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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/14/2012 11:49 AM   
nyemi


 

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From: szarvas, HUNGARY
Status: offline 		There are two commands in the code.
INTCONbits.INTE = 0;
INTCONbits.INTE = 1;
The problem is solved.




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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/14/2012 12:28 PM   
COM


 

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Status: offline 		Ok,

So Nyemi how do you implement that into the latest spreadsheet?

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/14/2012 1:53 PM   
gr8flyer55


 

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Status: offline 		I edited the command line to reflect Nyemi's proposed fix, recompiled and am programming the chip now. We shall see how it works shortly! Charlie, have you tried it yet?

John


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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/14/2012 3:58 PM   
COM


 

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Status: offline 		Hi John,

I have not tried it yet.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/14/2012 4:05 PM   
gr8flyer55


 

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Status: offline 		Charlie, well it stopped the buzzing for sure, but it still burns up my transistor!!

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/14/2012 4:28 PM   
gr8flyer55


 

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Status: offline 		Looked thru the code after it overheated and destroyed another transistor, and there is definitely something wrong in the section where it is testing to see if the engine is running yet or not. So I tried a 8000 rpm tester plugged in instead of the hall sensor simulating an engine running and then the transistor was cool as a cucumber. So, it is only a problem in the non-running engine loop that needs to be fixed. Don't waste your time, let Jake look at it and fix it. I've now ruined the 3rd transistor and am not sacrificing any more to this code error.

Plugged in another chip with my previously working hex file and it worked perfectly, no heat, no buzzing spark before starting, just good performance.

John


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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/14/2012 4:53 PM   
Gompy



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From: Alkmaar, NETHERLANDS
Status: offline 		Burnout the transistor is a problem from using the flightbacksystem.
Normaly the ocsilator will stopped if the HV is 2 or 300 Volt.
At low speed this Voltgae will there be sooner then when the engine is running fast.
The transistor will be shorted for a long time at low speed.
A CDI don't use this, he must be open untill the capacitor is loaded, not longer.
I want to try the schematic below if my brain is working back OK.


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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/14/2012 5:36 PM   
iura


 

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From: tbilisigeorgia, GEORGIA
Status: offline 		Gompy, I told you about fly back converter some years ago. I whant to say again: in our case this is the best scheme for HV converter. But this one is too difficult, look for this:
http://www.dos4ever.com/flyback/flyback.html

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/14/2012 5:55 PM   
Gompy



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From: Alkmaar, NETHERLANDS
Status: offline 		All the flybacks I build the last years have problems with the transistor (at low rpm)
If I'm standing befor a traficlight, I can't run my engine up to 2500 rpm........they will ask me if I'm grazy.
I know for models they use or thry to use as less as psossible component, every component cost money and is weight.
Thats why I want to use a differend kind of HV-board for my bike, not one who need by eveery traficlight a new transistor.
Not one of the HV-boards we have build is using a "shutoff" of "slowdown" if the capacitor is loaded.
Maybe just Jake do right now , a fresh look to the software, I think we need a fresh look to the hardware too.

http://users.triera.net/zupanbra/pdf/MC34063.pdf

I think you have to ask John, Charlie and all the others how many transistors they have blow the last copuple of years.

< Message edited by Gompy -- 10/14/2012 6:24 PM >

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/14/2012 6:26 PM   
iura


 

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From: tbilisigeorgia, GEORGIA
Status: offline 		This only one problem in fly back converter: transformer. In this scheme we can use the stand by transformer from old ATX power module(EE-19N) It’s need 8v input and can provide output about 200v at 33mgh frequency.
http://webx.dk/oz2cpu/radios/psu-pc400.htm
It’s depends only on they experience.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/14/2012 6:31 PM   
COM


 

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Status: offline 		Well Actually I have never burned up a transistor in my HV boards. If The transformer is would correctly, at idle or WOT the total amp draw from the HV board is minimal, and thus no burnt up transistors.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/14/2012 6:45 PM   
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Status: offline 		I tried to reproduce the problem and now everything works as it should. I am not getting multiple sparks. Even if I stop the magnet at the hall sensor the ignition fires once and just sits there. This is testing on my engine sim though.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/14/2012 7:48 PM   
gr8flyer55


 

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Status: offline 		Charlie, it seems like a random latchup problem caused by the software though.. I disconnected the timer board completly, eliminating the software glitch, plugged a sensor directly into the HV board and it works perfectly every time.

I can hold the magnet at the sensor for 15 minutes and nothing happens anywhere till I move the magnet off the sensor, then one spark, and it works as it was designed. But plugging in the timer board again with the bad glitch software reproduces the same problem, latchup and the transistor is destroyed in less than 5 seconds.

So there is my proof, software problem, not hardware problem. Changing the line in the software might have fixed the buzz, but it didn't fix the original problem of the latchup. In fact, if the buzz problem hadn't shown up being constantly sparking as the magnet was held at the sensor, this problem would probably never have been found until someone burned up a transistor and started bad mouthing the hardware! I know how I test things here, very methodical with numerous boards involved so it isn't just one suspect board or batch of transistors that can't take the heat. When it shows up on the last 10 boards, which previously worked perfectly for over a year until this software glitch, I know it's a software problem.... Just to prove my point further, I tried an RCexl ignition without the timer board, and a CH ignition without timer board, plugged the bad software timer board into them and POOF! Now bad transistors on both of them.

Same timer board, unplug Jake's chip, plug in Nyemi's chip, no glitch, no heating, no problem.. I have 5 HV boards and timer boards hooked up this way and all work exactly the same, soon as I put Jake's chip in and power up, swipe the magnet past the sensor, poof! No more transistor.

I also tried an earlier version of Jake's software, the one posted on the site at one time as being tested and working, and that version doesn't have the problem at all. Seems to be the last edited version that is the culprit.

Testing on an engine SIM is different than a live circuit. Can your engine SIM show you the amount of current draw on the transistor's junction? If it can, check it out. If it can't and still doesn't throw up a red flag somewhere indicating that the transistor has stopped oscillating, then you need to do some live circuit testing! I only have 3 transistors left out of my last 50 ordered until Monday. Can't afford to waste any now. I'm done testing till Jake fixes this.

John


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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/14/2012 8:19 PM   
Gompy



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From: Alkmaar, NETHERLANDS
Status: offline 		I've do the same John have done with our version(s) we have build the last 8 years, but with or withgout timerboard we have the same problem.
It looklike to me a self ocsilerend transistor, start fast and fatser and after a split second the transistor is opend compltete and distroyed by high current.
This only happend with no or slow pulses (rpm) and for some stranges reason not at high rpm (8 a 9,000 rpm).
We use the same ring core like John do / have done or e-cores, the result was allwas the same.
If I take a look on the internet for professional CDI schematic, they never use flybacks like we do.
They use setups like Nyemi have into the ZVS DC CDI, with differend kind of ocsilators but no one use free run flyback ocsilators.
They also use all the "Voltage safety switch", at 300 Volt they switch off / controle the ocsilator.
Thats also I want todo, it saves current and I think it's also better to contol the HV.
I want the best and I think thats wat we all want, but I'm not the software guy.
No complains to John, he is doing his very best to find the "bug", same Jake do, but I don't think it's only the software.
Both boards have to work without problems, we don't have to use both boards to eliminate the problems.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/14/2012 8:39 PM   
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Status: offline 		Wow, seems like some people are having problems and some aren't.

What makes it hard for me is that I haven't seen this problem in my testing. I've never burned out a transistor, nor seen any random sparks except for one at power up (sometimes) and one at power down (occasionally).

I'm not sure how the software could make this spark continuously. A falling or rising edge generates an interrupt, the interrupt service routine then reads the pin to make sure the signal is actually high or low (whatever it should be), and only then loads a spark delay into the compare module of the timer. Only when the compare interrupt is generated should it fire a spark.

To see if the engine is running the software only checks to see if the timer has overflowed a certain number of times since the last pulse.


Some people are having Q2 (2N4401) burn out? Am I understanding the circuit right? Q2 should always be high, except to trigger the spark right?


For the continuous sparking... Has anyone checked that there is not excessive ripple in the hall signal? Maybe the magnet is only halfway triggering the hall and that is causing it to oscillate between high and low?


I will definitely be working on this to solve the issues. If I had encountered these problems I would have let everybody know. If anyone can explain exactly how and when the problems are happening that would help me replicate and solve them. I'll check to see if I can get the continuous spark problem and poke around to see what might cause things to be left in the wrong state.


-Jake

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/14/2012 9:22 PM   
COM


 

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quote:


Testing on an engine SIM is different than a live circuit



Well not exactly. When I test it on my sim I am using a igniton system with sparkplug and the timer board. It acts just like it would if it was on a engine. only difference is that I can watch the signals(input, output) on my scope and read rpm. so The timer board does not know the difference.







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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/14/2012 9:52 PM   
COM


 

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quote:


Am I understanding the circuit right? Q2 should always be high, except to trigger the spark right?





IF you are talking about Q2 on the timer board then no it should not be always high. its a npn transistor. meaning that a logic 1 turns it on which will cause the signal to the hv board to go low.

quote:


Has anyone checked that there is not excessive ripple in the hall signal


I have not checked, but seeing that the whole setup is powered from a battery pack I don't think there is a whole lot of ripple. I will continue to try and reproduce the problem. I only noticed the issue after I had to make changes to the spreadsheet.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/14/2012 10:21 PM   
nyemi


 

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From: szarvas, HUNGARY
Status: offline 		Hi Jake
You do not deal with the Hall signal length.
If the signal is too long. The interrupt is generated.
Because of the long signal, electronic smog is present.
To overcome this problem.
If the input signal for sure. (GP2 control, after)
Clear INTCON register, INTE bits. (INTCONbits.INTE = 0
The output delay after. (GP0, GP1 default)
Turn on, again. (INTCONbits.INTE = 1
With this problem solved.


Hungarian
Ön nem foglalkozik, Hall jelnek hosszával.
Ha túl hosszú a jel. Az megszakítást generál.
Mert a hosszú jelben, elektronikus szmog van jelen.
A probléma  megoldása.
Ha a bemeneti jel biztos.(GP2 ellenőrzés, után)
Törölje INTCON regiszter, INTE bit. (INTCONbits.INTE = 0
A kimenet késleltetés, után.  (GP0-GP1 alap állapot )
Kapcsolja csak, újra be.(INTCONbits.INTE = 1
Evvel a probléma megoldva.


< Message edited by nyemi -- 10/15/2012 5:56 AM >

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 12:16 AM   
bluejets


 

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Status: offline 		Com,
The way that Q2 operates is as Jake said. It is in the "on" state and goes off when the spark is required.
The output works much the same as the suggested mod I posted for the hall switch. i.e. R7,C4 junction is held "low"

As soon as Q2 turns "off", C4 charges via R7,R8 and puts a positive pulse on the SCR gate, turning the SCR "on".

If Q2 is off longer than the required time for the gate to fire the SCR then this does not matter as the capacitor charging is now controlling the gate "on" time. The gate gets one positive pulse on each transition of Q2 from "on" state to "off" no matter what.

This however cannot control the off state of the SCR because the SCR requires commutation to turn it off once it is set on by the Q2 circuit. Commutation is either where the SCR is forced to turn off by making the cathode and anode voltage approx. the same by discharging the complete charge in the HV or by shorting out the SCR anode to cathode or by forcing it off using things like static dc circuit breaker.

Jake,
As far as I am aware, the transistor that John is burning up is the oscillator transistor Q3. I have had only one of these ever get "too hot" and it was because the HV transformer must have had a shorted turn somewhere. Difficult to know where because you destroy it getting it apart again. Not too sure if a shorted turns tester would detect it but do not have one anyhow. Put a newly wound one in it's place and everything back to artic conditions.

As far as I can see, this oscillator would work harder the more load was palced on it. If previously the oscillator runs fine, then it sort of points to self-oscillation where the oscillator is out of control, evident by the array of sparks John is experiencing.


John,
In itself, the hall effect switch works fine. The oscillator for most part works fine and as you said many times before, you have been using this as a HV source for years without any problems. It is compact which suits the application which all points to a reliable unit to me at least.

You said the oscillator keeps running if you hold the magnet over the hall switch, i.e. the software, for whatever reason, is seeing the input to the micro held in a "low" state. Seems to me that if you change the arrangement of the hall switch to what I had suggested, i.e. one pulse per high to low transition, you would only ever get the one pulse you require.

With the current problem, if you look at it from a logical point of view, the situation you are facing is the micro looking at a continuous low input and running the oscillator flat out as a result and trying to fix it with software. I cannot understand why the hall switch arrangement is not changed to make it just the one pulse like the micro and the software is expecting.

There may well be an interrupt on this input and I can see Nyemi's approach with the change-of-state register. It probably is a software bug but my point is, it that if you gave the micro only what it was supposed to see then the problem would go away. Everyone says it works fine except for this.

Jumping back a bit to Transistor Assist Ignition, it was a problem we used to face before micro's etc. where , if the ignition was left on and the magnet was sitting on the hall sw, it would supply the coil continuously and give the output transistor a real workout and over-heat. So we used a pulse arrangement there.

Cheers...Jorgo



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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 12:24 AM   
gr8flyer55


 

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Status: offline 		Jake, it's not the transistor on the timer board at all, but the MJE521 on the ignition board being destroyed by the fact that at less than an idle speed or engine not yet running, the signal to the SCR gate is not turning it off. As it is doing this, it acts like a dead short to the circuit, which in turn makes the MJE521 turn on too hard heating it up while it is trying to pump more and more current into the transformer primary winding. It is a thermal runaway situation, where the transistor gets so hot it can't turn off. I registered over 5 full amps of current draw from the transistor which is past the rating of 4 amps.
This problem only popped up after the last version change. Take a look at the "engine running?" lines to find what is different. I'm sure you'll see the problem in that area.

John


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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 1:49 AM   
bluejets


 

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Status: offline 		John,
Bit of confusion there sorry. Forgot you were using a different HV board but the same applies anyhow.

Saying the SCR is not turning off I'm assuming you mean it is running at exceptionally high frequency.

SCR can only turn on once because of cap in the gate lead and then off again when it dumps the HV into the coil.

If running at high hz then yes, getting a high hz signal.

You did say it is only when magnet is over the hall switch, is this still the case, then and only then...??

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 1:50 AM   
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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 2:03 AM   
gr8flyer55


 

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Status: offline 		Yes..it only happens if the magnet is held at the sensor any longer than to make a spark. Somewhere the signal is being repeated over and over and the scr never turns off, making it a dead short load to ground, as evident by the heating of the transistor. If I take a screwdriver and short out the .47 uf cap on the bottom of the board, the same thing happens, transistor is pumping current into the transformer so hard that thermal runaway takes place. Since the boards work normally with Nyemi's software in the chip, I suspect the problem lies in a signal not being turned off in Jake's chip. If I unplug the timer board from the HV board and replace it with the sensor, it functions normally at one fire per pass, turning off solid every time, no matter how slow I move the magnet.

John


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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 2:15 AM   
bluejets


 

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Status: offline 		Yes well it's not that the SCR is never turning off but rather that it is running at high hz I think you will find.

So from this I deduct that if you gave it just one pulse at the input then everthing would be fine..??

Do you see where I going...........???

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 2:45 AM   
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Status: offline 		OK, I've finally run the CDI on a real engine. I used a 2-stroke Homelite 25cc engine. Normally runs about 12-13 deg. advance. My hall sensor was about 40 deg BTDC and just using the flywheel magnet.

I tried it once with John's curve and couldn't really get it to run for more than a few sec. I did a 13 deg. flat curve and it ran at about 15 deg advance. It was a little jerkier than I would have liked. It seemed to jump around a little bit within a about 3 degrees. Part of the problem was that my hall sensor was not secure and was vibrating around a little.

I tried to get the continuous spark problem to happen. I couldn't get it to happen on the bench. When I tried on the engine the first time I also couldn't make it happen. But after I hooked everything up and ran the engine for a few sec a couple times then all of a sudden it started doing the continuous spark thing.

For some reason it wanted to spark continuously only when the magnet was tripping the hall sensor. I flashed a new curve onto the chip and got the engine actually running for a bit, but now I could not get the problem to happen!


This whole thing is kind of a mystery to me! I can't tell what caused the problem and I can't easily reproduce it! Flashing the chip fixed the problem, but I have no idea why. It didn't do it at first, then started doing it until I reflashed the chip, then didn't do it any more.

I didn't get any sort of transistor heating during any of this, but I didn't run for that long either. It's possible that the two issues are related.

I'll keep working on this and try to figure it out. Now that I can test on a real engine hopefully it will be easier to catch things like this and figure them out.

For the moment I don't have any good ideas. All I can think of is that there is some sort of hardware problem. Somehow the PICs memory is getting corrupted, noise in the power supply or on the pins could be falsely triggering something, or we're getting ringing or oscillation in some part of the circuit.

I hate to point fingers at the hardware, but it seems like the program works correctly most of the time. I just don't see how it can fire thousands of times and then all of a sudden not work right until it is reflashed, unless it is suffering from some sort of electrical problem somewhere.

The program doesn't write to it's own memory or eeprom, and there's really nothing I can think of in the program that would make it do this. There shouldn't be any read-modify-write problems since I use a shadow GPIO register. If the shadow register got out of sync then a pin could be inverted, but it still shouldn't spark continuously like that. With the double check in the ISR, high frequency noise on the hall line shouldn't be a problem.

The PIC memory must be getting corrupted somehow or it's getting bad ringing on the hall line somehow, but also in a way that's cured by reflashing it. I'm pretty stumped here for the moment. Any ideas are welcome.

Maybe running this on the 12F1840 can shed some light on things. On that chip I can actually use hardware debugging and see what's going on in the chip when it's running in the circuit, otherwise I'm not sure how to figure this out.


-Jake

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