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rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts - 8/21/2003 12:29:21 AM   
Ben Lanterman



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I was out flying today.

Since retirement, and since my wife loves me, that happens more often now than when I worked. Since 5 bypass surgery and a valve replacement it is important that I always have someone with me. She is by far the prettiest of the folks that I know. Off the track though.

I flew the Cap and a QuickFly III (KwikFli, QickFly, QuickFli, etc). Most of the aero moments in pitch, roll, and yaw are close enough to each other that they don't really matter. The horizontal tail height relative to the wing is within a few percent of wing mac of each other.

The main difference is that at least 35-40 percent of the rudder area on the Cap is below the location of the horizontal tail, along with a lot of fuselage area while on the QuickFly maybe 5-10 percent of the rudder area is below the horizontal tail along with less fuselage area.

The Quick fly has very little pitch response when in level flight and the rudder is deflected. In knife edge it seems to need a little up elevator but not much. Without rudder the deviation toward the belly of the airplane is small.

The Cap has a lot of pitch response nose down when the rudder is deflected. In knife edge it seems to need a lot of up elevator, a lot. Without rudder the deviation toward the belly of the airplane is a lot - big.

The conclusion is that the pitch response as a result of rudder deflection is a function of where the horizontal tail is located vertically along the vertical tail and rudder.

It has to be a function of pressure differential across the horizontal tail - after all the way all aerodynamic surfaces work (including the control surfaces) is by pressure differential. If you look at the two configurations from the rear and put in pressures before and after rudder deflection (just relative pressures will do) it works out fairly well.

Since in level flight the horizontal tail on these kinds of force and moment setups has an upload on the horizontal tail that is proportional to the wing lift (both are always the same angle of attack modified by downwash) you would think that an airplane that is rolled 90 degrees should not pitch at all. No downwash, wing and tail at the same angle of attack - the resultant is probably zero.

The airplane that pitches the least in knife edge is the one that is the most pure aerodynamically in all axes.

Granted the QuickFly rudder location with respect to the airplane roll axis will give a roll opposite the direction of deflection but this is probably less objectional than the rudder-pitch coupling.

One conclusion is that the old Quick Fly is better than the Cap in this respect. Something that on first glance I wouldn't have believed.


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rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts - 8/21/2003 1:12:58 AM   
peso


 

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Interesting reading. I have a Cap but my Kvick-Fly the original one died 15 years ago so unfortunately I canīt repeat the tests.

But there are other differences between the two planes. As far as I remember there was no balooning problem when landing the Kvick-Fly. This canīt be said about the Cap which is awfull in this repect. There are theories about the reason for this but I have not seen any verifications yet. It is pity that noone has modifed a Cap. First thing would be to move the stabilizer downwards an inch or two. The other thing would be to move it backwards. I bet that it would be as easy to land as an Extra (or a Kvick-Fly) if this was done. And the the pitch coupling would decrease.
/PO

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rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts - 8/21/2003 1:37:05 AM   
Tall Paul



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I've been flying these... looking for the pitch-up in flair, and the pitch-down with rudder.
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/aerostuff/4FunFlies-01.jpg
None of them pitch up in flair.
The scalish CAP does pitch down with rudder, and requires a lot of up-elevator mix in KE flight. It requires a LOT of down-elevator inverted.
The Ultimate will do a snap-roll rudder only! KE is towards the belly.
Lots of down-elevator inverted.
The Top Cap is the sweetest flier I have! It makes 3D too simple... No observed problems in KE due to rudder.
Very little down elevator inverted.
The bottom plane is a SIG Fazer, with "CAP" modifications to the tail. Another sweet flier, but somewhat less than the Top Cap. KE pitches lightly to the canopy.
No down elevator, inverted.

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Yep - 8/21/2003 3:28:00 AM   
Mike James



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I agree that stab/elevator placement is a big part of the nose-pitching issue. Last year, I did my own little science experiment with an old Ultra Sport .40

Moving the stab down to the thrust line nearly eliminated the pitching with rudder application. (I also rebuilt the vertical fin/rudder to include a vertical (90 degree) hinge line.)

The article is at http://www.nextcraft.com/us40bash.html

Results proved the theory.

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rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts - 8/22/2003 6:36:06 AM   
Johng



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Yep, when I first flew my CAP, I could not believe the amount of coupling from the rudder. I had the low rate elevator set to where it had just enough power to stall the plane. So, fly up to the stall and nail full rudder - and get a diving turn

I literally could not snap the plane (intentionally) on low rates with use of a lot of rudder. I added a multi-point mix to neutralize pitch change with rudder and soon after noticed the adverse roll-coupling with rudder. How can they design a plane that fights with itself so much??

Shortly after that it died of engine failure on a steep takeoff.

It had great pitch authority in 3D and rudder power to pull vertical out of knife edge. But all that coupling has me wondering how someone could strap themselves into the FS version of this plane.

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rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts - 8/22/2003 7:41:47 AM   
Tall Paul



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There's a full-scale CAP site which praises the low-speed handling of the 232!
The models sure don't inspire confidence!
My scale Ultimate (before it crashed and was repaired) was capable of a 540 degree "Stall turn" and come out pointed straight down.
Now it rolls so badly it's inverted at the 180° point, with only the rudder.

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rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts - 8/27/2003 4:08:51 AM   
Tall Paul



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Last week I flew the Stickit, Top Cap, Fazer and Somethin' Extra to get a feel for what does what after flying the CAP.
Today took the CAP out again, and it's so poor it almost went directly to the landfill right across the road from the flying field.
Lo-rate elevator is less than 10°, yet it snaps from level flight. Accelerated manuvers are almost unpredicable as to when/if it will recover. And this with the c.g. moved forward.
Gonna saw the horizontal off.
and then:
1) build a new horizontal installed close to the centerline of the wing instead of 5 inches above..
or.
2) move the c.g. even more forward, make the ailerons into elevons...

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rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts - 8/27/2003 5:46:55 AM   
Ben Lanterman



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I am really looking forward to your results. I was at a typical pattern contest last weekend, boring to watch but airplanes sure fly nicely. Wings and tail were all aligned and tails were low compared to a Cap. Here is a photo of a Cap full scale. That is quite a gap.

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Ben Lanterman

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rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts - 8/27/2003 7:59:20 AM   
Tall Paul



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That's the WORST color combination ever!
The plane just flat disappears in most orientations against any sky!
.
Sawed the tail off, melted up some lead, made the elevons work.. Went to the field, and tried twice. The downthrust got to me.
First takeoff it tipped over quickly. 2nd I held up and it accelerated nicely, but at close to flying speed when I relaxed the elevator a tad, (I hate tip-stall takeoffs) it tipped over again.
Nothing broke.
So it's either take out the downthrust or put on the lower horizontal.
Dan and Jim saw me actually try...

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rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts - 8/27/2003 8:12:36 AM   
Johng



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Hmm, downthrust??? Desn't that promote balloning when the power comes off - like on approach. I had a least 3 degrees of upthrust on mine, trying to get it to behave aerobatically.

Anyway, good luck with the tailless cap. THat'll shock some people. I don't guess it'll harrier very well though.

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rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts - 8/27/2003 8:40:14 AM   
Ben Lanterman



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You are a brave person Paul.

Evans, the person that did the Scimitar series, had a tail off Cap. It looked just like yours. It apparently flew nicely. He did use the unique airfoil he uses but it should also work with a symmetrical airfoil. A flying wing shouldn't be too bad on lift off even with too much up (maybe). Possibly a little more up elevon?


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Ben Lanterman

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rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts - 8/27/2003 7:54:09 PM   
Flypaper 2



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Paul: Most flying wings need a CG around 20%of chord and About 1/8 in. of up elevon or reflex if you will. That should put it in the ballpark to make it fly. Give it a try. Also I would leave the engine with a 0 thrustline.

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rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts - 8/27/2003 9:34:07 PM   
Tall Paul



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I moved the c.g. forward of course. It's about 15%,
And the ailerons are reflexed up.
Before trying to fly.
Last night I zeroed out the downthrust.
Today, who knows?
I have done this before...
Forward c.g. and reflex works well..
The Tailless Fazer is still waiting (after 4 years) to fly..

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rudder-pitch coupling - flight test - thoughts - 8/27/2003 10:14:30 PM   
Ben Lanterman