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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/26/2012 9:48 PM 1 votes

bluejets

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The 2 circuits uploaded.......finally.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/26/2012 10:44 PM 1 votes

Gompy

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Changed in schematic, I hope this is wat you want ?

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/27/2012 1:43 AM 1 votes

gr8flyer55

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So, by removing the transistor, we now get a positive pulse output thru the optocoupler ? Seems logical to me.
Are the new design boards the ones to etch and use for all the future add- on switches and features? I've already etched 4 boards, two of the last design and two of this last design, not knowing which to use, but with the inverted signal, it seems possible to have it work with the existing ignition boards. Last design also worked with my old original design hv board with the negative pulses. To have it work with the current design boards, I moved the bias resistor back to ground base and that worked also. So either design functioned with a simple resistor relocation.

John

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/27/2012 5:40 AM 1 votes

jakestew

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bluejets
Jake,
I think if you look back a couple of weeks, that filter arrangement was what I suggested back then but everyone said correct with software.
I was of the opinion that the micro should get what it is expecting to see.

Yep, I remember you coming up with some good stuff. I actually had bookmarked the site I linked to back when we were discussing things. I was in a hurry, but wanted to post a few things before everyone got too far into etching boards.

It is really pretty limited how much digital signal processing you can do with a 2 MIPS, 8-bit processor. I use pretty long wires with my hall sensor and don't seem to have any problems. The lack of filtering will limit the sensor wire length. Two resistors and a cap is a pretty cheap hardware solution.

Sensor noise, EMI, and ringing might cause some problems when I try to precisely time the pulse length. It seems like it would be pretty easy to put the filter on the actual wires to the hall.

Everything is working great for me at the moment, so if these new boards work at least as well we'll be doing good!

-Jake

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/27/2012 6:06 AM

gr8flyer55

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Well, I guess I'll finish doing the new "B" board soon as I get my next parts order. Need a few caps and the zener diodes and I'm all set.
Looks like the best options for what I will be using it on. What I needed really was the LED timing/strobe light working and with LED 2 in place, I'll have it working for my tests of timing tracking and table changes. I do have the last timer board working for table switches and the kill button. Nice test stand features for this project.

John

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/27/2012 11:17 AM 1 votes

Gompy

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The transistor output will be the timerflashlight, but the time must be a little longer.
I don't know wat time is use now, but with 0.5 till 1 msec it have to work.
Using a 10mm small degree window white bright LED will also help.

BTW, kill the nois will start direct on the hallsensor with the little capacitor.
On the board there will be a second capacitor and the diodes (a LED is also a diode)
You have to twist the leads and sometimes ferrit cores around the leads can help, see your computer leads wat I mean.
It's impossible to filter everyting because with a low filter you are missing the low rpm pulses and with a high filter the fast rpm pulses.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/27/2012 2:17 PM 1 votes

Gompy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gr8flyer55

So, by removing the transistor, we now get a positive pulse output thru the optocoupler ? Seems logical to me.
Are the new design boards the ones to etch and use for all the future add- on switches and features? I've already etched 4 boards, two of the last design and two of this last design, not knowing which to use, but with the inverted signal, it seems possible to have it work with the existing ignition boards. Last design also worked with my old original design hv board with the negative pulses. To have it work with the current design boards, I moved the bias resistor back to ground base and that worked also. So either design functioned with a simple resistor relocation.

John

John,

LED2, the one on the hallsensor is only to set the hallsensor in position.
This LED don't have the timing of the SCR calculate.
It's possible LED2 flash far befor the real ignition find place.

LED1 is the one we need for timing the CDI.
This flash must be at the same time the SCR will activate the sparkcoil.
The time LED1 must be on depent of the time between the sparks.
But it must allways be on at the same time the engine get his spark.

The transistor will be the cuurent booster so you can use bigger a LED.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/27/2012 3:16 PM 1 votes

nyemi

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Hi Rob
I'm sorry. I did not mean to offend you.
I'm just trying to help.
Sorry.
Deleted.
I'm sorry, everybody.

< Message edited by nyemi -- 11/27/2012 7:10 PM >

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/27/2012 5:43 PM

Gompy

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I draw 4 differend schematics and I don't get the right information to optize.
I quit, I have to guess wat you all want and my last cristal ball is broken.
Pickup one of the 4 boards if you like and have fun.

Goodbye.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/27/2012 7:11 PM

gr8flyer55

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We all have to wait now to see which way the software will go before we make a hardware board choice.
Personally I like the last "B" option but that is just me, others may like option "A" for how the switches function. Whichever you choose out of the last 4 that Rob has so graciously devoted all his time and expertise to, make sure the software is going to function with it before making the board and running into problems later.

Rob, let everyone find their preference and let's see who gets what to work. My second set of boards are done waiting for parts, then I can test.

John

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/27/2012 8:13 PM

Gompy

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Rize or falling edge, input high or low, ouput hig or low, more or less jumpers, 4V8 or 7V4, big or small board, 12F683 or 12F1840, with or with out communication, rpm-meter, flashlight, nois reduce.
For now no one knows wat kind of schematic or board belongs to the software or PCB, no one will take decision, it change by day or user.
Is there some one who knows wat he want, I don't think so and thats te reason why I quit with this project.
I've see many open source projects and it's allways the same song, they never finish.

I take my time and help my programmer with his and mine HV-board for our bikes.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/27/2012 8:30 PM 1 votes

gr8flyer55

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I'd say everyone has enough choices right now to select which best suits their needs.
We need to let the software catch up to all the advances made in the hardware in just this past week!!
I already know which I will use. Many choices is confusing though. I will finish board "B" and test , if there are changes later, the etch pattern can be changed.

Their must be other input for the project to advance. Some people take the wait and see attitude. That gets us nowhere. I do believe the work you have done already Rob was more than enough. Relax, and work on your other project for your bike so you have something to be proud of when it's completed.

Please do check in to see what kind of trouble we get into. I always value your design decisions as top notch! You have been doing electronics longer than some of these people have been alive.

The pot has just begun to boil, don't put the fire out just yet.

John

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/28/2012 11:53 AM 1 votes

jakestew

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I can do some more work on the code to make the various configurations easier to change for different boards. Putting in lots of defines will make it easier to change a few settings at the top, but will make the rest of the code a bit more complicated and obtuse.

I'm willing to support any boards that anyone makes publicly available. I'm not going to make special versions for every proto board that people crank out, but if a design works and you're willing to produce the boards for people... I'll make the software work for it.

Right now it seems like only the polarity of the switches has changed, and that's a very easy fix. By the time you guys get your normally-closed switches I'll have any changes made.

To be clear... nobody should be ordering any more 12F683 chips. The 1840 is a drop in replacement and costs the same or less, so there's really no reason to use it anymore.

The minimum hardware to support an ICP header is only one 10k pull-up resistor on MCLR, and a 5-pin header. I think it will be well worth it.

Anything else is up to you hardware guys. The only other thing I wanted to point out is that I plan to have a sensor display mode in the next version, so putting a LED on the hall circuit will be unnecessary, unless you just want more flashing lights.

I can guess on things from schematics, but if you want good software support then send me a working board! I've got processors handy, so feel free to crank out designs and send me boards to test!

I think we're just now hitting our stride with this project, so keep at it!

-Jake

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/29/2012 2:42 PM 1 votes

Nav-Aids

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To everyone and I don't care if people get mad at me.
I thought this was suppose to be an open source project and open source means that anyone who wants to get involved has and I mean HAS to learn to do their own hardware and software. You are given the basics and it is up to you how it turns out. No one on this project has the right to dictate a custom design for their own use. If you want that hire a company that does custom design. I myself I want to see different designs but, I want to see them working before I decide which design or parts of a design I will use. As for software, I can modify the code and if I have a problem Jake is kind enough to answer my questions but, nothing says he has to.

If any person doesn't want to learn, then I suggest they buy something off the shelf. This is a programmable CDI, programmable as in you change the code and you flash your own MCU. No one at this point has a working latest design and already people are asking for changes. Get your board built, run it, and show us the results. This way we can compare the designs and go with what works best for everyone. If someone doesn't like the base design then they are free to make their own boards and their own software version. It seems to me that most people here can make their own boards but, can't or won't make their own version of the program. It's not that hard people, everything you need but, the programmer is free, all the software needed to change the program is free, people just need to put some effort in.

The base board needs to be made so that people can make small changes, if they want bigger changes they can make their own boards. Things like having the kill switch provide a high to the MCU is good because if a wire breaks off the switch and does touch something it will most likely will be ground (-), if it doesn't touch ground then it will be a floating high and could cause erratic behavior but most likely will kill the engine. Yes use jumpers on all I/Os so people can choose what they want, they just have to change the code and yes this will make the board a bit bigger but, more user friendly.

Jake could you add the code maybe that allows the most options but, rem them out so if a person wants a certain feature they can just un-rem the code? this way the complied code remains as small as possible.

This isn't my first nor will it be my last open source project. Maybe some should start a closed group project for custom systems and buys? It's open source so it's up to you.

Ray

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/29/2012 4:01 PM 1 votes

gr8flyer55

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Hi Ray.
I am in the process of drilling my corrected version "B" board that was posted. I have the option to either place jumpers on the switch headers or actually use plug in wires and switches. After I find my good running curves for my intended use on my models, I can just place the jumpers back on the switch pins for the table switch and forget about it until another feature pops up that can use it. The kill switch header pins is a great feature which can be used by an opto kill switch with the right connections. That makes this project very useable, without fear of RFI in the radio system being introduced. That part I have tested right next to my receiver and no glitches.
I agree with Jake that we switch over to the 1840 chip for future development! This chip has everything we will need and the board we now have supports it.
Addons like timing light support, tach direct output and in circuit programming are easy enough to do with the current board. I want to develop my own addons for personal reasons. All possible with the current design. Rob gave us the basics and I'm sure now it's going to be fine after testing.
Like you said Ray, there has to be more than one person doing the trouble shooting work. I'm sure everyone else IS waiting for the finished product. Let's see some of the results. I will post mine when I test.
Jake has a lot to do, and so do I. Rob is busy also with another project. Bluejets has a project going to use with this system also, and I am working on that one too.

John

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/29/2012 5:21 PM

Nav-Aids

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I haven't got my board from you yet, I think customs is starting to get busy with the Xmas stuff, good thing I have patients. I just think that all the squabling should stop and we should start to see some resutls before asking for more. I like the 'B' board and it seems most others do to, I also think we should concentrate on that. I just ordered some parts from Digi-Key and should have them Monday and then post my results. Must keep this project flexible enough for all to use it.

Ray

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/29/2012 9:22 PM

luciano perrotta

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Does any body know the hall sensor part number of Dle engine`s ignition.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/29/2012 9:59 PM 1 votes

gr8flyer55

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I haven't had the opportunity yet to rip one apart to look for a number. If it is using a single magnet to trigger it it is probably a unipolar sensor. They make many types, North Pole trigger, South Pole trigger, latching, non latching. I would think if it is not working, you could do what I would do, just disassemble it and have a look.
I know this doesn't help a lot, but if you think it is the sensor giving you the problem, you can always unplug it, and if the wire out of the ignition has the normal 3 wire colors coming from it which are white, red, and black out of the ignition box, take a paperclip or a bare strand of wire and short between the white (signal wire) and the black ( ground wire) with the ignition on and the sparkplug removed from the engine and seated in the plug cap you should get a spark if the ignition is good.
Other than that simple check, if someone has any idea what they use, I would like to know also.

John

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/29/2012 11:16 PM

luciano perrotta

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I appreciate very much your Help ! my doubt was between Bipolar and unipolar sensor, now i know the right hall sensor.
I friend from Copacabana.
tchau !!!

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/30/2012 2:15 AM

captinjohn

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Is there many places to fly RC airplanes in Rio de Janeiro, BRAZIL? I Googled it and what a beatifull place to be!!! WoW ! Capt,n

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/30/2012 11:44 AM 1 votes

jakestew

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nav-Aids
No one on this project has the right to dictate a custom design for their own use. If you want that hire a company that does custom design. I myself I want to see different designs but, I want to see them working before I decide which design or parts of a design I will use.

Right now I'm sitting here looking at the one open-hardware board design I have on my bench. People can demand all they want, but AFAIK right now there is only one board design that is actually being produced and is available to people. I like discussing new designs, but for right now there is only one board that I know is out there. And the only way I'll really know that new versions are being actually produced is when one shows up in my mail box!

> Jake could you add the code maybe that allows the most options but, rem them out so if a person wants a certain feature they can just un-rem the code? this way the complied code remains as small as possible.

I can only really add code when I know what I'm writing it for. Like you said, if someone wants minor changes then it's up to them to modify the code. I'll be happy to help people do that, but there's only going to be one main firmware for each board design that is actually being produced and used.

Anyone who thinks this discussion is overly-spirited (or not) needs to take a good look at my code if they haven't already. I have commented every single line of code telling exactly what it is doing. Rarely have I ever seen code this well commented. I did this because it's the proper way to code! Even if you have no programming knowledge the comments are written in plain english. Obviously there are complexities to manipulating the hardware of a microprocessor, and I can only explain things these terms. If it seems complicated I can assure you that looking at the datasheet for the chip will clarify the comments as best as is possible.

If something doesn't make sense to you, just ask me about it. Then I can clarify the comment in the next version. To understand what is going on with the processor you will need to look at the code and comments, then look things up in the datasheet. Almost every other line of code I write I have to look something up in the datasheet.

To lay out some basics... Every line of code starts with a statement and ends with a ";" After this will be a comment which starts with "//". Using an IDE or code editor (I often use Notepad++) will help you by highlighting parts of the code in different colors. This will help you see the code vs. the comments more easily.

If you don't understand, just ask! It really is that simple! Most of the time I'll probably explain it to you and show you can figure it out from the datasheet.

Keeping the code tight is my main focus. I probably won't include any runtime changes for different minor board changes. What I can do is add some defines at the top of the code, which will change what is actually compiled into the code.

I should have some defines set up for normally-open vs. normally-closed switches, etc.. That is something that will be in a future version if we cannot agree on the "proper" setup.

All in all I'm pretty happy at the moment... we have a v1.0 firmware that runs great on the only hardware I know of, and I've posted a demonstration video showing it's performance. Nobody can deny that what we have right now works well and has features that no other (under $250+) CDI out there has.

We're the most advanced open-hardware, open-software CDI that exists on all of the interwebs!

-Jake

< Message edited by jakestew -- 11/30/2012 12:13 PM >

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/30/2012 12:50 PM 1 votes

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Last try with the hardware.
Just one board to use for one kind of CDI, not a devolpement board.

Why this kind of hardware:

Pin to use of PIC (12F683 / 12F1840)

Pin 1 Power + batterie
Pin 2 Table change - keep low by resistant / normal use jumper must be set / table 1 active // no jumper - table 2 active (safety table).
Pin 3 Killswitch - keep low by resistant / normal use switch must closed / killswitch not active // open switch / broken lead - kill output SCR (safety kill engine)
Pin 4 Special - keep high by resistant / have more functions / MCLR / reset PIC and ........ // personal opinion dont'use, only keep high with resistant.[1]
Pin 5 Input hallsensor or other puls from engine, components on input reduce nois, hallsensor need direct protect against nois with capacitor on leads.
Pin 6 Output SCR to optocoupler to protect PIC from HV / extra LED2 to find degree angle hallsensor / important to set in software.
Pin 7 Output flashlight to control degree angle table // need transistor output for high current LED / flashlight / rpm-meter.
Pin 8 Power - batterie

[1] Without the resistant on pin 4 (not) MCLR the PIC can't be in circuit programmed.
[1] If the pin is used for other options, the PIC can't be in circuit be proigrammed.
[1] ICP-pinheader is not possible, the PCB must be small for model use.
[1] With a program clip (show somewhere on this topic) the PIC can be ICP without the pinheader.

Don't make it harder to use the CDI for user who want only a advance / programmable CDI for there model(s)
For other projects / option / features / .. / make new hardware / software, but don't try to change a bike into a Ferrari.

Final, If some one have a good reason to change this board and design just say so with a plausible explanation.....NOT I LIKE IT.
In- or outputs can be reversed by soft- and hardware and the values I use are common and can also be changed.
If the group deside something must be change and all off the user have the same opinion, I'll design the hardware if possible.

First of all, the hallsensor header can't be change +P- to P+-, the board is to small todo this.
The header pins on the bottom will be there to make a small CDI with a sandwichboard but you are free do use them differend.
You don't have to use the LED's, the LEDs are on headerpins so you can remove them if you don't use them.

Hallsensor input change to P + - like normal.
Add PDF with 1:1 PCB, schematic and 2:1 component layout

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< Message edited by Gompy -- 11/30/2012 8:37 PM >

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/30/2012 3:40 PM 1 votes

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I chose board "B" for the board I made and at this moment I have it built 99% completed. It has the hardware configuration which is able to use both existing software and the version 1.0 recently released. Switches and headers work well, the board is still small and I will show on mine where I will adapt an off board ICP jumper. What's not to like?

John

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/30/2012 9:07 PM 1 votes

Gompy

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Nyemi make me attent to the rise and fall.

Please take a look to the schematic wat he means and if I have to change the schematic / PCB.
I don't know wat Jack use into his software and wat we need.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 11/30/2012 10:27 PM 1 votes

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I am assuming this subject was covered about 10 pages back in this forum with a few lines in the software changes you can make by editing the lines in YOUR source code to give the proper signal. Maybe I'm wrong but thought it was addressed before.

John

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