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    RE: mvvs 1.60 gasser carb #'s - 9/19/2006 10:43:15 PM   
    LUDS96



    Posts: 412
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    Tuned Pipe Theory and Practice
    Prestwich Model Boats
    Back to Main Page BACK TO FREE TECHNICAL STUFF

    Tuned Pipe Theory Part1


    How Two-Stroke Expansion Chambers Work.
    You know that changing the exhaust pipe and pipe length on your boat can have a marked effect on the engine's power characteristics, but do you by how much and why ?

    How Much. A two stroke 125cc engine with standard exhaust system can combust no more than 125cc of fuel air mix. A two stroke 125cc engine with good tuned exhaust system can combust approx 180cc of fuel air mix.

    Why. Simply put, it's because the two-stroke exhaust system, commonly referred to as an 'expansion chamber' uses pressure waves emanating from the combustion chamber to effectively supercharge your engine.
    In reality, expansion chambers are built to harness sound waves (created in the combustion process) to first suck the cylinder clean of spent gases--and in the process, drawing fresh air/gas mixture (known as 'charge') into the chamber itself--and then stuff all the charge back into the cylinder, filling it to greater pressures than could be achieved by simply venting the exhaust port into the open atmosphere. This phenomenon was first discovered in the 1950s by Walter Kaaden, who was working at the East German company MZ. Kaaden understood that there was power in the sound waves coming from the exhaust system, and opened up a whole new field in two-stroke theory and tuning.
    An engine's exhaust port can be thought of as a sound generator. Each time the piston uncovers the exhaust port , the pulse of exhaust gases rushing out the port creates a positive pressure wave which radiates from the exhaust port. The sound will be be the same frequency as the engine is turning, that is, an engine turning at 24,000 rpms generates an exhaust sound at 24,000 rpms or 399 cycles a second--hence, an expansion chamber's total length is decided by the rpm the engine will reach, not displacement.
    Of course those waves don't radiate in all directions since there's a pipe attached to the port. Early two strokes had straight pipes, a simple length of tube attached to the exhaust port. This created a single "negative" wave that helped suck spent exhaust gases out of the cylinder. And since sound waves that start at the end of the pipe travel to the other end at the speed of sound, there was only a small rpm range where the negative wave's return would reach the exhaust port at a useful time: At too low of an rpm, the wave would return too soon, bouncing back out the port. And at too high of an rpm, the piston would have traveled up the cylinder far enough to close the exhaust port, again doing no good.
    Indeed, the only advantage to this crude pipe system was that it was easy to tune: You simply started with a long pipe and started cutting it off until the motor ran best at the engine speed you wanted.
    So after analyzing this cut-off straight-pipe exhaust system, tuners realized that pressure waves could be created to help pull spent gases out of the cylinder. Following this, The tuners realised that these pressure waves could be utilised still further by using a divergent cone to increase the strength of the negative wave and then that a convergent cone added to this would increase power still further as explained next....

    The exhaust opens on the down stroke and a pressure wave emanates from the exhaust port into the header pipe. This pressure wave travels through the exhaust gases that are in the pipe at the speed of sound.. It’s the pressure wave that travels at this speed, not the exhaust gases themselves. (Imagine a stream and you throw in a rock. The waves from that rock will travel down the stream faster than the speed of the water.) Anyway, the wave reaches the front divergent cone and a weak negative wave (negative pressure or ‘suck‘) (laws of physics) is sent back to the exhaust port which reaches the exhaust port while the transfers are open helping to remove exhaust gases from the cylinder which in turn helps fresh mixture from the crankcase up through the transfers into the cylinder. ( some of which will enter the front part of the header)
    The length of the front cone and its distance from the cylinder (header length) determines the amount of time that the pressure reducing wave from the exhaust does it work in emptying the cylinder of exhaust gas and then assisting the fresh mixture up from the crankcase into the cylinder. If header is too short then the wave energy from the front cone is wasted because the negative wave ( the ‘suck’) arrives at the exhaust port while the cylinder pressure is still high after combustion. It should arrive there when the pressure in the cylinder is low but there are still exhaust gases that need to be extracted. If the header length is too long then the wave is arriving later than optimum and the exhaust gases are not fully removed from the cylinder. The front cone needs to be long enough to generate a wave to help the fresh mixture into the cylinder but it also needs to continue working long enough to allow some fresh mixture into the first part of the header. This is the mixture which will be forced back into the cylinder. If it is too short, then it does not allow mixture into the header. If its too long, then it reduces the length of the rear cone and that needs to be long enough to force all of the unburnt mixture in the header to be forced back into the cylinder. The pressure wave continues into the rear cone and immediately sends a positive pressure wave (laws of physics!) back down the tuned pipe towards the exhaust port forcing the unburnt fresh mixture back into the cylinder. The strength of the wave increases as the rear cone gets smaller and the length is made so that the returning pressure wave from its very end at the junction with the stinger coincides with the point of exhaust port closure. When this most critical length (start of stinger to exhaust port) is correct, then maximum power is achieved. If this critical length is too short then the returning wave forces hot gases back into the cylinder, dramatically increasing cylinder combustion temperatures. If this length is too long the maximum power will not be achieved because maximum supercharging or cylinder filling will not occur, although power in the corners will be better because the tuned length will coincide more with the reduced rpm in the corners.

    In conclusion we can see that the front cone length and distance from exhaust port is very important to achieve maximum cylinder filling and to pull some mixture into the header and the distance from piston to start of stinger is extremely important to get maximum filling ( supercharging) of the cylinder. . When we adjust the tuned pipe length on our engines we are moving several things at once, the start of front cone, the end of front cone, the start of rear-cone and the end of rear cone/start of stinger.

    TO BE CONCLUDED


    Tuned Pipe Theory COMPARING PIPES AND PIPE LENGTHS



    The tuned length L as shown in the diagram is the length that most people use as a comparison. This is OK as a comparison but the length that is most critical is TL. Many different pipes can be used on an engine but that tuned length TL will always remain the same within a few millimetres for a specific rpm (if all other factors remain constant, nitro content, oil content, air density, temperature etc). This applies to all two stroke model engines , petrol (gas) or Glow powered (nitro). We know this from many many bench and on the water tests conducted on many different engines. To elaborate: If you were running a tuned pipe at its optimised length (the length that is giving most power or speed) and that pipe had no flat in the centre section and you wanted to change to a pipe with a flat in the centre or belly section. You should measure TL on the old pipe and then set TL on the new pipe to the same length to give you a starting point for adjustment.

    TUNING THE EXHAUST SYSTEM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Pipe length is decided by rpm, exhaust timing and speed of sound within the exhaust system. The last part should remain almost the same whatever you do to the exhaust timing or rpm.
    1. If you increase the exhaust timing and rpm stays the same then pipe length is longer.
    2. If you increase the rpm but exhaust timing stays the same then the pipe length has to be shorter.

    If you can measure the rpm of your motor and exhaust timing, then you can use a simple calculation to show how much you need to change the pipe length when altering ex timing and rpm.
    Here are some some simple calculations for gas engines where the exhaust gas temperature is not affected by nitro content and varying fuel settings.
    ( For these calculations you can measure the pipe length between whatever points you want to, but the norm is from plug to widest part of cone.)

    Pipe length from manifold face to widest part of front cone. = L
    Exhaust timing = E
    Constant = K
    rpm =R
    If rpm is 15,000, exhaust timing is 175 and pipe length is 13 then....

    Firstly you work out the constant for your set up. So..

    K = R x L K = 15,000 x 13 = 1114
    ------------------ -----------------
    E 175

    In this example that would give a K number of 1114 and as I wrote before, K will remain the same whatever you do..
    If you want the engine to rev at 16,000, the equation changes to ..

    L= E x K therefore L = 175 x 1114 = 12.18
    ------------- ---------------
    R 16,000

    This would make the new pipe length 12.18" or 309mm.

    If you wanted to increase Exhaust timing to 180 and run at 17000 then the length L would be 11.79" or 302mm.



    STINGERS Stinger length should be separated from stinger diameter because although they are linked, in practice you would need to make a big change in stinger length to affect the backpressure. Stinger diameter is crucial to the pipes operating temperature and hence the power production. If the stinger is bigger than optimum them making it even bigger will have little effect but by sleeving it down then you will be able to find the size that gives best power. Normally a smaller stinger will improve top end power because the exhaust gas temperature will increase which will have the effect of a shorter pipe length. If you go too small on the stinger then power will suddenly start to drop in the corners and the motor will begin to overheat. To get the best power its usual to lengthen the header and make the stinger smaller to get the best overall performance. A bigger stinger will have the effect of spreading the power band but the engine will not make the same peak hp.
    Stinger length is important because its part of the pipe resonance. The wrong stinger length will reduce performance at the upper end of the rpm band. i.e. between peak torque and peak bhp.. There will be maybe one or two stinger lengths that will cut the rpm off at a certain level reducing the 'overrev' which gives the best top speed. There will be one stinger length which gives the best overall power and overrev. I find no way to calculate that stinger length, trial and error is the only way. Its not dependent upon engine size, just on the pipe design. For example, my best .21 pipe runs over 100 mm stinger but my best .90 runs around 60mm. One thing though, very short stingers up to 40mm long don't normally work and extremely long stingers of 150mm to 200 mm can work very well. Once the best stinger length is found, it does not seem to vary if the pipe length is altered.

    PS On stinger length, its only a few percent performance difference but every little helps!!
    The speed of sound within the exhaust system is dependent upon the EGT ( exhaust gas temperature). The higher the temperature the longer the pipe length must be for a given rpm.. EGT will vary with these factors..Stinger diameter( smaller stinger = higher EGT) , Fuel needle setting. (A leaner mixture will raise EGT.) Fuel mix. High oil content reduces EGT, High Nitro content also reduces EGT.. ( this is because a very rich mixture must be used with high nitro).


    A few helpful facts. The volume of a pipe is only really related to the displacement of the engine because the various diameters of the pipe ( header, belly and stinger) are a function of exhaust port area, and if an engine has a bigger displacement, it usually has a bigger exhaust port area. It's often said that a bigger volume pipe is less peaky or it has a broader spread of power. This is not actually so. The volume takes care of itself when the pipe is calculated. The important things are firstly (and most importantly) the length from piston face to start of stinger and secondly header length, cone lengths, belly length, and then header diameter, belly diameter and stinger diameter. Normally a good pipe will have a belly cross sectional area of about 10 times the exhaust port area with a stinger diameter of about 0.5 to 0.6 of the exhaust port area and the header around 1.2 times exhaust port area. By exhaust port I mean the actual port in the liner not the port where the exhaust manifold bolts on. If we take 2 pipes with the same cone lengths and total tuned length then the pipe with the largest volume will will require a smaller stinger diameter to maintain the same EGT (exhaust gas temperature) within the pipe.

    Dave Marles. November 2004

    (in reply to dick Hanson)
           Post #: 1251

    RE: mvvs 1.60 gasser carb #'s - 9/19/2006 10:59:35 PM   
    dick Hanson



    Posts: 10035
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    From: slc, UT, USA
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    Yes - all nice BASIC information - note the "cut n try" disclaimer
    This info is fine for getting a peak power -but still cut n try
    also I saw no mention of what happens with temperature changes!!! very important as the pressure changes with the temp
    woops !!did I say pressure ? where is the data on pressure????????? How much?
    to sum up-- the info in this write up is basic stuff - the theory is important but unless you have made a bunch of systems for different applications peak and broad band - you are still in the early larnin stages.
    To sum up-- once you have studied the theory -it's like learning to play a violin -- unles you actually have experience playing the violin -the theory -is -just theory -- the actual experiences of setting up of pipes -- can prove to be quite different.

    < Message edited by dick Hanson -- 9/19/2006 11:51:14 PM >


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    (in reply to LUDS96)
           Post #: 1252

    RE: mvvs 1.60 gasser carb #'s - 9/20/2006 3:32:22 PM   
    Charley


     

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    There's some good stuff in there. There are also some errors. I'll point out a couple. First, that assertion that fresh mixture is stuffed back into the combustion chamber by the returning pressure wave is bunk. For that to happen, the flow in the pipe would have to be reversed for a time. That doesn't happen. What happens is that the returning pressure wave prevents the new mixture from flowing out of the open exhaust port. That's what Dick meant when he wrote earlier in the thread that the pressure wave acted like closing a valve at the exhaust port. It's the inertia of the incoming mixture that packs the cylinder.

    Second error is the assertion that the pressure waves travel at the speed of sound. Not true. The speed of the pressure wave is a variable and is proportional the the pressure in the pipe. You can calculate the wave velocity by taking a pipe setup that works, plug in the variables and solve for the wave speed. I did it once in order to come up with a ballpark calculation for pipe length and it worked OK.

    As I said before, it's best to find a textbook at your college library and get the straight skinny.

    CR


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    (in reply to LUDS96)
           Post #: 1253

    RE: mvvs 1.60 gasser carb #'s - 9/20/2006 4:58:08 PM   
    dick Hanson



    Posts: 10035
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    From: slc, UT, USA
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    Then -if you are serious --actually try to do a tuned setup and see how well it works for your purposes
    Most first attempts I have seen (and done ) were -- not perfect--------------
    Experience is worth a library of theories.
    Tuned pipe charts remind me of airfoil charts; They are all just charts - detailing a specific set of conditions. change ANY part of the input info and the charts reshape like a ****ed balloon

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    (in reply to Charley)
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    RE: mvvs 1.60 gasser carb #'s - 9/21/2006 6:14:07 AM   
    LUDS96



    Posts: 412
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    From: East Haven, CT, USA
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    From OS Max website
    What are tuned pipes and how do they work?
    Tuned Pipes

    A Tuned Pipe is something that mystifies many modelers. They all know that the "top" flyers use tuned pipes on their airplanes, and that racing cars and boats use them to get top performance. What modelers don't know is what the pipe actually is and how it works. They just see that great big, odd-looking thing hanging on the engine, and are told that it gives a very noticeable increase in power.

    When the average modeler hangs a tuned pipe on his engine, he'll most likely get very little increase in the engine's power output, if at all. Why?

    The secret to a tuned pipe is in the word "tuned". It is like an organ pipe in the sense that it must be a specific length to be any good at all.

    A few pointers...

    There is no such thing as a pre-tuned, tuned-pipe assembly. Some manufacturers advertise that their pipes are just "bolt-on". All that means is that the manufacturer is offering a broadly tuned pipe system that should work in most cases. It's not a sure thing. For proper operation, every tuned-pipe installation must be tuned for the engine/propeller/fuel combination. Change prop or fuel, and the pipe will have to be re-tuned.

    If a pipe is not adjusted properly, it could result in the engine running too rich or too lean. If the pipe system is too short for the RPM the engine runs, it will make the engine run too lean, which will cause damage to the engine. If the pipe system is too long for the RPM the engine runs, the engine will trend rich, which will result in carbon buildup and wasted fuel.

    How it works:

    When a two-stroke engine runs, it lets out a burst of exhaust once every revolution of the engine. This burst of exhaust creates a high-pressure sound wave at the frequency of the engine's RPM. So if an engine is turning 13,000 RPM, the sound has a frequency of 13,000 cycles per minute, or 216 Hz, which is just below middle C on a piano keyboard. The high pressure of the sound wave is what our ears interpret as the loudness of the sound. Because it is a very high-pressure sound wave, we hear it as very loud. The result is that we can use the wave behavior of the exhaust to help the engine generate more power.

    A tuned pipe is typically has a constant-size header pipe, which connects to the pipe body. The pipe body is made of metal and has a diverging cone connected to a converging cone, which ends in a small tailpipe.

    The pipe works in the following manner: Each time the exhaust port opens, it expels a puff of high-pressure exhaust gas. This high-pressure pulse goes into the diverging cone of the pipe and slows down as it expands in the pipe. It also loses pressure and cools down. When it hits the converging pipe section, the sound wave is reflected back towards engine. The exhaust gases, themselves, continue out of the pipe, slower and cooler when they went in. The slowing and cooling of the exhaust gasses help muffle the noise.

    The sound wave, though, is what does the work. When the engine emits the exhaust gases in a high-pressure pulse, there is a low-pressure area immediately behind that high-pressure pulse. If the exhaust port of the engine stays open long enough, not only does that low-pressure area help suck out any remaining exhaust gases from inside the cylinder, but it also pulls some of the new, fresh fuel/air mixture into the cylinder, and even out into the manifold a bit.

    A sound wave consists of high and low-pressure pulses. The sound wave that was reflected back from the tuned pipe will eventually come back to the engine. That wave has a high-pressure area. If it hits the fresh fuel/air mixture at the right time, it will push it back into the engine just before the exhaust port closes. Because the pressure waves pulled some of the fuel/air mixture out of the engine, the fresh mixture that is pushed back in is above what the engine could do for itself, so the result is a kind of "supercharging" of the engine. The extra fuel/air mixture crammed into the engine is what gives it the extra power a tuned pipe is known for.

    For all of this to happen, the timing has to be exactly right. That means that the engine has to be turning at just the right RPM for the pipe to work. Or, conversely, the pipe must be the right size for all of this to happen. The engine must also be designed so that the intake and exhaust ports are cut correctly so that the engine will benefit from a tuned pipe.

    To repeat, a tuned pipe sets up an alternating series of high and low pressure just outside of the exhaust port of the engine. When the exhaust port opens, the expelled gases come out into a low-pressure area, which helps pull the gases out. Some of the fresh intake charge is also pulled out. As the exhaust port closes, a high-pressure wave comes down the header and pushes the fresh intake charge back into the engine. The engine gets a bit of supercharging.

    Tuned pipes only work within a relatively narrow RPM range. If the engine is running faster or slower than that range, the engine gets no benefit from having a pipe. Also, if the engine wasn't designed for pipe use, then there's also no benefit.

    Tuning a Pipe

    When a pipe is installed, it must be tuned to the engine. To begin, it must be left a bit long. This ensures that the pipe will be tuned correctly.

    The engine must be started, allowed to warm up, and then run at full-throttle with the mixture peaked. The RPM must be tached. Stop the engine. Shorten the pipe assembly by 1/4". Restart the engine, peak it, tach it, and stop it. There should have been a increase in the engine's RPM after the tuned pipe assembly was shortened.

    This procedure is done over and over. At some point, the RPM will not increase when the pipe is shortened. Back off 1/4" and clamp it all down. Fly the airplane (or drive the car or boat). Listen to it carefully. The pipe may need to be adjusted a bit to make sure the engine's running "on the pipe". There is a very distinctive change in the sound of the engine when it "comes onto the pipe".

    A tuned pipe cannot be tuned by running the engine and sliding the pipe in its silicon tube to shorten it. This "trombone" type of tuning will work for that run, but won't work once the engine has been stopped. The engine must be stopped between adjustments.

    Some modelers use the pipe to help the midrange, if it's too rich. You'll sacrifice top-end performance, though. Peak the needle for full throttle, then set the throttle to the midrange setting where you wish to run and tune the pipe as above. With some pipes, this may not work because a pipe that works for the full-throttle RPM and exhaust volume of your engine may have a too-large volume for the midrange of the engine, and the tuning effects may not work well.

    Types of Tuned Pipes

    There are a few variants of tuned pipes that are seen around. The most well-known is the double-cone tuned pipe. Properly-made, these pipes allow the engine to develop the highest power it can. They can be quite loud, though. They may not be as effective as a good "can" type muffler, as far as quieting is concerned.

    Next, is the "silenced" tuned pipe. These pipes have a diverging cone section that blends into a constant-diameter cylindrical section. The end of the cylinder is capped, with a small tailpipe coming out of its center. This type of tuned pipe will not give as much of a "supercharging" effect as the double-coned type, but it will be much more effective in quieting the exhaust noise. Sometimes silenced pipes are really a double-coned pipe with a large shield around them. The pipe's outlet is into the shielded area, and then let out the tailpipe. This type isn't used much because it's just too heavy.

    A third type of pipe is the "mini" tuned pipe. This type looks like a rather large version of a muffler, but it's attached to a long header pipe. Sometimes, these pipes look like regular tuned pipes that have been shortened a bit. Because they use the wave effects of the exhaust note, they are tuned exhaust systems, but not really true tuned pipes. They make exhaust flow from the engine more effective, which helps the power output. They don't really do much as far as the supercharging effect is concerned. It takes a full-sized double-coned pipe to be best there. The mini-pipes are used where space or weight is a serious concern.

    ---
    Finally, the main thing to remember about tuned pipes is that they aren't really suitable for most modelers' uses. They require quite a bit of work to get them properly installed and tuned. Once tuned, the modeler must keep using the same combination of fuel, engine, and propeller on that one model. Any change means that the tuning process must be done all over again. This not something for a novice modeler to attempt.

    Back to main FAQ/Contact Info page

    (in reply to Charley)
           Post #: 1255

    RE: mvvs 1.60 gasser carb #'s - 9/21/2006 1:02:33 PM   
    dick Hanson



    Posts: 10035
    Joined: 12/12/2001
    From: slc, UT, USA
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    lots of words - lots of half truths in that big writeup
    however--
    1- nothing gets shoved back up the pipe into the engine -that's an old wives tale. (Actually a poor description of the high pressure pulse which blocks outflow of incoming charge. Think about it -why in the he ll would you want heated burnt gasses back in the engine - cheeeze!

    2- Anything that increases power above natural aspiration power level is - a tuned device This is a self evident fact
    3-cutting and tuning is for max speed setups
    4-the pipe shape "needed" --really isn't the only shape which works - far from it.
    5- A good broad range ,power increasing tuned device , is now commonly available -run em-test em all the time -
    swap props -within reason - no changes requires
    The info from OSMax and the boat info -is simply not a desireble approach for broad throttle applications
    It is quite dated -but usable for speed tuning- that's it.

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    (in reply to LUDS96)
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    RE: mvvs 1.60 gasser carb #'s - 9/21/2006 5:00:03 PM   
    Charley


     

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    From: Kerrville, TX, USA
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: dick Hanson

    lots of words - lots of half truths in that big writeup
    however--
    1- nothing gets shoved back up the pipe into the engine -that's an old wives tale. (Actually a poor description of the high pressure pulse which blocks outflow of incoming charge. Think about it -why in the he ll would you want heated burnt gasses back in the engine - cheeeze!


    My wife has a Master's degree in math and went three years into a BS in Aero Engineering. I showed her some of the formulae from the college textbooks that I was looking at re: tuned exhausts. So she says: "Oh, I see, you have standing waves in the exhaust system and can take advantage of them."

    The problem with most modelers' understanding of how tuned pipes work is that they're relying on articles written by authors who have an imperfect understanding of the subject. Couple that with "how neat" the the idea of supercharging is and it's all over. It's just no use trying to convince those who have hooked up with this idea!

    Sin fin.

    CR


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    ccrobins@ktc.com

    (in reply to dick Hanson)
           Post #: 1257

    RE: mvvs 1.60 gasser carb #'s - 9/21/2006 9:12:10 PM   
    LUDS96



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    Mores law applies. If some is good more is better. I watched my RPM increase as I shortened the header. When it started to decrease I added the last 1/8 inch back in the pipe to get peak. Sounds good flys Great real fast nice sounding. Does not matter how it works just that it works! having Fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    (in reply to Charley)
           Post #: 1258

    RE: mvvs 1.60 gasser carb #'s - 9/22/2006 2:32:39 AM   
    Charley


     

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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LUDS96

    Mores law applies. If some is good more is better. I watched my RPM increase as I shortened the header. When it started to decrease I added the last 1/8 inch back in the pipe to get peak. Sounds good flys Great real fast nice sounding. Does not matter how it works just that it works! having Fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    Well, you should have added at least 3/8" back because it unloads that much in the air. Glad it's working for you.

    CR

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    Charley
    ccrobins@ktc.com

    (in reply to LUDS96)
           Post #: 1259

    RE: mvvs 1.60 gasser carb #'s - 9/23/2006 3:16:34 AM   
    FentonFlyer


     

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    Since were on the subject, my 26 seems to be very peaky. It's either on the pipe or it's off. With the the airframe that its on i'ts really not a big deal(CMP Giles 202)cuz I like to fly it fast and it sounds great in the air. But if I ever want to put it on a 3D type plane, the power will be unmanageble. I have the MVVS tuned pipe, but I think that my header may be too long or something. It's about 8" long.
    Thoughts from the Guru's?



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    (in reply to Charley)
           Post #: 1260

    RE: mvvs 1.60 gasser carb #'s - 9/23/2006 3:23:03 AM   
    LUDS96