RE: CDI gr8flyer55    Gallery
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as Guest



Users viewing this topic: none
    Search This Thread  
 
Printable Version

All Forums >> Glow Engines, Gas Engines, Fuel & Mfg Support Forums >> Engine Conversions >> RE: CDI gr8flyer55
Page: <<   < prev  21 22 [23] 24 25 26 27 28 29 30   next >   >>  

Tower Hobbies Get Coupon Codes Brands  
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 2:48 AM   
gr8flyer55


 

Posts: 800
Score: 600
Joined: 11/30/2005
Last Login: 5/22/2013
From: Hamburg, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Yes, I see where you are going with this, modify the circuit so it can only get one pulse. Well I just soldered the additional parts in place, and guess what happened? Yup, red hot transistor, hardware doesn't fix it either. Sorry to disappoint you but I actually thought for a minute it worked, till I got against the transistor and saw the smoke. Finger will heal, transistor, well lets just say it didn't fair as well.

John


Hide Signatures

(in reply to bluejets)
       Post #: 551

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 3:33 AM   
jakestew


 

Posts: 144
Score: 180
Joined: 8/13/2011
Last Login: 5/18/2013
From: Moscow, ID, USA
Status: offline 		Are you getting the continuous sparking and the transistor heating at the same time?

Have you tried reflashing? If you're using the spreadsheet hex, try compiling the code and see if it makes any difference.

And just to make sure, the reason the transistor is heating is because the PIC is holding the output low for too long? So pin 6 is low for too long, which is turning Q2 off, which is causing the SCR to stay on, which is allowing the capacitor to drain, which is allowing power to flow through the transformer, which makes Q3 draw too much power and over heat. Do I have that right?

If that is the case then it must be that the GPIO for pin 6 is out of sync and I guess it must be reversed from what it should be doing. It must be staying off all the time and only turning on when it should be firing the spark. If that's the case then something must be disrupting it so that it misses a change and is running opposite what it should be. I'm not sure how that could happen, I'm setting the bit rather than flipping it, so it should be fine the next time it triggers.

I'll keep looking into it. Everything always seems to run fine for me, except for that one time. I'll keep trying things and I'm sure it will happen again at some point, then I can study it further to try and get a better idea of what's happening.


-Jake

_____________________________

http://www.electrofunnel.com/CDI-2012/index.htm

Hide Signatures

(in reply to gr8flyer55)
       Post #: 552

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 4:40 AM   
gr8flyer55


 

Posts: 800
Score: 600
Joined: 11/30/2005
Last Login: 5/22/2013
From: Hamburg, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Jake, all you said in your post in the third paragraph is what is happening. The constant sparking, and transistor overheating happens at the same time. If I just start the engine, it's fine, but if I move the magnet to the hall and keep it there, it constantly sparks and heats the transistor on the hv board. At first, it was the dim led, then all this started. Maybe it is holding the pin low too long? Not sure since I have no real test equipment, just plug & play.

John


Hide Signatures

(in reply to jakestew)
       Post #: 553

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 4:48 AM   
bluejets


 

Posts: 234
Score: 205
Joined: 3/25/2009
Last Login: 4/15/2013
From: xnot applicable, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		Q2 is normally on.

When it turns off, then the pulse happens.

Q2 could stay off for a week and it would still only give the gate the one pulse.

Pulse feed the gate of the SCR and turns it on.

If SCR Anode Cathode voltage does not fall below the turn-off threshold, then SCR will remain on.



Hide Signatures

(in reply to jakestew)
       Post #: 554

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 4:51 AM  1 votes
CH Ignitions


 

Posts: 311
Score: 420
Joined: 8/20/2009
Last Login: 5/6/2013
From: West Palm Beach, FL, USA
Status: offline 		John, what hardware you are using...Tan or Green HV boards

Any of this should not burn out the MJE521. If it burns out you have a issue on the board. I will say throw that away and try a new one.

If any of those you use lower the 220 res.   on the flyback what value resistor you have on the base to 521. What Voltage you have on idle on the .47 after the 4007 diode.

Adrian

_____________________________

www.ch-ignitions.com

Hide Signatures

(in reply to gr8flyer55)
       Post #: 555

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 5:00 AM   
jakestew


 

Posts: 144
Score: 180
Joined: 8/13/2011
Last Login: 5/18/2013
From: Moscow, ID, USA
Status: offline 		Well, regardless if we figure out what is actually happening I think I can add some extra checking and reorganize the code a bit to make sure to avoid this constant sparking.

If that doesn't fix things then we'll have to look harder at the power supply and noise filtering.

_____________________________

http://www.electrofunnel.com/CDI-2012/index.htm

Hide Signatures

(in reply to gr8flyer55)
       Post #: 556

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 7:25 AM   
nyemi


 

Posts: 129
Score: 210
Joined: 2/19/2010
Last Login: 5/21/2013
From: szarvas, HUNGARY
Status: offline 		Hi Jake
Look at this picture.
What do you think?
I hope you understand what I want.



In my opinion.
The electronic interference filter out impossible.
Software should be done about it.



Attachments
Click to see fullsize image.
Click for fullsize


_____________________________

Regards nyemi.

Hide Signatures

(in reply to jakestew)
       Post #: 557

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 8:19 AM   
iura


 

Posts: 58
Score: 100
Joined: 6/16/2006
Last Login: 11/26/2012
From: tbilisigeorgia, GEORGIA
Status: offline 		Hi guys.
I think, that all problems is in the HV generator. Yes, self oscillator generator is a classic scheme and it works fine. Only I think we need to fulfill some conditions:
1. Stop HV generator when reaching HV tension on a cap.
2. Stop HV generator during SCR is open.
3. SCR must be open by input pulse duration during the HV cap is discharging.(about 1.5ms depends on HV tension and cpacity of HV cap.)


Hide Signatures

(in reply to jakestew)
       Post #: 558

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 8:26 AM   
bluejets


 

Posts: 234
Score: 205
Joined: 3/25/2009
Last Login: 4/15/2013
From: xnot applicable, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		I've seen that done on other systems also.

Hide Signatures

(in reply to iura)
       Post #: 559

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 8:44 AM   
nyemi


 

Posts: 129
Score: 210
Joined: 2/19/2010
Last Login: 5/21/2013
From: szarvas, HUNGARY
Status: offline 		Hi iura
OK
But I'm asking you.
Original ignition RCexl no problem.
(No high voltage off)
In my project code (ZVS DC CDI No high voltage off) with no problem.

Why does it work well?



_____________________________

Regards nyemi.

Hide Signatures

(in reply to iura)
       Post #: 560

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 10:27 AM   
COM


 

Posts: 396
Score: 100
Joined: 6/5/2009
Last Login: 3/13/2013
From: Ga, GA, USA
Status: offline
quote:


The way that Q2 operates is as Jake said. It is in the "on" state and goes off when the spark is required.


If you are talking about Q2 on the timer board then No it does not work that way. Define "on" state and "off state"

IF a NPN transistor is "on" then the transistor is fully saturated and the Collector and the Emitter are connected. With that being said if the emitter and the collector are connected this creates a low signal , which causes the .1 uf cap( in hv board) to discharge to the gate of the SCR, thus causing the 400v .47 cap to discharge through the ignition coil.

With a 680 ohm resistor feeding one side of a .1uf cap and a 220 ohm resistor on the other leg of the cap. the cap charges. a low going pulse at the 680 resistor/cap junction is what causes the 1.cap to discharge. There is no way that the SCR is "held on for too long".

_____________________________

Regards
Charlie M.

Hide Signatures

(in reply to nyemi)
       Post #: 561

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 11:07 AM   
Gompy



Posts: 402
Score: 460
Joined: 7/3/2010
Last Login: 5/18/2013
From: Alkmaar, NETHERLANDS
Status: offline 		@Nyemi, but you using a "controlled" Voltgae system at the ZVS.
You can't make spikes with this kind of transformer.
A flyback act like a bobine, it generate uncontrolled spikes.
The transistor can't handle this if the spikes will be to high, it blow it selfs.

The SCR can only shutdown if the Voltage is going true zero.
If the SCR stay open it will fire if the HV will be high enough to make a spark.

BTW, (you can read it back into the other topics) all over the last 8 years we have the same problem.

< Message edited by Gompy -- 10/15/2012 11:58 AM >

_____________________________

CU, Rob
http://www.electronics.gompy.net

Hide Signatures

(in reply to COM)
       Post #: 562

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 12:07 PM   
bluejets


 

Posts: 234
Score: 205
Joined: 3/25/2009
Last Login: 4/15/2013
From: xnot applicable, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		Just thinking out loud here but it may be something to do with different devices used for the SCR and Q3 and their characteristics.

Just as the oscillator circuit provides induction to a high voltage through the HV transformer, so transient voltages from the HV discharge can pass back the other way. This may have a beneficial or a degrading effect depending on when this occurs. i.e. if the phasing is correct it could tend to turn the Q3 transistor off for a short period during firing. If not, it might be possible to turn Q3 on harder.

SCR's are also susceptible to "rate of voltage rise". This can actually turn them on if excessive. Usually selecting a higher voltage SCR can be beneficial.


Hide Signatures

(in reply to nyemi)
       Post #: 563

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 12:24 PM   
gr8flyer55


 

Posts: 800
Score: 600
Joined: 11/30/2005
Last Login: 5/22/2013
From: Hamburg, PA, USA
Status: offline 		I have done this test over and over here but I know it's not the hardware. What I have in the chip now is Nyemi's software, and it works perfectly every time, no matter what I do. I pull that chip, plug Jake's in and immediately it malfunctions. Plug Nyemi's back in and it will run perfectly again. That test, to me, points to a software problem fellows, no matter how you look at it. I've tried it on every commercially manufactured ignition I have sitting here, DLE, Rcexl, DA, 3W, CH, and even mine which is actually a CH board and components. Tests are all the same, overheats the output transistor in the hv oscillator section on every one of these brands.
So you see, it isn't just my hardware, but a software signal problem causing this condition!!!!! Nothing more.

John


Hide Signatures

(in reply to bluejets)
       Post #: 564

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 12:49 PM   
Gompy



Posts: 402
Score: 460
Joined: 7/3/2010
Last Login: 5/18/2013
From: Alkmaar, NETHERLANDS
Status: offline 		John, we don't say it's your hardware, it's a combination of hard and software.
The hardware is a little critical and the software will do the rest.
Thats why I want to redesigne with the MC34063 a new hardwareboard.
It have the options to stop the HV if there is no spark needed.
It also controles the HV-Voltage and there are no components who can overheated.

We can try, if it is not a good designe we stop to find a other good HV-board.

You have also mention, I need the CDI for my bike so I need a secure CDI.
You can make your plane (..) plug and play, but I need more then 1 hour to replace the CDI if it fails.
Beside the road, into the rain or snow I don't think I can handle this......I think I leave the bike.

_____________________________

CU, Rob
http://www.electronics.gompy.net

Hide Signatures

(in reply to gr8flyer55)
       Post #: 565

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 1:10 PM   
gr8flyer55


 

Posts: 800
Score: 600
Joined: 11/30/2005
Last Login: 5/22/2013
From: Hamburg, PA, USA
Status: offline 		I'm ok with a redesign of the hv board. I have about 150 of my boards and timers that customers are using perfectly in their planes and helicopters at this time, so I know I have a good product out there. I would just like to see this new software work as good as what I am now using, just like everyone else. By the way, comparing jake's first beta version, that one did not have this problem at all, only the latest 2 versions. Something has changed, and it is not good.

John


Hide Signatures

(in reply to Gompy)
       Post #: 566

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 1:21 PM   
Gompy



Posts: 402
Score: 460
Joined: 7/3/2010
Last Login: 5/18/2013
From: Alkmaar, NETHERLANDS
Status: offline 		I don't say your HV isn't good, but for this designe it have a problem.

I try to make a flash / strobelight from a disposal camera, I use the hardware for a long time.
On boats and planes for navigationlights and also lost plane lights.
It works perfect, but wanted the tube flash at the same time with the spark is a problem.
The last couple of days I distroy at least 10 SCR's and I don't know why.
I use allmost the same schematic like we do to fire the SCR into the HV-board.

BTW, maybe the HEX will be mess up into the EXEL-sheet ?
Do you have to compare the HEX files from a good and a bad PIC ?

_____________________________

CU, Rob
http://www.electronics.gompy.net

Hide Signatures

(in reply to gr8flyer55)
       Post #: 567

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 1:29 PM   
bluejets


 

Posts: 234
Score: 205
Joined: 3/25/2009
Last Login: 4/15/2013
From: xnot applicable, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		Com,
SCR requires a positive pulse to turn on, so I still regard your opinion as incorrect.
Below are some supporting images and a web site where you can check if you want.

web site..... http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/rc/rc_3.html



Attachments
Click to see fullsize image.
Click for fullsize 		Click to see fullsize image.
Click for fullsize


Hide Signatures

(in reply to Gompy)
       Post #: 568

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 2:57 PM   
iura


 

Posts: 58
Score: 100
Joined: 6/16/2006
Last Login: 11/26/2012
From: tbilisigeorgia, GEORGIA
Status: offline 		May be one of the possible scheme?
Needs only HF generator implement in the chip (if it not too hard).


Attachments
Click to see fullsize image.
Click for fullsize


Hide Signatures

(in reply to gr8flyer55)
       Post #: 569

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 5:06 PM   
COM


 

Posts: 396
Score: 100
Joined: 6/5/2009
Last Login: 3/13/2013
From: Ga, GA, USA
Status: offline 		Blue jets you correct in that the scr needs a positive pulse.
But the transistor in the timer board does NOT supply the positive signal.

_____________________________

Regards
Charlie M.

Hide Signatures

(in reply to bluejets)
       Post #: 570

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 5:13 PM   
jakestew


 

Posts: 144
Score: 180
Joined: 8/13/2011
Last Login: 5/18/2013
From: Moscow, ID, USA
Status: offline 		Nyemi, thanks for your help.

If the hall input is really as dirty as the trace Nyemi posted then I think that is a problem. It would be good to put some low pass filtering on the hall input. Perhaps someone can do some calculations to find the proper cutoff and values.

Maybe some experimentation with the pull-up resistor on the hall line could also help with this.

One thing I can try is turning off the INTE in the GP2 ISR and then turning it back on after the spark fires. That should make sure that no interrupts are generated from random noise while the hall is on (low).


I've got some time today and the engine is here with me for testing. As soon as the locktite on the hall sensor mount dries I'll start testing things out. Should have done it last night, but didn't think of it.

It won't hurt to think of ways to possibly make the hardware setup a little smoother. A wee bit of analysis and tweaking might make things more reliable as far as the signals that the PIC sees. I really should have scoped things out better, but now that I have the engine running I'll have a better idea of the actual signal environment. If the hall signal really is that dirty then I think the falling edge is the way to go since it seems like a dirty signal when it's activated (low), but clean when it's off (high).

In any case stay tuned to the thread, the problem will be solved today.


-Jake

_____________________________

http://www.electrofunnel.com/CDI-2012/index.htm

Hide Signatures

(in reply to nyemi)
       Post #: 571

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 10:45 PM   
Gompy



Posts: 402
Score: 460
Joined: 7/3/2010
Last Login: 5/18/2013
From: Alkmaar, NETHERLANDS
Status: offline 		I can't go back with my Homy to normal......there is no ignition anymore.

Attachments
Click to see fullsize image.
Click for fullsize 		Click to see fullsize image.
Click for fullsize


_____________________________

CU, Rob
http://www.electronics.gompy.net

Hide Signatures

(in reply to jakestew)
       Post #: 572

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 10:56 PM   
COM


 

Posts: 396
Score: 100
Joined: 6/5/2009
Last Login: 3/13/2013
From: Ga, GA, USA
Status: offline 		Well Rob,

You should not have to. You have a pretty cool setup.... don't you?


Jake and all the rest This circuit has been around for 30 years or more and it is pretty bullet proof. I think that if something is causing the transistor in Johns HV board to draw too much amperage then it has to be in the software. I have 50 timer boards by different people and not one has caused this sort of problem. It all comes down to how you control the pic output. I will say that the commercial timer boards that I have do not work like this software.


Jake I sent you some screen shots of the input vs output from a commercial unit. and they all pretty much work the same and none have ever caused this sort of problem. I will stand by and see what you guys come up with.

_____________________________

Regards
Charlie M.

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Gompy)
       Post #: 573

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/15/2012 11:56 PM   
bluejets


 

Posts: 234
Score: 205
Joined: 3/25/2009
Last Login: 4/15/2013
From: xnot applicable, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: COM

Blue jets you correct in that the scr needs a positive pulse.
But the transistor in the timer board does NOT supply the positive signal.


You are still looking at the circuit operation the wrong way.

If you go to the drawing from the web site, look at the section "differentiator"
(which is essentially the Q2 collector connection in the HV board)
and ask yourself, is the collector going from
1........ low to high state (Q2 turning off)

or is it going from

2........ high to low state (Q2 turning on)

if it is 1, (going from low to hi state) the rising edge of the first square wave input,
then the corresponding waveform pulse is the first (positive) pulse at the resistor cap junction.

if it is 2, (going from hi to low state) the falling edge of the first square wave input,
then the corresponding waveform pulse is the second (negative) pulse at the resistor cap junction.

The SCR needs a positive pulse so the result of the above is No.1
How does the Q2 collector go from a low to high state..?? by turning it off.


Hide Signatures

(in reply to COM)
       Post #: 574

RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/16/2012 12:10 AM   
Gompy



Posts: 402
Score: 460
Joined: 7/3/2010
Last Login: 5/18/2013
From: Alkmaar, NETHERLANDS
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: COM

Well Rob,

You should not have to. You have a pretty cool setup.... don't you?


I don't think the Homy is a problem, I hope befor I reassamble the Homy the "transistor problem" have be solved.
I think it's a small problem, but we don't see it for some reason.

_____________________________

CU, Rob
http://www.electronics.gompy.net

Hide Signatures

(in reply to COM)
       Post #: 575

Page:   <<   < prev  21 22 [23] 24 25 26 27 28 29 30   next >   >>  
All Forums >> Glow Engines, Gas Engines, Fuel &amp; Mfg Support Forums >> Engine Conversions >> RE: CDI gr8flyer55
Page: <<   < prev  21 22 [23] 24 25 26 27 28 29 30   next >   >>  




Jump to:


 
Google 



Search | Marketplace | Event Calendar | Local Clubs | Magazine | Product Ratings | New Products | Discussion Forums

Photo Gallery | Instructor Search | Field|Track|Marina Search

Advertisers | Hobby Vendor Resources | Rate Manufacturers | Sign In/Sign Up

SITE MAP!   : :   FORUM RULES

RC Universe is a service of Internet Brands, Inc. Copyright © 2001-2013.

Charities we support that also need your help
Yorkie Rescue | Humane Society | ASPCA | Crohn's-Colitis America


0.922RCU1