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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 10/25/2011 11:00 AM   
erans


 

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Status: offline 		The WACO took a bit longer then expected to complete, and I have used the opportunity that the desk was clean yesterday to do some preventive maintenance on my SU-31, so today it was back to the ME-109.

I have decided to assemble the stainless steel torque rod and the slats push-rods before I cover the top of the wing with Fliteskin. I think this is by far easier then trying to do it after applying the Fliteskin... While I admire the simplicity of the idea to run all flaps and slats with single servo, I personally would have preferred to use servo for each surface if I knew how difficult it will be to set this torque rod and associated push-rods up. I know that for people who build scale aeroplanes day in and day out are wondering now what is he winging about, but I found it quite challenging today. I had to do some cut-outs to the spars to allow the push-rod and quick-links to move freely. I am not worried to the wing strength as the Fliteskin cover will make the wing very strong once fully applied.

I think that trying to get all the surfaces moving the correct amount will be extremely challenging with this setup, so I may still revert to a setup that eliminated the torque rods (I am not after perfect scale anyway). I also probably will use a servo for each wing half (if I will keep the torque rod setup) to make things a bit simpler to adjust (only 3 surfaces per servo movement).

Eran


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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 10/27/2011 7:49 AM   
erans


 

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Status: offline 		If you were wondering what is going on with the progress, well, not much really.
It looks to me that my main problem with the slats operating mechanism is that the brass tubes were glued as per the laser marking on the ribs, which I think is the wrong angle. As a result, the 3/32" E/Z Adjust Horn Bracket (for 4-40 Thread) part (Du-Bro 557) hit the spar and require taking a fair bit of material off (from the spar and the ribs). I had to remove the retaining springs from the 4-40 Spring Steel Kwick-Links (Du-Bro 601) to allow it to move in between the ribs and the "false ribs" (W7B and W9B).
The maximum travel I manage to get is 15mm, which is less then the 17mm required by the plans. If you look closely at the photos, there is also the issue of the E/Z protruding above the wing top surface in the slats "closed" position, so I had to shave a bit off it. To top it all, I broke the TE spar while working on the installation and had to fix it.

I will admit that the slats mechanism installation quite frustrate me as you probably noticed by now. It is up there with the former for the tail wheel installation in frustration. For such an amazing kit that is an absolute joy to put together, the slats mechanism installation just doesn't cut it. With today's modern computer radios and the small servos available, I cannot see why there was a need to go to this trouble. But, saying that, for the moment I will keep it and will have another look into it later.
My original plan was to have both top sides of the wings covered with Fliteskin by today, but obviously it was not meant to be. With the long weekend holiday here in WA Australia starting tomorrow I find it hard to believe that I will have time to work on the Me-109 in the next few days, but maybe my wife will surprise me.

Jose - Can you please have a look at the marking for the slats tubes and the addition of parts F4 for the flaps currently missing for future laser cut kits? I hope I do not upset you with my comments, I know that you probably set up this mechanism in 20 minutes flat, but obviously I am not there with my building techniques and would have preferred more simple install


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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 10/28/2011 3:34 AM   
JGrc



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Status: offline 		Hi Eran,
the flap/slat torque rod was my preferred way to operate them being the most efficient and simple, but the builder has always a choice to come up with their own ideas. I figured setting up each pushrod takes the same amount of time regardless of them being operated by a servo or by a torque rod.
WHen I built the prototype, I did not have to cut the spar, only a small grove was filed to allow for the pushrod that moves the slat. Like you mention, I also realised the pushrod was pretty close to the skin when retracted, so I changed the angle slightly for the next laser cut run. I also had to trim a little of the top part of the plastic horn bracket so it would not bump against the skin. I used 2/56 threaded rod for the small pushrods that take smaller horn brackets.
The Flap rib No.4 was for some reason left out of the balsa sheet I just noticed, so I added it to the CAD file for the next run. I apologise.
Let me know if you need any more help.



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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 10/28/2011 4:06 AM   
erans


 

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Status: offline 		Thank you Jose, I will change the 4-40 rod to 2-56 and see if I get better clearance. I now see that I red the plan wrong referring to the writing "4-40" below the rod. I am a bit concerned with the amount of spar I had to shave and if the 2-56 provide better clearance I will beef up the spar up again.

As for your offer for help, I was wondering if you have an easy method of attaching the slats rods to the fibreglass slats you have provided me with? I saw that you and Casey used build-up slats which provide depth to insert the rod into. Obviously this is not available on the fibreglass slats.
I was also wondering if you know what is the safe pressure for the supplied retracts? As it is my first retracts set I would like to test my installation first on a test stand.

Eran




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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 10/28/2011 4:20 AM   
JGrc



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Status: offline 		Eran,

To use the fiberglass slats, you should glue some scrap balsa so the rods have a little "meat" to hang on to. You can glue an inner wall with some scrap fliteskin if you want them a bit stiffer. The push rods don't need to go too deep, there is no stress on the slats.
The retratcs will take 100lbs at least, which will give you about 5/6 cycles. It depends on your T's and connections as well. Try to position the connections and T's where you can test them for leaks in the future.
You can skype me on the weekend: Butcherbird1

JG

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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 10/28/2011 7:21 AM   
erans


 

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Status: offline 		Surprisingly I managed to escape to my "aeroplanes room" for few minutes, so I have cut a piece of Fliteskin, pinned it to the right wing and marked the edges as per Jose's build instructions to allow for the wing curvature (and forgot to take a picture of this stage). I have then marked the top sheeting lines from the plan (the blue lines in the photo) and cut accordingly. I have then test fitted the sheet again and I made a cut for the slat.


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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 10/29/2011 1:57 AM   
erans


 

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Status: offline 		I am getting more time then expected this long weekend, so with few more free minutes I have replaced the 4-40 rods operating the slats with 2-56 as per Jose's comments. This will allow better clearance for the top spar next to W7 rib where the torque rod is.


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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 10/29/2011 3:25 AM   
JGrc



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Status: offline 		Here are a few shots of my build. I used the lighter plastic 2/56 clevises that snap lock and are easy to adjust.

JG

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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 10/31/2011 11:06 AM   
erans


 

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Status: offline 		The moment of truth came and it was time to glue the Fliteskin onto the wing. I found it easier then it was with the small parts (Flaps and ailerons). All these years of keeping my RC magazines paid off.
After waiting for few hours, it was time to have a look at the result and I was quite afraid from what I will find when I remove the "weights". It came out quite good, I am happy with it. Tomorrow hopefully starting preparation for the left wing.


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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 10/31/2011 6:55 PM   
dvs1



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Status: offline 		Keep up the good work, I enjoy watching yours and Glaziers Fliteskin builds, I hope I'll get around to doing one in the future. I really do think they are an excellent kit.

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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 11/1/2011 8:19 AM   
erans


 

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Status: offline 		Thank you dvs1, anybody looking for a high quality project should look at one of the Fliteskin "kits". If the workmanship that went into the ME-109 is representative of the standard (which I am sure it is), then the quality you get is up there with the best you can ask for. Add to that Jose's commitment to support the build of the people purchasing these "kits" (as can be seen frequently on my thread) which I think is unheard of, and you have all the reasons you need to get yourself one of them.
I will be the first to admit that I was punching above my experience level with this one, but what I have learned so far just from this build is very rewarding. And when I get stuck or frustrated with something, Jose is always there with advice. I can also give you a hint that Jose is not resting with the offerings he already have. A while ago he sent me some photos of the work he is doing on the Ta-152 prototype and I am thinking already on how I can explain to my wife that I need to build one of them... If I could only fit it in my "RC room"...

Back to what I managed to do today, I have assembled the torque rod and slat mechanism in the left wing. It took much less effort compared to the right wing as I knew I am supposed to carve the spars and the ribs to allow full movement. I did managed to make damage to the spare and cut it completely... Some more re-work :-)
I also added couple of photos of the skinned right wing from the bottom which I forgot yesterday.


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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 11/2/2011 4:56 AM   
erans


 

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Status: offline 		I feel that I was quite productive this morning. I glued the skin on the left wing. No more work today until it dry.
The photos show the application of the Fliteskin on the wing from laying it on, marking the main features to allow for the curvature, check before applying the Gorilla glue that the cutting is correct, and the weight applied on the glued Fliteskin as it dry.


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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 11/2/2011 4:32 PM   
vertical grimmace



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Status: offline 		Considering that the slats on the full scale 109 were free floating, and engaged when the correct aerodynamic forces were present, when would be the time when you would activate these servo operated slats? Should these not be free floating as well to be scale?

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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 11/3/2011 12:42 AM   
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Status: offline 		Yes, they should, but I bet that weighting them and getting the operating friction both sides exactly the same would be a bit of a pain, and unbalanced operation at the wrong time...switched in with flap operation would be the best 'model' idea, and it would have to be a two position, 'in' and 'out' idea. Half open slats would not be an option...
Evan, WB #12.

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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 11/3/2011 1:06 AM   
erans


 

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Status: offline 		vertical grimmace, pimmnz, by design in this "kit", the use of single torque rod through the wing connected to the flaps and the slats eliminate the capability for separate use. Obviously you can use separate servo to operate it, which is something I was considering doing, but not because I wanted it more scale, but rather because I think it will be easier to adjust to work correctly. I will not consider free floating slats for obvious aeroplane control reasons.
The full movement of the slats is ~17mm forward, so I do not think it will be highly visible from the ground even on a fly by anyway.

Last night I removed the weights and looked at the skinning of the left wing. It came out even better then the right wing, probably as perfect as I can imagine it it possible to do. Practice obviously makes perfect.



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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 11/3/2011 2:45 AM   
JGrc



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Thanks for the comments Erans.
Pimmnz, you are correct. free floating slats would be delicate to set up and hard to determine the right spring pressure for deployment. Very prone to asymmetrical deployment.
On the other hand, when combined with flaps, they create a noticeable effect during landings, it really lowers the stall speed.
Maybe someone can come up with a scale slat system in the future?? having an airspeed sensor on board could be one of the ways to do it.

JG





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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 11/3/2011 4:30 AM   
dvs1



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Status: offline 		You have to think about the real slats too, they are pretty heavy and would only deploy when airspeed is low enough. They were not spring loaded if I remember right they only opened by their own weight. With a 1/5 scale model or even if it was 1/4 scale the slats are so light that I think they would close as soon as you got moving down the runway, maybe even as soon as you hit full throttle from the prop blast. If you spring loaded them that would be a real pain and lots of trial and error in the air to get the pressure just right and even then they probably would not be semmetrical, causing roll problems. I really think that the way Jose has designed them with servo operation is the best all round method, while not being perfect scale it has the performance of the aircraft in mind and the safety of the plane. I'm getting jealous just talking about it because I really want to try my hand at building that wing. The operational slats are so cool. Keep up the good work.

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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 11/3/2011 5:25 AM   
saramos



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Status: online 		I was considering slats on an ME262 build, but backed off. Main reason is that the build is for a friend and not my own. Also, the kit has glass wings which prevents planning them to be integral to the design of the wing. I was thinking that I wouldn't go so far as to make them spring loaded as on the full scale, but to use servos slaved to the flaps or gears. The advantage to slaving to the flaps is that they would always work in conjunction. The advantage of them being slaved to the gears is that they would always be extended when on the ground.


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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 11/3/2011 5:27 PM   
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Status: offline 		Erans,

You build is looking great! I've been trapped in the mountains winterizing our cabin for the past couple of weeks, but I'm done with it all now. I'm still awaiting my ESC for this plane from CastleCreations(they are on backorder due to recall) At this point I'm ready to mate the wings. I'll be getting back on this build with passion soon....as you can tell, it is a build that you need to have your head wrapped around firmly at times. Not overly difficult, you just need to pay attention!...I've not had the extra brain power here of late....must be my old age lol...

one thing I can say, is to trust Jose's design... he's put alot of time and effort into it, and its solid!

Casey

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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 11/3/2011 11:50 PM   
pimmnz


 

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Status: offline 		The original 109 slats operated at an AOA. In theory, and in practise, any time you reached this AOA, and it is not airspeed dependant, then they open. The operational power came from the reduced air pressure over the wing leading edge as the AOA increases ('sucked' out). Hence the problem in turbulent air behind a big target, (uneven opening in the bumps, causing aileron snatch) and that they would open on the inner wing in a tight turn, upsetting things a bit, and the requirement to balance them so that they operate at the same 'weight'. The model problem is that the wing won't reach the AOA's of the full size so the power to operate independant, automatic slats just isn't there, so they have to be servo operated. It would be good to be able to operate them independantly of the flaps, so that in 'high G' situations you could pop them out and get a couple more degrees AOA to help the turn, and of course, at low speeds to retard the stall. Then the problem only becomes one of remembering what position they are...
Evan, WB #12.

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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 11/4/2011 2:31 AM   
erans


 

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Status: offline 		Casey, no kidding heaving to have your head wrapped around firmly... As my time to build is currently constraint to short bursts of productivity between other tasks it is getting harder to get things right.
Not for a second I was questioning Jose's design. What I am questioning is my capability to execute it. There is however a great feel of achievement when I finally get there. As you already know, I am looking forward to see your build completed and get some flying report. Funny enough, usually when I read RC Magazine I ignore advertisement regarding electric power equipment. On the last Model Aeroplane News magazine I stumbled on Castle Creation advertisement saying "We appreciate your loyalty" and I was thinking of you... By now I would have get something else...

As to the slats debate, I dare thinking the answers I would have to provide a Heavy Model Inspector here in Australia on automated or free floating slats... The aeroplane will never receive certification to fly without solid data on how and when exactly deployment will occur on safety grounds. Obviously, if you can provide proof that it is safe through testing and data, then maybe you will have the aeroplane certified, but it will save so much headache to just having it controlled by command...

Back to the build, I have started to glue the shear webs and as always asking myself where was my head when assembling the wing? I could have used these CAD laser cut parts as spacers for the wing ribs and it would have been easier and stronger to do glue them before skinning...



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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 11/7/2011 10:10 AM   
erans


 

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Status: offline 		I was working on completing bits and pieces in the wings in the little time I had today as can be seen in the photos. I am getting excited seeing it coming together so nicely. I will have to book the heavy model inspection for the wings very soon.
Jose, can you please clarify what is the "balsa fill" as shown on the plan in the attached photo? I could not see anything there in any of the photos in your build or Casey's.


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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 11/8/2011 12:04 AM   
JGrc



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Status: offline 		Eran,
balsa fill means: using a 3/32 or 3mm, sheet between the ribs and stringers.

JG

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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 11/8/2011 12:22 AM   
erans


 

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Status: offline 		Thank you Jose for the quick reply.


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RE: Another Fliteskin ME 109 build thread - 11/8/2011 10:18 AM   
erans


 

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Status: offline 		Today I had a bit more time, so I have decided to have a go at the landing gear. This is the first time I am installing retractable landing gear. From reading the threads of Jose and Casey, I am aware that there is a difficulty to get the wheel to completely be enclosed in the wing also Casey seem to have managed to do so with what looks like identical retract to my own.

First task was to sand the laser cut squares where the hardwood mount sit and provide for the angle. I have then cut formers W4 and W5 on the laser cut line.
Putting the retracts on the mount with the pivot point in the exact location shown on the plans, it was obvious that some sanding to the hardwood will be required on one side to lower the landing gear mounting bracket into the wing. The problem is that this change the angle of the landing gear when open (the angle forward), which make me think that I may need to do the same on the other side to keep it correct.
The next photo shows that with the pivot point as in the plans, the wheels with this Sierra retracts are not going to require the cut in W5 as the landing gear is probably slightly shorter then the original gear that was used on the design phase.
It was immediately obvious that the spar and the remaining of rib W4 needs to be trimmed to the skin. At that stage I thought that I will be able to get everything into the wing if I will lower the mount by 1/4" (and this is why it is marked in blue as well), but after more time experimenting I do not think that it will help. Anyway, looking at the photos in Casey's build show that he didn't lower the mounting hardwood and he still manage to hide it all in the wing, so I am doing something wrong.
The next two photos show the wheel retracted from head-on angle and slightly higher then head-on angle showing the portion protruding out. The wheel is touching the top wing skin from the inside and I cannot see how without a "blister" I can get it enclosed. I will need to spend some more time experimenting...

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