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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/20/2012 11:02 PM   
bluejets


 

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From: xnot applicable, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		With the response to Ray's suggestion about a zener on the SCR gate, I'm just wondering if anyone saw the circuit for the dc static circuit breaker I posted earlier and /or understand what it does/can do...??

It is possible that it would be unnecessary given the HV worked ok before.

It does however, give a way of making sure the SCR turns off when required and not just rely on the AK voltage falling to zero under coil discharge. I also have a simple suggestion circuit to turn off the oscillator during discharge if requred.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/20/2012 11:38 PM   
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Status: offline 		When discharge, SCR is open, the capacitor is unloaded over the sparkcoil.
But the sparkcoil will do the same like the HV-coil was doing, the sparkcoil load the capacitor.
The Voltage turn backwards and load with a spike the capacitor.
Not to hole Voltage will be back into the capacitor, but enough to hold the SCR open.

My scope, digital, is not fast enough to see wat happen, better will be a scope with a tube for this kind of measurements.
I can't see spikes, LCD display are to slow to show them.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 12:11 AM   
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Status: offline 		Rob, what transistor is T1 in the schematic?

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 12:19 AM   
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Status: offline 		BC327 but a BC557 can do the job to

Tomorrow I make the board to test.
If it's working like I think it do I will make some for you too.
I have also put T1, the resistor and some components to secure the SCR on the PCB.
With this components I can also use the timerboard without changes.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 12:26 AM   
gr8flyer55


 

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Status: offline 		Jeff, what does your circuit look like for returning the voltage to zero?


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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 12:55 AM   
bluejets


 

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Status: offline 		The first circuit is to force the primary SCR to turn off. It uses a second SCR to dump a charged cap across the primary SCR which makes AK voltage zero. (same pic as post 603)

The second circuit should turn off the oscillator during discharge.
Rob might like to comment on that one.

Looks like jpeg conv. didn't turn out right. Base resistor is connected to micro output.





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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 3:00 AM   
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Status: offline 		I know what your saying Rob, I did most of my work without the aid of a scope. But I saved up $200 dollars CDN and finally got a 10mhz dual channel storage scope. 10mhz is fast enough for 90% of my work and it makes life sssooooo much easier. Now instead of taking 6 months to make something work I can do it in a weekend. The satifaction of making a project work is still the same but, cost a whole lot less. I say kudos to anyone that can make a complicated project work with just a DMM, I've been there and done that.

Ray

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 3:38 AM   
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Status: offline 		I know I should buy a scope sometime, but I've gotten along without one for 30+ years of building ignitions with only a DMM, I'd have to start over learning how to use it. Maybe it's just the challenge of building things without one that keeps me going in this hobby.

John


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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 4:29 AM   
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For my first 30 years I couldn't afford a scope either, even though at work I preferred to use them over a DMM. Now that I'm retired I use to borrow my friends scope but, he wouldn’t let me use it if I was working on my ignitions. My first scope the Phillips one I have now was a necessity when I was having problems with an invention I was working on and after starting a small computer repair and custom circuit business I don’t have time to guess at things.  Don’t get me wrong, I still grab the DMM before I grab the scope but, there are times when a scope is the only way to solve a problem.  Oh John about your transistors blowing remember it’s called R&D (Research & Destruction)

Ray



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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 8:06 AM   
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Status: offline 		Hi Gompy
I ask.
What kind of performance (W) and efficiency, waiting for the circuit?
You looked at the data sheet?



< Message edited by nyemi -- 10/21/2012 8:47 AM >

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 8:43 AM   
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Status: offline 		Calculate >50 mJ with 90% efficency.
Between our old board and this one, the spark was much bigger.
The spark from the old board was about 6 a7 mm, the board with the mc34063 can make sparks of 15 a 20 mm.
It was faster charging, it didnt overload and we dont have any distroyed transistors anymore.
I dont say its the best, but I think it will be better.
Im working also with a other schematic on computer, but that only a simulation.
They use a part of this schematic for 12V to 220V convertors for computers.
I need power for the bike ignition, not for modeling building.

@Nyemi, its like a Ferrari...great car but if I need every day a mechanic to start the car, its better to buy a Fiat 500 who can drive me when I want.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 8:53 AM   
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Status: offline 		Hi.Gompy.
I remember this scheme it good, but it seems to me the phase of secondary winding is not correct: it must be revert.


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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 9:17 AM   
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Status: offline 		The specs of the MC34063 say it's OK......but I gone finf out.

L1: transformer from Conrad Electronics,
order #:51 66 43-88
Pri: 25 turns 0.5mm wire
sec: 160 turns 0,15mm wire
IMPORTANT: Leave little space
between ferrit halves (piece of
paper on ONE Side)



BTW left the core for the model engine and right the core for my bike (~100W)
The schematic for the bike is also a little differend, it switch with FET's.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 10:01 AM   
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Status: offline 		4.8 to 6V input voltage will not reach 90% efficiency.
I counted.
50mJ*133Hz(8000RPM)=6650mW/0,9efficiency=7388mW=7,4W
DIP8 case.
The circuit is hot.
I do not prefer flyback topology.
CDI power supply only of limited use.
If you are familiar with the operation. You know that.
No fast cease operation.
The secondary circuit will continue to work.
I try out a lot of circuitry.

I look at the circuit.
Snubber circuit, why not?
Flyback topology is required.
No FET, SCR, tranformátor primary coil.



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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 10:27 AM   
Gompy



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Status: offline 		Only at full rpm the power will be high.
Not allways, if the HV will be shut-off it consume no power.
Now we will be there where we want.
If I can load the capacior fast, the electronics don't use power.
I don't say it will work like the datasheet say, but if we don't try we will come nowhere.

Commercial CDI use a big batterie and a big generator.
They don't matter wat kind of power the CDI use, they have enough power into the car / bike.

The flyback John use is working, but it have the "transistor problem".
Thats why I try to find a other schematic who don't have this problem.
I can't use big components like you do for RC models, for the bike it's no problem.
Now we are back where we started, find the right schematic with less components and no "transistor problems".

No one of us is a proffesional of CDI-technologie, we all good willing guys without enough money to give the order to a specialist.

Most programmers don't have a connection with the rc models, they can program, they know how to program but they don't know why they program like we wish.
Jake is doing a good job, I can't do it, but tackle the problem will be something else.
Into the simulator everthing lookslike OK, but it don't work when we put it into the boards and use it.
No problem, but it takes time to solve the problem, same with the HV-board.......it takes time and the knowledge from all of us.

BTW, I've see your youtube movie and the sparkcoil you use lookslike a milkbottle.
Thats also why you get a spark like a tacer.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 11:24 AM   
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From: szarvas, HUNGARY
Status: offline 		Thank you for your response.
The high efficiency of the push-pull number one.
Use the "ZVS" advantage.
Search for Push-Pull driver integrated circuit.(IR2153, TL494, SG3525,?)
Flyback topology forget.
I speak from experience.


< Message edited by nyemi -- 10/21/2012 8:32 PM >

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 11:44 AM   
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Status: offline 		I think you know this schematic, thats wat I want to use for the bike (HV-board) ignition.
The timerboard doesn't matter, I want a good working timerboard and if it is from Jake, you or some one else.....so what, it have to work.



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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 3:33 PM   
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Status: offline 		Rob, just some information here, not saying you have to use it, but I've been running a Harley sportster with my ignition and timer board, using a 5 volt LM7805 voltage regulator and 2 of the small coils like I sent to you. It is working for 2 years now without any failures of any kind. I used the regulator to step down the system voltage from 12 volts to 5 volts only because of the 12f683 chip being a 5.5 volt max input voltage. Other than that, I am using the Original Harley hall sensor on the timing plate, locked at 28 degrees. I still need a better 4 stroke curve for better performance, but it does start and run great for the last 7,000 miles!

I used our old timer board that had the 16f628A chip, made a new board, and used the old software that Nyemi's converted to the 12f683 chip for us, and one of your old 4 stroke curves.

So it is possible! I even tried it on another one with points and the old mechanical advance and that one also has no problems in 2 years of daily riding. Easy starts and very reliable! Cost was about $8 to build, compared to buying a Harley replacement ignition for $110 !!!

John


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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 3:46 PM   
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Status: offline 		More info here. With my hv board, engine not running, it draws only 65 mah current from the battery. At 7000 rpm, only 350 mah.
You could run your bike for over 2 hours on a small 1000 mah battery pack. Lol

John


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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 5:14 PM   
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Status: offline 		We have "europian" problems with bikes for the last couple of years.
With my driverslicence a have allways run *big* bikes like Jawa, CZ, Norton and even a Harley from the USArmy out of the war 1945.
With the new rules I may only drive with the new law 25 kW and my bike have about 75 kW.
If the police stops me, I have a real problem, they take my bike and I have bringh him within a few weeks back to 25 kW.
Wat wil I do, I want to use the two tables from Jakes timer, one curve for 25 kW and one curve all open
When they stop me, I switch the motor off and the 25 kW curve will loaded when I start.
On the road I'll switch over to the all open curve with a kind of morse code.

So the HV-board must be reable and have enough power to make high rpm, ~15 - 18,000 rpm (it's a Aprilia and not a Harley)
The timerboard I need must have at least two tables, otherwise I can't switch between low and high power.
For the best performance I need 5 tables, I've 5 gears and if you want get out the best every gear needs his own curve.

I only try some schematics to find the best, your will be first becaus its ready to use.
The one I build with the MC34063 is only a test and maybe a better HV-board yor using now....who knows, we can only try to find out.
Nyemi is right when he say forget the flyback, I have also only problems from start 8 or 9 years ago.
Sometimes it works very well, no problems at all and sometimes I can't get the board only on and blowup the transistor.
Thats why I try to find a HV-board without the transistor with a steady frequentie so I know the rpm I can make and how fast I can load the capacitor.
Again, it's not I don't trust your HV-board but I need something allways work without problems......it takes 1 hour only to chamnge the candle

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 9:29 PM   
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Status: offline 		I've run the CDI several times today with my software and it seems to be working great!

All I can figure out is that there might be some problem with specifying the memory address of the table and the pointer scheme I use for referencing them.

I've changed:
static const uint16_t AdvanceTable1[256] @ 0x03F0 =
To:
static const uint16_t AdvanceTable1[256] =

This seems to have fixed the problem as far as I can tell. It was always an intermittent problem for me though. Sometimes things worked, sometimes the LED would say on when the magnet was near the sensor. Only once did it actually keep sparking when the magnet was there. Since some curves seemed to work and some didn't I can only think that there was something going on with the memory and addressing. This is my first PIC project, so I'm not sure exactly how the memory paging works and it seems that the compiler is maybe not taking care of this properly for me.

I also noticed that the LED turns on very easily. Just touching the underside of the board is enough to turn it on.

In any case I'm working through the code and tuning it up. I'll try to have another version out soon. The spreadsheet hex generator will have to wait for later when I figure out the memory issue.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 10:11 PM   
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Status: offline 		Have you set pull-up / pull down resistants intern on into your code ?

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/21/2012 10:47 PM   
Gompy



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Status: offline 		Something else, I think some of you have a Android GSM.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=it.android.demi.elettronica&feature=search_result#?t=W10.

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/22/2012 12:02 AM   
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Status: offline 		Nice link, that seems like a handy program.

WPU = 0b110101; // Internal pull-ups on GP5+4+2+0

Pull-ups are on for the three inputs (hall, table switch, kill switch). GP0 pull-up (LED) is also set to on, but since it's an output this is actually disabled.


I've been running different curves and settings all day long now and haven't had any problems. Table and kill switches are working just like they should, everything seems to check out.

I really can't figure out what the bug was or if there really ever was one. Some of my problems were likely due to the crappy socket I soldered into the timer board. The only other thing I can think of is that the pro version of the compiler is doing some optimization that fails to generate stable code. I'm running on the free version now that my trial expired.

Whatever the case I'll put out a new version tonight and we'll see if people still have problems.


-Jake

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RE: CDI gr8flyer55 - 10/22/2012 1:12 AM   
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Status: offline 		I just put v0.99 beta 8 out on the website.

I eliminated the hex file generation button and am letting the compiler specify the memory locations for the tables.

I also increased the speed of the main loop to make it respond faster to the table and kill switch. They should now respond in about a quarter sec. instead of half a sec or more.

I changed the routine for loading table values in order to start the timer at the end of the ISR. This makes it so that the minimum load value is 1 instead of 7. It may cause the RPM measurement to be a little inflated (~6 uS or so), but I think this is not significant.


I'd also like to change the way we are reporting bugs. Feel free to keep posting them here, but first send me an email report with the files you are using attached.

So if you find a bug please describe the conditions that cause it in your email. Also tell me which version of the compiler you are using and if you are using free or pro mode. Make sure to attach the spreadsheet with your curves and table values, the actual code you are compiling, and the generated HEX file.

Having all of this will make it a lot easier on me to figure out what is going wrong. In my early testing I was having some curves work just fine while others were causing problems. Hopefully this is now fixed, but if I can't replicate the problem then I can't figure out what is going on or fix it.

Everyone please use the free version of the compiler for now. The tiny bit of memory the pro version saves is not important, and certainly not worth any potential headaches. It is not uncommon for compiler optimizations to cause problems with certain programs, and until I can nail down for sure the exact compiler optimizations that will for sure work we don't need to be throwing this potential problem into the mix.


The recent posts here should give people a clue that there are dangers involved in testing beta code. If my code burns out a transistor, LED, SCR, etc. or blows up your engine... I'm truly sorry. All I can tell you is that it works for me, with my setup, with my engine. I would never release code that destroyed my own setup, but that is the ONLY warranty I can make.

I currently use the hardware setup that John sent me. I run the code on a Homelite 25cc 2-stroke engine. Today I reflashed my chip about 15 times with slightly different settings, they all seemed to work flawlessly.

The only "problem" I seem to be having is that the LED isn't useful. I haven't found a setting yet that really lets the flashes show. You can play with Trigger_Pulse_Time in the code to find a setting that works. I tried several settings, but I don't use the LED and just ran out of patience trying to find the right setting today. At these speeds turning the LED on and off is essentially just running it off a PWM output. For me it's just getting brighter and dimmer. The best setting is probably less than the 20 uS setting that's currently in the code.


-Jake

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