. None of the buttons will work, so you will have to manually copy the source code into a file, manually copy the table values, and paste them into the source code, then compile the source. To do this just edit everything how you want, then copy cell G3 from the "Table_Values" sheet and paste it into the source code at the proper place, repeat with cell N3, then compile.

Sheet 1, "Setup_Settings"
-Put in your hall sensor degrees BTDC. My program times from when the magnet approaches, so it will probably seem 1-2 deg. MORE compared to programs that time from when the magnet leaves the sensor. If you use a 30 deg. magnet/sensor position, it will probably be 31-33 deg. according to my system. To find this just load up a fixed advance flat curve and time the motor to see where the spark hits, then adjust the Hall Deg. setting so the spark hits where it should. Finding this and adjusting it in the program should be easier than trying to move the sensor/magnet around!

-Set your "Est. Start RPM" and "Start Advance deg." settings. 5 deg. advance is suggested for easy starting, so the main thing you have to figure out is how fast you are spinning the engine when you are starting it. Probably around 200-500 for handstarting, higher if you use a mechanical starting device or pull start.
* This doesn't actually change anything anymore! It's just for seeing the calculations*
Start RPM is now down lower in the user settings for each advance table, and the start advance degree is taken from the "0 RPM" setting in the advance curve.
There is also a deg to digi-deg calculator in the top right cells of the page.

-The rest of the settings are related to the MSD feature. With the default settings it will throw three sparks at start up, and two sparks from there until it hits 916 RPM. Otherwise it should only throw one spark. These settings should work best for most people, only change them if you want to try playing with the MSD feature.


Sheet 2, "Advance_Curves"
-Here is where you program your advance curves.
-You can change the RPM set points and the advance settings.
-Don't cross your points. That means they should all be in order from lowest to highest.
-Point 0 is for starting, Point 500 is for 120-915 RPM. You can't change these points, but you can change the advance setting for them.
-You can use the buttons to change the values. If you need a specific value you can key it into the cell.
-Hitting tab instead of enter makes excel move to the right instead of down. This makes it easy to key in the values.
-The graph shows your curve line in blue, the back-calculated setting is shown by the red line.
-Red points at the top, bottom, and in the line show where the actual control points are according to the table (CurrentRev), these can't be changed.
-Use the red marks and line to see what effect your curve is having on the actual table values.
-You can go above the red line, but the red line represents what is actually put into the table and where sparks will actually fire.

-You can use the button to copy your settings down to table two. Use this to quickly align your control points or change the curves. If you want to swap 2 -> 1 then use one of the save slots on the "Saved_Curves" sheet.


Sheet 2, "Saved_Curves"
-Here you have 6 slots to save and load curves
-The preview button loads the saved curve into the graph at the bottom so that you can see it before loading it.
-The load buttons load the saved curve into table 1 or 2 on the "Advance_Curves" sheet.
-The save buttons save curve 1 or curve 2 into the save slot.
-Loading/saving curves does NOT change the user settings, except for the start and low_rpm advances.
-Always double check your other settings and remember that they are not saved with the curves.
-The sheet will prompt you to name the curve and will automatically save the date and time.


Finishing up!
Once all your settings are right you can go to the first sheet and click "Copy HEX". This copies the hex file into your clipboard. Open a text editor, hit paste, then save the file with a .hex extension. You're now ready to program your PIC with the most advanced CDI program ever created! (and the programmer is as humble as he is skilled)


-Jake

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/7/2012 1:35 AM   
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Jake, seems something is preventing me from seeing where I should be able to see sheet 2. Almost like when it was saved, no other sheets were saved. Anyone else have this problem or am I the only one? Nevermind..went to full screen view and I can see it..Looks very good with the features..Editing a few curves and trying it out shortly!

John

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/7/2012 2:52 AM   
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One thing I forgot to mention... the code sheet doesn't automatically put in the table values anymore, it's just the regular code. You'll need to paste in the table values when you go to compile. Now it's only two lines though since the user settings are moved into the table.


-Jake

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/7/2012 3:17 AM   
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Jake, This thing is the cat's meow!

I love it, and everything works great. Just to prove it for myself, I programmed two curves into a previously unused chip so there was no mixing of data from a preprogrammed curve. Popped it into the timer and tested. Works really nice. Now if the weather holds tomorrow morning, I'll give it a run on the engine and test both curves.
I need to make a good 4 stroke curve for my converted O.S. 60. It was setup for throttle coupled mechanical advance and always stumbled and hesitated at mid throttle settings so I want to see if it can be cured. If it works, Look out Mr. Saito!! Theres a new kid on the block...
Anyone interested in sharing a 4 stroke curve for testing so I have a starting point?

John


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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/7/2012 4:27 AM   
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Well folks, I knew I was going to catch hell from the wife at 11 pm for waking her up, but I just had to test the new programmed curves on my engine. Tests were 100% successful! Tracked the timing changes with a timing led and it follows exactly what I programmed..

Well done Jake !!! I'll take 10 copies..aw nevermind, I already have it..LOL

So there we have it. Cool looking software that really works! My neighbor is an electronics freak and he's gonna flip out when he see's this stuff.

I am only making one change for my preferrence, the length of time the LED is powerd is too short for a visual check of the timing in low light testing. I want to raise it a bit so it's back to normal brightness. Looking thru the code I think I found it. It must be edited into a copy of the source code, compiled with the MC8 compiler the old way, but it should solve it easily.. Unless someone else has another solution for it, this is how I'll try it.

John

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/7/2012 5:48 AM   
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I figured that might be an issue, but I didn't see any real easy way around it. I use a timing light, so the LED feature isn't that important to me.
I also thought that the rise time on the LED before the current gets flowing and it really lights up is going to make the mark show up a bit after the actual time the spark fires.
Then again the LED did seem to work better than I had expected. I just don't know how many people will use the feature and timing lights are more accurate and fairly cheap.

You could increase "Trigger_Pulse_Time" which would give the LED more time to light up. You should decrease MSD_Delay by any amount you increase the trigger pulse time. This is because MSD_Delay determines the time between pulses, so if you make the pulse longer but keep the same time between them you will be delaying the 2nd pulse by that amount.

I kind of like the idea of making a timing light with a xenon flash bulb type setup that could plug into the timer board. With a couple parts you could make one that would be accurate and bright. Junky cameras and flash units can be had at thrift stores for just a few dollars and should have all the needed parts in them. You might need a smaller or bigger cap or change some other parts around to make it able to fire/charge faster.

A project like this would fit well with the DIY spirit of the project and I bet most of us here already have the parts laying around.


On another note, if anyone finds even minor bugs or annoyances please let me know. I think we're very close to a v1.0 release, so it's time to break out the polish.


-Jake

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/7/2012 10:22 AM   
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For the timer boards I think we should make a through hole version first. I think SMT will only work well if we have the whole board made and soldered in a factory. There's no reason we can't have a through hole version kit and also have some SMT versions made at some point. People who want to etch their own can still do so, and having the layout done in some sort of free program will only make things easier for them.

From what I've seen you can get 2 sided boards in prototype quantity for around $7 per square inch. That's not exactly cheap, but it shouldn't break the bank either. I'm sure it can be done a lot cheaper in quantity with the boards panelized. Some places seem to have rules about internal routing or charge extra, so it will probably take some looking around to find the best place for medium quantity panelized runs.

All places take gerber files, which is the actual file that can be fed into the machines. But quite a few will take Eagle files also. That seems like the easiest way to me IMHO. With an Eagle file they have everything on the project and can make changes to it and validate that it will turn out right. With just a gerber you can have mistakes that will make the boards turn out wrong, and they usually won't refund problems like that. I'd just as soon have the board house make sure it will turn out like the Eagle file shows.

Eagle can be a pain and really piss you off at times. Some parts seem crappy and broken, but it actually does work well once you learn how to do things with it. All the functionality is there, it's just sometimes hard to figure out their odd interface. Once you learn it, then it seems a lot easier.

I'm using an iCP07 board connected to the timer board for most of my programming. That board seems pretty decent, so it might be a good place to start for figuring out our timer board design. I know that the ICP header setup works on it and all the pins are exposed.
You can find it here...
http://www.piccircuit.com/shop/pic-dev-board/76-icp07-iboard-tiny.html




We probably don't need the voltage regulator, especially since a UBEC is only around $3-4 from hobbyking. I'm not good enough at EE to figure out what other components could be tossed, but it might not hurt to keep some of the power filtering. Looks like they use 1nF, 0.1uF, 1uF, and 10uF caps for filtering. Other than that there's just a couple resistors and a diode for polarity protection.

There really isn't much to the timer board. We mainly just have to figure out the routing so that all the pins are exposed and organized in a way that suits our connection setup. I'd also like to have a temp sensor, so one of the pins should be arranged next to a +5V pin.

Another idea would be to have a voltage divider on one of the pins so that we could read battery voltage levels. Whatever voltage battery packs people are using needs to be divided down into 0-5V so that the ADC on the PIC can measure it. Hopefully there's a range that will give decent resolution and still cover all the voltages people want to use. The PIC has a 10-bit ADC, so that 0-5V range is split into 1024 possible values.

I don't know what you guys think about monitoring the battery voltage, but it's one of the first things I think about with battery operated devices. I don't like them dying by surprise, and it's not good if it drains them until they're ruined either.

I think it would also be nice to have some sort of beeper or buzzer on the board also, or maybe an optional connection for one. Communicating with simple devices is always tough, but I usually seem to find beeps easier to understand than flashing lights. Then again, engine noise might make it kind of difficult to use beeps. Maybe it can have a beeper and light tied to the same output pin?

Anyways, that's just some things to keep in mind for the future. Since we're making these all one at a time at the moment, it wouldn't hurt to have multiple designs also.


-Jake

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/7/2012 10:27 AM   
COM


 

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Ok So I try to build the latest beta and I get some error messages.


Error [254] C:\Users\Charlie\Desktop\Jakestew\New folder\CDI-2012_12F683_v0.98b6.c; 230.0 undefined variable: "init"
(908) exit status = 1


What do I need to do? I don't really have time to trouble shoot this.

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Charlie M.

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