rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (Full Version)

All Forums >> [RC Airplanes] >> Aerodynamics



Message


Ben Lanterman -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/21/2003 12:29:21 AM)

I was out flying today.

Since retirement, and since my wife loves me, that happens more often now than when I worked. Since 5 bypass surgery and a valve replacement it is important that I always have someone with me. She is by far the prettiest of the folks that I know. Off the track though.

I flew the Cap and a QuickFly III (KwikFli, QickFly, QuickFli, etc). Most of the aero moments in pitch, roll, and yaw are close enough to each other that they don't really matter. The horizontal tail height relative to the wing is within a few percent of wing mac of each other.

The main difference is that at least 35-40 percent of the rudder area on the Cap is below the location of the horizontal tail, along with a lot of fuselage area while on the QuickFly maybe 5-10 percent of the rudder area is below the horizontal tail along with less fuselage area.

The Quick fly has very little pitch response when in level flight and the rudder is deflected. In knife edge it seems to need a little up elevator but not much. Without rudder the deviation toward the belly of the airplane is small.

The Cap has a lot of pitch response nose down when the rudder is deflected. In knife edge it seems to need a lot of up elevator, a lot. Without rudder the deviation toward the belly of the airplane is a lot - big.

The conclusion is that the pitch response as a result of rudder deflection is a function of where the horizontal tail is located vertically along the vertical tail and rudder.

It has to be a function of pressure differential across the horizontal tail - after all the way all aerodynamic surfaces work (including the control surfaces) is by pressure differential. If you look at the two configurations from the rear and put in pressures before and after rudder deflection (just relative pressures will do) it works out fairly well.

Since in level flight the horizontal tail on these kinds of force and moment setups has an upload on the horizontal tail that is proportional to the wing lift (both are always the same angle of attack modified by downwash) you would think that an airplane that is rolled 90 degrees should not pitch at all. No downwash, wing and tail at the same angle of attack - the resultant is probably zero.

The airplane that pitches the least in knife edge is the one that is the most pure aerodynamically in all axes.

Granted the QuickFly rudder location with respect to the airplane roll axis will give a roll opposite the direction of deflection but this is probably less objectional than the rudder-pitch coupling.

One conclusion is that the old Quick Fly is better than the Cap in this respect. Something that on first glance I wouldn't have believed.




peso -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/21/2003 1:12:58 AM)

Interesting reading. I have a Cap but my Kvick-Fly the original one died 15 years ago so unfortunately I canīt repeat the tests.

But there are other differences between the two planes. As far as I remember there was no balooning problem when landing the Kvick-Fly. This canīt be said about the Cap which is awfull in this repect. There are theories about the reason for this but I have not seen any verifications yet. It is pity that noone has modifed a Cap. First thing would be to move the stabilizer downwards an inch or two. The other thing would be to move it backwards. I bet that it would be as easy to land as an Extra (or a Kvick-Fly) if this was done. And the the pitch coupling would decrease.
/PO




Tall Paul -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/21/2003 1:37:05 AM)

I've been flying these... looking for the pitch-up in flair, and the pitch-down with rudder.
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/aerostuff/4FunFlies-01.jpg
None of them pitch up in flair.
The scalish CAP does pitch down with rudder, and requires a lot of up-elevator mix in KE flight. It requires a LOT of down-elevator inverted.
The Ultimate will do a snap-roll rudder only! KE is towards the belly.
Lots of down-elevator inverted.
The Top Cap is the sweetest flier I have! It makes 3D too simple... No observed problems in KE due to rudder.
Very little down elevator inverted.
The bottom plane is a SIG Fazer, with "CAP" modifications to the tail. Another sweet flier, but somewhat less than the Top Cap. KE pitches lightly to the canopy.
No down elevator, inverted.




Mike James -> Yep (8/21/2003 3:28:00 AM)

I agree that stab/elevator placement is a big part of the nose-pitching issue. Last year, I did my own little science experiment with an old Ultra Sport .40

Moving the stab down to the thrust line nearly eliminated the pitching with rudder application. (I also rebuilt the vertical fin/rudder to include a vertical (90 degree) hinge line.)

The article is at http://www.nextcraft.com/us40bash.html

Results proved the theory.




Johng -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/22/2003 6:36:06 AM)

Yep, when I first flew my CAP, I could not believe the amount of coupling from the rudder. I had the low rate elevator set to where it had just enough power to stall the plane. So, fly up to the stall and nail full rudder - and get a diving turn :confused:

I literally could not snap the plane (intentionally) on low rates with use of a lot of rudder. I added a multi-point mix to neutralize pitch change with rudder and soon after noticed the adverse roll-coupling with rudder. How can they design a plane that fights with itself so much??

Shortly after that it died of engine failure on a steep takeoff.

It had great pitch authority in 3D and rudder power to pull vertical out of knife edge. But all that coupling has me wondering how someone could strap themselves into the FS version of this plane.




Tall Paul -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/22/2003 7:41:47 AM)

There's a full-scale CAP site which praises the low-speed handling of the 232!
The models sure don't inspire confidence!
My scale Ultimate (before it crashed and was repaired) was capable of a 540 degree "Stall turn" and come out pointed straight down.
Now it rolls so badly it's inverted at the 180° point, with only the rudder.




Tall Paul -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/27/2003 4:08:51 AM)

Last week I flew the Stickit, Top Cap, Fazer and Somethin' Extra to get a feel for what does what after flying the CAP.
Today took the CAP out again, and it's so poor it almost went directly to the landfill right across the road from the flying field.
Lo-rate elevator is less than 10°, yet it snaps from level flight. Accelerated manuvers are almost unpredicable as to when/if it will recover. And this with the c.g. moved forward.
Gonna saw the horizontal off.
and then:
1) build a new horizontal installed close to the centerline of the wing instead of 5 inches above..
or.
2) move the c.g. even more forward, make the ailerons into elevons... :)




Ben Lanterman -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/27/2003 5:46:55 AM)

I am really looking forward to your results. I was at a typical pattern contest last weekend, boring to watch but airplanes sure fly nicely. Wings and tail were all aligned and tails were low compared to a Cap. Here is a photo of a Cap full scale. That is quite a gap.




Tall Paul -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/27/2003 7:59:20 AM)

That's the WORST color combination ever!
The plane just flat disappears in most orientations against any sky!
.
Sawed the tail off, melted up some lead, made the elevons work.. Went to the field, and tried twice. The downthrust got to me.
First takeoff it tipped over quickly. 2nd I held up and it accelerated nicely, but at close to flying speed when I relaxed the elevator a tad, (I hate tip-stall takeoffs) it tipped over again.
Nothing broke.
So it's either take out the downthrust or put on the lower horizontal.
Dan and Jim saw me actually try... :)




Johng -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/27/2003 8:12:36 AM)

Hmm, downthrust??? Desn't that promote balloning when the power comes off - like on approach. I had a least 3 degrees of upthrust on mine, trying to get it to behave aerobatically.

Anyway, good luck with the tailless cap. THat'll shock some people. I don't guess it'll harrier very well though.




Ben Lanterman -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/27/2003 8:40:14 AM)

You are a brave person Paul.

Evans, the person that did the Scimitar series, had a tail off Cap. It looked just like yours. It apparently flew nicely. He did use the unique airfoil he uses but it should also work with a symmetrical airfoil. A flying wing shouldn't be too bad on lift off even with too much up (maybe). Possibly a little more up elevon?




Flypaper 2 -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/27/2003 7:54:09 PM)

Paul: Most flying wings need a CG around 20%of chord and About 1/8 in. of up elevon or reflex if you will. That should put it in the ballpark to make it fly. Give it a try. Also I would leave the engine with a 0 thrustline.




Tall Paul -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/27/2003 9:34:07 PM)

I moved the c.g. forward of course. It's about 15%,
And the ailerons are reflexed up.
Before trying to fly.
Last night I zeroed out the downthrust.
Today, who knows? :)
I have done this before...
Forward c.g. and reflex works well..
The Tailless Fazer is still waiting (after 4 years) to fly..




Ben Lanterman -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/27/2003 10:14:30 PM)

Paul - I absolutely am totally impressed by your daring. You would be at home in a Gee Bee rounding a pylon turn. Well done.




Tall Paul -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/27/2003 11:04:09 PM)

So far as I know, Don Incoll in Australia leads the field for brave and really wierd!
This is his tailless Ugly Stik.
The wierd part is the horizontal is discarded -in flght-, and it too has a radio, and becomes an r/c glider!




Tall Paul -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/27/2003 11:05:26 PM)

And from Germany, it's not only a biplane, it seperates in flight and combats itself! :)




Tall Paul -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/28/2003 5:39:59 AM)

Giving up on the tailless.... needs 2 of 3 things... More forward landing gear, or a tricycle setup, and inboard elevon span increased. Currently the elevons aren't in the prop blast. Accelerating to flying speed requires super care on the power..
Not gonna happen, so I guess plan 1) install the horizontal lower is next.




Tall Paul -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/28/2003 9:49:59 PM)

It just doesn't look "right"! :(




Ben Lanterman -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/28/2003 10:34:18 PM)

Advances in the state of the art are not always pretty. This airplane proves it. I have always thought the Cap looked awkward as it was but this is worse. Maybe that is why the tail ended up where it did in the first place.




peso -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/29/2003 4:29:17 PM)

Very ugly but how did it change the flight characteristics. You have done what I planned to do. But I was too lazy. I really look forward to a flight report. How does it snap. How does it land.
PO




Ben Lanterman -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/29/2003 5:27:18 PM)

You know, if Paul were a really mean type, knowing how much some of us are interested, he would .............

I hesitate to even mention it for fear of not finding out.




Tall Paul -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/29/2003 9:07:29 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by peso
Very ugly but how did it change the flight characteristics. You have done what I planned to do. But I was too lazy. I really look forward to a flight report. How does it snap. How does it land.
PO
[/QUOTE]
.
Dunno yet.
The car is in the shop gettting a new radiator. Maybe this afternoon, maybe tomorrow....




Tall Paul -> rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (8/31/2003 7:16:09 AM)

Flew it today.
Takeoff with the downthrust removed was hands-off, with the previous elevator trim.
The lowered horizontal was at zero instead of -1 also.
Trimmed for level flight, the snaps from level flight didn't happen.
Nor would it snap from a loop..
This with the "safe" low-rate of about 10° of travel (36%). High rate at 69% snapped..
Wings level 360s were easy in both directions. They required a lot of opposite aileron with the normal horizontal position, and were difficult to do.
No snap with full rudder in level flight.
Some nose-down but not a serious amount.
Still a LOT of down elevator inverted.
And the "balloon" on final seems to have appeared. Couldn't get a decent approach.. on the 3rd try the receiver battery failed.
End of experiment.
Talking to a CAP flier, he says normally the elevator travel is very little, as I found. For the 3D stuff, 45° or more is needed. Anything in between just doesn't work.
It's going to the landfill.




Tipover -> RE: rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (9/9/2003 8:44:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tall Paul

It just doesn't look "right"! :(

Looks like the pilot had a splitting headache that day....

Kevin




Tall Paul -> RE: rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts (9/10/2003 5:11:12 AM)

He was of two minds. :)




Page: [1] 2   next >   >>  

Valid CSS!




SITE MAP!   : :   FORUM RULES

© 2001 - 2007 24-7 RC, LLC, all rights reserved.
0.359375