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RE: Nuance - 12/23/2012 9:49 PM   
patternflyer1



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Status: offline 		I wonder if not moving the wing tube forward in the fuse has any differences on how mine flys vs yours Steve. I am guessing it would unless the wings are built different to put the tube in a different location in the wing to move it forward. I wonder if the yaw and roll difference you see could be because the wing is further back than mine.

C

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RE: Nuance - 12/23/2012 10:14 PM   
shannah


 

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It didn't feel tail heavy in the air (inverted 45's had the normal amount of down elev required), but I did move the CG forward a bit and it helped.

How far forward is your tube?

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RE: Nuance - 12/23/2012 10:37 PM   
shannah


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: patternflyer1

I wonder if not moving the wing tube forward in the fuse has any differences on how mine flys vs yours Steve. I am guessing it would unless the wings are built different to put the tube in a different location in the wing to move it forward. I wonder if the yaw and roll difference you see could be because the wing is further back than mine.

C


You know, after looking at the pics I think the wings are in the same spot. What do you think?

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RE: Nuance - 12/23/2012 11:01 PM   
patternflyer1



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Status: offline 		Tony and I looked at mine vs his and they definitely moved mine forward. Judging by where the trailing edge is vs the rear of the canopy.

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RE: Nuance - 12/23/2012 11:22 PM   
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Status: offline 		I installed the DTFS wings on mine early this week. The way they are built they move the root of the wing slightly forward of the stock wings. But with the difference in planform of the DTFS wings vs the stock wings the center of pressure is probably at the same point between the two.

I only have a couple of flights on mine so I haven't really decided what I like better. Hopefully the weather will improve here and I can start getting some more flights on them.

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RE: Nuance - 12/23/2012 11:36 PM   
shannah


 

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Status: online 		Tony is correct,

Here's a side by side pic of the wings.

The wing labeled "429" is the DTFS wing.

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RE: Nuance - 12/23/2012 11:51 PM   
patternflyer1



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Status: offline 		I wondered if they would do that. They are pretty smart!

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RE: Nuance - 12/26/2012 12:34 AM   
shannah


 

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Status: online 		I asked B.J. about the DTFS setup on the Nuance. Here are his thoughts on it:

- The DTFS wing was designed with the FAI class flier in mind and is not optimized for the standard AMA classes
- Due to the design characteristics of the wing, the expert fliers will see a lot of benefits, but it can be tricky in very strong cross wind which could be tough for the average flier.
- The DTFS wing should increase the stability in flight over the standard wing.
- The wing has less area and is thinner which results in the effective increase in vertical and horizontal tail volume, hence the increased stability without the use of wing fences
- The Center of Pressure and C/G are at the same position as the stock wing. This can give a feeling of being slightly nose heavy due to the design characteristics of the wing.
- In addition, since most fliers were moving the CG forward with the stock wing on the Nuance, this wing was designed to match a CG which is more forward to begin with.
- The wing root is moved slightly forward and the chord is longer than the stock wing so this has some effects similar to a canalizer
- Because of this, the neutral sensitivity of the rudder is increased. Rudder Expo and Elevator Expo should be increased even if CG is the same as the stock wing
- Since there is increased neutral sensitivity, you will definitely need the stab fences if you are running a contra drive
- With all these differences in setup you will definitely need a new model program in your TX

As for Kris' Nuance with the DTFS wings, he did some clever things. Everything is stock on the fuselage. However, since it had a pull pull rudder installation B.J. removed the rudder hatch and went with the Episode stab. The smaller stab area balances the effect of the forward rudder servo by reducing the pitch inertia.

So, with all this said, I just had to go try a few things on mine. The weather cooperated and I was able to get out for a few flights this afternoon. The weather was dead calm so I really had a chance to see how it flew.

I moved my batteries forward by over 1" to start with. I also increased expo on rudder and elevator as he recommended and I reduced the throw on all surfaces. My feeling previously was that it seemed a bit loose so I was hoping that B.J. was right and that these changes would help.

Well...... All I can say is that he was dead-nuts on. This thing flew really well. The loose feeling was gone. It tracked very well and it was a real joy to fly. I did notice that I need to make some thrust adjustments. I am not sure why, but I was seeing a pull to the left on long uplines that I had not noticed before. I re-read his design notes on the Nuance thread on his website and he says that in order to correct the pull to the left you must increase the up thrust. Yes, you heard that right. Increase the up thrust in order to eliminate a pull to the left on uplines. This is really interesting to me since I had previously increased right thrust and down thrust and noticed that I was getting a pull to the right when pulling level out of a downline. So I think I will reduce my right thrust, reduce my down thrust, and see how it tracks. Very interesting approach.

That all being said, I was really impressed with the way it flew today. So much so that I will probably take it out a few more times and get it dialed in before I go back to the Episode. I can get the Nuance DTFS dialed in very quickly which will let me take my time with the Episode.

I'll keep you posted as to how the thrust micro-changes go.

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RE: Nuance - 12/26/2012 10:28 PM   
woodie



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Status: offline 		Steve,

Thanks for all the tests and results. This combination of different wings/stabs and probably thrust arrangements are a great example of how different configurations can effect the performance of a pattern model. Very interesting.

Happy Holidays
Woodie

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RE: Nuance - 12/28/2012 8:43 AM   
MTK



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quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyF

I installed the DTFS wings on mine early this week. The way they are built they move the root of the wing slightly forward of the stock wings. But with the difference in planform of the DTFS wings vs the stock wings the center of pressure is probably at the same point between the two.

I only have a couple of flights on mine so I haven't really decided what I like better. Hopefully the weather will improve here and I can start getting some more flights on them.


The new wing should be able to start and most importantly, stop snaps and spins more crisply. But I suspect that's about all the benefit to be had. The AC position of the panels isn't changed enough to make much difference in turbulent cross wind.

One can do the same thing to snaps and spins with a conventional planform (easier build) but get additional benefits of better cross wind flight, by changing the ratio of root chord to tip chord to 3+. Very very few current set-ups exceed 2.5:1; most still are built at 2:1. I think it's better to have the MAC as close to the root chord as practical, minimizing the moment arm from fuse center to AC. A 10% reduction in the moment is within reach and results in easier flying in all conditions.


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RE: Nuance - 12/31/2012 8:03 AM   
papaone



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Nb : Which countries is it free shipping for Nuance ?
http://www.bondaero.co.uk/index.aspx?pageid=1085152&prodid=4969012
Claude

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RE: Nuance - 12/31/2012 1:55 PM   
bondtasha


 

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Sale on of a few airframes that are overspill to current storage facilities until gone, or new larger stock area available late January 2013. Sadly shipping only to Uk at that price where most customers collect or meet for handover to avoid courier damage . Shipping to France about 130 Euro or have met customers at the channel tunnel as an option for half the shipping cost and much safer to avoid courier damage.

Free Euro shipping on the combo deals which include the HYK inrunner which is very nice indeed.

http://www.bondaero.co.uk/Competition_Combo/p1085152_8388544.aspx

vbr

Chris

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RE: Nuance - 1/4/2013 10:37 AM   
crazyf3a



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< Message edited by crazyf3a -- 1/9/2013 8:10 AM >

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RE: Nuance - 1/5/2013 5:55 AM   
patternflyer1



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Status: offline 		Sorry to hear about your Nuance Andreas!

Chris

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RE: Nuance - 1/6/2013 10:28 PM  1 votes
F3A Unlimited



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Status: offline 		The new BJ Craft landing gear with less sweep is available now. It moves the wheels forward 2" and retains the same spread and prop clearance. It fits all 2M BJ Craft planes (Monolog, Prolog, Nuance, Episode) and comes with a set of wheels and wheel pants and new hardware. Easy bolt in replacement.
http://www.f3aunlimited.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8_70&products_id=738

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RE: Nuance - 1/14/2013 7:35 PM   
patternflyer1



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Status: offline 		Got some flying in with the new wings in no wind. I am flying it nose heavy ( haven't checked the cg, just feels pretty nose heavy) so not sure if it has. Something to do with it, but I do notice a bit of tracking issues in pulls and pushes. I don't remember that with the old wings. I am going to try stab fences. I do love how it snaps with these wings. Maybe the large canalyzer would also help.

Did anyone figure out how to mount it on the nuance yet?

Thx,

C

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RE: Nuance - 1/15/2013 2:32 PM   
mups53


 

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Status: offline 		 Hey C if you got a Episode canopy with the Top wing and you had a DTFS wing on it it would be an Episode. I think the stab fences are very important.
 I think the canopys are interchangable like the Nuance and the Prolog. Mike


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RE: Nuance - 1/15/2013 2:54 PM   
rcpattern



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Status: offline 		The Canopies are interchangeable, but the attachment method is different. One other difference is the rudder is MUCH taller on the Episode compared to the Nuance. I now have a set of DTFS wings to try and am going to convert the canopy attachment on my Nuance to match the Episode so I can do some playing over the next 6 weeks or so when the weather cooperates.

Arch

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RE: Nuance - 1/15/2013 3:09 PM   
mups53


 

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Status: offline 		 FWIW we stock all the hardware to change the way you mount the canopy's. Mike


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RE: Nuance - 1/15/2013 8:38 PM   
shannah


 

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Status: online 		The horizontal stab is much higher on the Episode than on the Nuance. So, I'm not sure how it will work out if you stick the canalizer on the Nuance. I may try taking it off of the Episode just for a comparison.

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RE: Nuance - 1/15/2013 8:47 PM   
mups53


 

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Status: offline 		 Steve the top wing has to be generating lift. Wouldn't you agree? If so losing the lift would make a difference in my opinion. Just asking. Mike


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RE: Nuance - 1/15/2013 10:41 PM   
patternflyer1



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Status: offline 		I agree Steve. Not sure what the effect would be with the difference in stab and rudder. I know stab fences will help. Going to try them first. I need to check the cg on it also. Feels nose heavy in flight. But not so much when I pick it up.

C

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RE: Nuance - 1/16/2013 2:25 PM   
mups53


 

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 Stab fence kits are now available.
 Mike


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RE: Nuance - 1/16/2013 3:44 PM   
patternflyer1



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Status: offline 		Cool.

I doubt these would fit mine as I think I got episode stabs. Really cool that you are carrying these Mike! Your inventory list is really awesome and always growing. You guys ( and gal) are doing a great job!

It's really cool to see a manufacturer providing stuff like this also.

C



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RE: Nuance - 1/16/2013 5:39 PM   
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Status: offline 		Question, why would you use the 90 degree one's over the 95 degree one's?

Bill

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