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RE: Nuance - 12/17/2012 2:49 PM   
ram_z



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From: petah tikva, ISRAEL
Status: offline 		http://www.acpsales.com/Sandwich-Panels.html

This where I buy this stuff...

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RE: Nuance - 12/17/2012 3:24 PM   
patternflyer1



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Status: offline 		I will double check that after work. thanks.

4595 is light. I agree. shocked me. several who picked if up noticed how light it was. I believe I used the f3aunlimited 5000 to weigh. could have been the f3au 4500s though.

chris

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RE: Nuance - 12/17/2012 3:30 PM   
patternflyer1



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Status: offline 		aerospace composites here in cali. they are 30 minutes from where I live and on my way to work. makes it convenient for me. the stuff I used is a stronger heavier honeycomb. I knew mounting the elevator servo on it, it would need to be stronger. I also added a carbon rod to make it not move. I have seen honeycomb flex cause trim issues.

chris

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RE: Nuance - 12/17/2012 5:57 PM   
mups53


 

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Status: offline 		 Is the material used to make the trays this??
http://www.acpsales.com/OnlineStore.php?cat=426
 Thanks, Mike


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RE: Nuance - 12/17/2012 6:23 PM   
Portlandflyer


 

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Status: offline 		Mike,

No that's the stuff in the center of the panel. This is the one you want that is glassed on both sides. 

http://www.acpsales.com/OnlineStore.php?cat=5084

Pat



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RE: Nuance - 12/17/2012 6:28 PM   
mups53


 

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Status: offline 		Oh I missed asking what I was thinking.
 Is the stuff I posted the material for making the panels at home?
 I want to get a vacuum bagging system on do it myself. Thanks, Pat.
  Mike


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RE: Nuance - 12/17/2012 6:37 PM   
ram_z



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quote:

ORIGINAL: mups53

 Is the material used to make the trays this??
http://www.acpsales.com/OnlineStore.php?cat=426
 Thanks, Mike


http://www.acpsales.com/OnlineStore.php?cat=5084

This is the one I use in my Nuance and will use also in the next project, the Episode.

I hope it helps.

Ram

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RE: Nuance - 12/17/2012 6:41 PM   
Portlandflyer


 

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Status: offline 		 Mike,

I thiught that might be what you were asking. And yes, it is the stuff to make your own. 

Pat



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RE: Nuance - 12/17/2012 6:44 PM   
ram_z



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quote:

ORIGINAL: patternflyer1

I will double check that after work. thanks.

4595 is light. I agree. shocked me. several who picked if up noticed how light it was. I believe I used the f3aunlimited 5000 to weigh. could have been the f3au 4500s though.

chris


My Nuance is 4650g with Rhino 4900, RS carbon prop, plastic spinner and I also changed the original landing gear to RS. (less swap)
I think that under this weight it is too light to handle strong wind.

Did you face any problems with this setup in strong wind?

Ram

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RE: Nuance - 12/17/2012 7:29 PM   
patternflyer1



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Status: offline 		with cg forward I havent noticed wind issues different than a heavier plane.

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RE: Nuance - 12/18/2012 5:13 AM   
MTK



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quote:

ORIGINAL: mups53

Oh I missed asking what I was thinking.
 Is the stuff I posted the material for making the panels at home?
 I want to get a vacuum bagging system on do it myself. Thanks, Pat.
  Mike

Mike, a suggestion...

For smaller jobs, a food saver vacuum packer works great. WalMart carries some systems at reasonable prices. How I make all of my firewalls and canopy bay floors, and soft mount facings

A single layer of 3K carbon cloth on each side of cross grained balsa for firewalls of gas engines as large as DLE55 is plenty strong enough but engine must be soft mounted....

A single layer of that carbon cloth  on each side of 1/8" Nomex honeycomb should be all you need for e stuff in the motor area. Remember to always back up the holes with a piece of carbon tubing to keep the laminate from crushing


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RE: Nuance - 12/18/2012 2:30 PM   
mwoytassek


 

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Matt is right these tools work very well and will teach about vacuum bagging small parts.


http://www.ziploc.com/Products/Pages/VacuumFreezerSystem.aspx


Mark

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RE: Nuance - 12/18/2012 2:42 PM   
Flyer88


 

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ORIGINAL: mwoytassek

Mike


Matt is right these tools work very well and will teach about vacuum bagging small parts.




You guys have been watching to much Martha Stewart !

Getting all crafty....


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RE: Nuance - 12/18/2012 2:53 PM   
MTK



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flyer88

quote:

ORIGINAL: mwoytassek

Mike


Matt is right these tools work very well and will teach about vacuum bagging small parts.




You guys have been watching to much Martha Stewart !

Getting all crafty....















Be veweey veweey quiet....You might learn somethin'

God forbid!!



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RE: Nuance - 12/18/2012 5:35 PM   
Bubblehead575


 

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Rookie here again

2 questions

Why are you using vacuum to laminate CF to Ply or sandwhich material, what is the benefit over just laying the cloth on the material and soaking the cloth

And how are you doing the vacuum bagging.  What is the process,  I have never done it

Bill



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RE: Nuance - 12/18/2012 6:05 PM   
robert


 

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Status: offline 		Ola Fremming has some great articles on making various bits and pieces for F3A planes, these 2 might be of use.

http://www.ofremmi.info/HowTo/HonecombPanels/how_to_make_honeycomb_panels.htm

http://www.ofremmi.info/HowTo/Vacuumbag/VacuumBag.htm

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RE: Nuance - 12/18/2012 6:07 PM   
MTK



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bubblehead575

Rookie here again

2 questions

Why are you using vacuum to laminate CF to Ply or sandwhich material, what is the benefit over just laying the cloth on the material and soaking the cloth

And how are you doing the vacuum bagging.  What is the process,  I have never done it

Bill




Vacuum does several things.

Primarily, it exposes the joint to reasonably high clamping force. Typical vacuum in this app is around 22" Hg or around 10 pounds per square inch clamping force.
Clamps with a very even force around the whole area of the part. Not that easy a thing to do with other methods
It increases the mass ratio of carbon (or other) to epoxy. For composites, it improves part stiffness and reduces weight (less epoxy is required)
It removes air bubbles from the epoxy which were placed there when mixing. In continuous vacuum systems (not the subject of these last few posts), vacuum removes off-gas given off by  the polymerization reaction and produces a stronger part. For some military apps, this is a must; again, it doesn't matter in our app

Rookie Bill, ask whatever questions you have in PM's please, or better yet, directly to email. I've highjacked this thread enough. Off to other things.....



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RE: Nuance - 12/18/2012 6:52 PM   
jgg215


 

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Status: offline 		Matt,
Correct me if I'm wrong but I can't see doing a honeycomb sheet using cloth, epoxy and the  open structure honeycomb and then hitting it with a vacuum. Mike was originally asking about making his own honeycomb sheets. I think most of the honeycomb laminate is done using pre-preg and no vacuum in which case it would better to buy those sheets pre-made.
John


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RE: Nuance - 12/18/2012 7:36 PM   
MTK



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ORIGINAL: jgg215

Matt,
Correct me if I'm wrong but I can't see doing a honeycomb sheet using cloth, epoxy and the  open structure honeycomb and then hitting it with a vacuum. Mike was originally asking about making his own honeycomb sheets. I think most of the honeycomb laminate is done using pre-preg and no vacuum in which case it would better to buy those sheets pre-made.
John


Of course you can. It's simple! There is one other element of course so please think about it and you will figure it out

I don't use prepreg; just too expensive for my tastes. And I don't have a fancy oven to follow the thermal protocol.

BTW- the last honeycomb composite panel stock I made, used 1/16" honeycomb stock. I used 2 layers of it sandwiching 1.4 oz cloth between the honeycomb and 2 oz cloth on each side of the honeycomb. Produced some very light canopy bay flooring and rudder servo mount. This is being used in my DLE55 powered Delta. I will post photos at some point in my Derivative thread....


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RE: Nuance - 12/18/2012 9:27 PM   
VerneK


 

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Status: offline 		I bought a sheet of the ACP glass/honeycomb and found it to be nearly twice as heavy as some glass/honeycomb I had left over from a Smaragd I built a few years back. I also have some glass/honeycomb I made myself and it's also about half the weight of the APC stuff made with pre-preg, though not as nice as the Smaragd stuff. My conclusion which may be inaccurate is that pre-preg is heavy since the honycomb should weigh the same.

Verne


quote:

ORIGINAL: jgg215

Matt,
Correct me if I'm wrong but I can't see doing a honeycomb sheet using cloth, epoxy and the  open structure honeycomb and then hitting it with a vacuum. Mike was originally asking about making his own honeycomb sheets. I think most of the honeycomb laminate is done using pre-preg and no vacuum in which case it would better to buy those sheets pre-made.
John




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RE: Nuance - 12/18/2012 10:19 PM   
Rune


 

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Status: offline 		hi
I have used 2 layers off 1,5mm balsa layed in "cross" with 50gr/m2 carbon on both sides all glued with thin epoxy cured between some thick mylar sheets we have at work and with some heavy weight on .
Stiff and pretty light , used this for servo trays and battery plates


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RE: Nuance - 12/18/2012 10:34 PM   
cmoulder


 

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quote:

I bought a sheet of the ACP glass/honeycomb and found it to be nearly twice as heavy as some glass/honeycomb I had left over from a Smaragd I built a few years back. I also have some glass/honeycomb I made myself and it's also about half the weight of the APC stuff made with pre-preg, though not as nice as the Smaragd stuff. My conclusion which may be inaccurate is that pre-preg is heavy since the honycomb should weigh the same.

Verne


Just curious, why use the glass honeycomb and not the CF, which is incredibly light?

I have seen this elsewhere but don't understand what benefits the glass sandwich offers that CF doesn't. (Besides CF being some nasty stuff to get in your lungs...)

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RE: Nuance - 12/19/2012 3:15 AM   
VerneK


 

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Status: offline 		I use the glass/honeycomb primarily for my rudder tray which also holds the Rx, Digiswitch, and Rx battery. My main concern on glass versus carbon is the antennas coming off the Rx. It might not matter, but I feel better keeping those away from carbon. I use carbon/nomex for my motor battery tray.

Verne






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RE: Nuance - 12/20/2012 2:36 PM   
mups53


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VerneK

I use the glass/honeycomb primarily for my rudder tray which also holds the Rx, Digiswitch, and Rx battery. My main concern on glass versus carbon is the antennas coming off the Rx. It might not matter, but I feel better keeping those away from carbon. I use carbon/nomex for my motor battery tray.

Verne










 What he said ditto x 2


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RE: Nuance - 12/23/2012 7:24 PM   
shannah


 

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Status: offline 		I had a chance to fly my DTFS wings on my Nuance. This is the stock Nuance that I have been flying and the only change I made was to install the DTFS wings. They mated right up to the Nuance with no modifications required. This makes it possible to swap back and forth from stock wing to the DTFS wing.

I saw Kris Fitzsimmons fly his Nuance with the DTFS wings at our D7 Championships a couple months ago. It looked very good in the air. His Nuance had a horizontal stab that looked more like the one on the Episode. There may have been some other alterations but I am not sure. On mine, I just stuck the wings on my stock Nuance and flew it.

I really need to get more flights on this to form an accurate opinion but my first impressions are as follows:

Pros
- Snaps: Wow. Very crisp and fast
- Spins: Great and very pretty. Easy to nail them.
- Knife Edge maneuvers: Seemed easier to fly than with the stock wings. I found that I was doing less aileron correction through the KE loops.
- Rolling Circles: Seemed easier to fly than the stock wings. I thought it flat turned better and held altitude more consistently.
- Looks good in the air

Cons
- Seems more sensitive in Yaw. Mind you, I don't use stab fences on my Nuance
- I don't think it rolls as nicely as the standard wing. That could just be me feeding in too much rudder, but it didn't have the same feeling
- I think I will have to move the CG forward on this and try flying it some more, but it felt a bit "loose". I will reduce my control throws as well and adjust expos. It will definitely be set up as a different "model" on my transmitter.

If I were forced to make a final determination right now, which I am not ready to do, I would fly the stock wings in P13 and pop the DTFS wings on for F13. It was obvious to me that the DTFS wings were much better at F13 than the standard wings.

I probably won't get a chance to fly them for a while since I am trying to get the Episode dialed in. So, stay tuned and I'll post more soon.

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