Hooben Elefant Build
11-24-2011, 11:58 PM
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Hooben Elefant Build
Hi all,
It's been a while since I last posted so I thought it was high time I jump back into the fray. My last project was a doozie as I did a tremendous amount of rework, scratchbuilding and adding a lot of different texture to my "cobbled together late war Tamiya KT" that was nearly 2 years in the making and more money than I care to recall
So I thought it would be nice to step away from the AMS (Advanced Modeler's Syndrome - where you can't leave anything box stock, and you want everything corrected or super detailed) for a little while. So I decided my next RC tank project would be straight out of the box as a change of pace. Plus I really wanted to see what new comer Hooben brings to the table on their own, without adding extra goodies, scratch built or after market add-ons. So a box stock (ok maybe a few extras) Hooben Elefant Jagdpanzer is on the bench.
I searched this forum to see if anyone else had done a build thread on one of these as I really didnt want to duplicate their efforts plus I wanted to see, what if anything I could gleen from territories already forged by others. But my search came back empty, so I thought I would share. My plan is to write this as a kit review as well as a build thread, so that others will get a better understanding of what they are getting should they choose to buy this kit.
Those of you who have seen my build threads before know I like to let pictures do a lot of the talking , so I'll shut up and get to building and snapping photos, and who knows maybe, just maybe we may learn something together and have a little fun in the process!
So sit back and enjoy,
Streetsquid
It's been a while since I last posted so I thought it was high time I jump back into the fray. My last project was a doozie as I did a tremendous amount of rework, scratchbuilding and adding a lot of different texture to my "cobbled together late war Tamiya KT" that was nearly 2 years in the making and more money than I care to recall
So I thought it would be nice to step away from the AMS (Advanced Modeler's Syndrome - where you can't leave anything box stock, and you want everything corrected or super detailed) for a little while. So I decided my next RC tank project would be straight out of the box as a change of pace. Plus I really wanted to see what new comer Hooben brings to the table on their own, without adding extra goodies, scratch built or after market add-ons. So a box stock (ok maybe a few extras) Hooben Elefant Jagdpanzer is on the bench.
I searched this forum to see if anyone else had done a build thread on one of these as I really didnt want to duplicate their efforts plus I wanted to see, what if anything I could gleen from territories already forged by others. But my search came back empty, so I thought I would share. My plan is to write this as a kit review as well as a build thread, so that others will get a better understanding of what they are getting should they choose to buy this kit.
Those of you who have seen my build threads before know I like to let pictures do a lot of the talking , so I'll shut up and get to building and snapping photos, and who knows maybe, just maybe we may learn something together and have a little fun in the process!
So sit back and enjoy,
Streetsquid
11-25-2011, 12:02 AM
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RE: Hooben Elefant Build
I know most of you probably know more than I do, but just in case anyone is interested, here's a little overview of this amazing machine, which was most definitely a devistating tank hunter.....
The Elefant was heavy tank destroyer of the German Wehrmacht used in small numbers in World War II. It was initially built in 1943 under the name Ferdinand, after its designer Ferdinand Porsche. In 1944, after modification of the existing vehicles, they were renamed Elefant. The official German designation was Panzerjäger Tiger (P) and the ordnance inventory designation was Sd. Kfz.184.
Ferdinands first saw combat in the Battle of Kursk, where eighty-nine of the original 91 units were committed. One account tells of a Ferdinand knocking out a Soviet T-34 at a range of over 3 miles with its 88mm Pak43/2 L/71, it was a devastating opponent against the Allies. Although effective at destroying Soviet tanks, they performed quite poorly in other respects. In its original configuration, the Ferdinand lacked a machine gun as secondary armament, making it vulnerable to attack by infantry. While this was a disadvantage, most combat losses were not from enemy fire, in fact most came from mine damage and mechanical failure.
In September 1943 all surviving Ferdinands were recalled to be modified based on battle experience gained in the Battle of Kursk. During October and November 1943, 48 of the 50 surviving vehicles were modified by addition of a ball-mounted MG 34 in the hull front (to improve anti-infantry ability), a commander's cupola (modified from the standard StuG III cupola) for improved vision and the application of Zimmerit paste. This and other minor armor changes increased the weight from 65 to 70 tons. By Hitler's orders on May 1, 1944,these improved vehicles were officially renamed Elefant.
Although the Elefant modifications improved the vehicles, some problems could never be fully fixed. In 1944 the Elefants served on the Italian front but were rendered rather ineffective, as their weight of nearly 70 tons did not allow them to use most Italian roads and bridges. Due to a permanent lack of spare parts most of the units were not destroyed in battle, but abandoned and blown up by their own crews. One company of Elefants saw action during the Soviets' January 1945 Vistula-Oder offensive in Poland, and the very last surviving vehicles were in combat at Zossen during the Battle of Berlin.
The Ferdinand/Elefant may have been the most successful tank destroyer employed during the war in kills per loss, reaching an average ratio of approximately 10:1. During the Battle of Kursk, the 653rd Heavy Tank Destroyer Battalion (German: schwere Panzerjäger-Abteilung, sPzJägAbt) claimed to have knocked out 320 enemy tanks, for the loss of 13 Ferdinands. This impressive average ratio was due to its extreme firepower and protection, which gave it an enormous advantage when used in head-on combat or a static defensive role. However, poor mobility and mechanical unreliability greatly diminished its operational capability.
Squid
The Elefant was heavy tank destroyer of the German Wehrmacht used in small numbers in World War II. It was initially built in 1943 under the name Ferdinand, after its designer Ferdinand Porsche. In 1944, after modification of the existing vehicles, they were renamed Elefant. The official German designation was Panzerjäger Tiger (P) and the ordnance inventory designation was Sd. Kfz.184.
Ferdinands first saw combat in the Battle of Kursk, where eighty-nine of the original 91 units were committed. One account tells of a Ferdinand knocking out a Soviet T-34 at a range of over 3 miles with its 88mm Pak43/2 L/71, it was a devastating opponent against the Allies. Although effective at destroying Soviet tanks, they performed quite poorly in other respects. In its original configuration, the Ferdinand lacked a machine gun as secondary armament, making it vulnerable to attack by infantry. While this was a disadvantage, most combat losses were not from enemy fire, in fact most came from mine damage and mechanical failure.
In September 1943 all surviving Ferdinands were recalled to be modified based on battle experience gained in the Battle of Kursk. During October and November 1943, 48 of the 50 surviving vehicles were modified by addition of a ball-mounted MG 34 in the hull front (to improve anti-infantry ability), a commander's cupola (modified from the standard StuG III cupola) for improved vision and the application of Zimmerit paste. This and other minor armor changes increased the weight from 65 to 70 tons. By Hitler's orders on May 1, 1944,these improved vehicles were officially renamed Elefant.
Although the Elefant modifications improved the vehicles, some problems could never be fully fixed. In 1944 the Elefants served on the Italian front but were rendered rather ineffective, as their weight of nearly 70 tons did not allow them to use most Italian roads and bridges. Due to a permanent lack of spare parts most of the units were not destroyed in battle, but abandoned and blown up by their own crews. One company of Elefants saw action during the Soviets' January 1945 Vistula-Oder offensive in Poland, and the very last surviving vehicles were in combat at Zossen during the Battle of Berlin.
The Ferdinand/Elefant may have been the most successful tank destroyer employed during the war in kills per loss, reaching an average ratio of approximately 10:1. During the Battle of Kursk, the 653rd Heavy Tank Destroyer Battalion (German: schwere Panzerjäger-Abteilung, sPzJägAbt) claimed to have knocked out 320 enemy tanks, for the loss of 13 Ferdinands. This impressive average ratio was due to its extreme firepower and protection, which gave it an enormous advantage when used in head-on combat or a static defensive role. However, poor mobility and mechanical unreliability greatly diminished its operational capability.
Squid
11-25-2011, 12:28 AM
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RE: Hooben Elefant Build
So I ordered my Elefant from Bob at ETO earlier this year, as part of the first 20 kits they got from China. The kit did not get shipped with instructions, but Bob was quick to e-mail them to me in PDF format, in fact I got them before the kit actually arrived. The instruction are clear and straight forward with exploded view drawings.
When the kit did arrive, the packaging was strangely reminiscent of another Japanese manufacturer. Hooben had copied Tamiya's "suitcase" style box right down to the velcro hinged front. The back of the box provides some very nice 4-view line drawings with just about every specification you could ask for, now if I only read Mandarin
Once you lift the flap you are greeted with some RC eye candy, ala-Tamiya, Hobben has also included a cellephane window to give you a peak at some of the metal goodies within.
Once I cracked open the box I found a nicley packaged kit with no apparent damage (unlike the recent posts on the Asiatam Elefant kit). This kit consists of multiple sprues of light grey plastic, which is soft and shows no sign of brittleness, the detail is crisp, with no flash and only minor mold parting lines. The zinc plated metal parts look cleanly molded as well. Gear boxes look to be pretty stout and have a combination of metal and nylon gears included. Bob was kind enough to include a turned aluminum barrel at no additonal charge.
My kit came with an "owners card" marking mine as the 115 to come off the line. let's see what Hooben had learned in kits 1 thru 114
Squid
When the kit did arrive, the packaging was strangely reminiscent of another Japanese manufacturer. Hooben had copied Tamiya's "suitcase" style box right down to the velcro hinged front. The back of the box provides some very nice 4-view line drawings with just about every specification you could ask for, now if I only read Mandarin
Once you lift the flap you are greeted with some RC eye candy, ala-Tamiya, Hobben has also included a cellephane window to give you a peak at some of the metal goodies within.
Once I cracked open the box I found a nicley packaged kit with no apparent damage (unlike the recent posts on the Asiatam Elefant kit). This kit consists of multiple sprues of light grey plastic, which is soft and shows no sign of brittleness, the detail is crisp, with no flash and only minor mold parting lines. The zinc plated metal parts look cleanly molded as well. Gear boxes look to be pretty stout and have a combination of metal and nylon gears included. Bob was kind enough to include a turned aluminum barrel at no additonal charge.
My kit came with an "owners card" marking mine as the 115 to come off the line. let's see what Hooben had learned in kits 1 thru 114
Squid
11-25-2011, 02:36 AM
#4
RE: Hooben Elefant Build
Come on!
MORE!! MORE!! MORE!!
(great, here I thought I got over not getting one of these) [
]
~ Jeff
MORE!! MORE!! MORE!!
(great, here I thought I got over not getting one of these) [
]~ Jeff
11-25-2011, 07:08 AM
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RE: Hooben Elefant Build
Alright Jeff here's a little more,
Right out of the gate the instructions have you start with the main gun, elevation and traverse, but I opted to go a little different direction. I decided to dive into what I believed was going to be a daunting task. Unlike Tamiya, Hooben has decided it would be best if each builder to assemble their own tracks. So I jumped to step 34 and tackled them first.
Everything you need for the tracks come in 3 packages, one contains track links with guide horns, the second has the spacer links sans the guide horns, and the third is a small zip-lock bag of pins. The tracks are molded in a hard black plastic, that appears to have the right shape and capture the "curved" feel of Elefant tracks, the outside surface has good detail, but the inside face of each link is marred by ejector pin marks.
Looks like Hooben did their homework here as each track link fully captures the pin across the entire width of the link. Anyone who owns a Tamiya KT understands the importance of this little design feature. On the KT, Tamiya decided for some unbeknownst reason to deviate from previous track designs, and leave the center guides "open" effectively locking the pin in only the outter two most guides. This creates a weak connection that is very prone to breaking when the tank is driven on anything but tile or smooth concrete. It is the bane of the KT and anyone who wants to battle with it will most assuredly have to change to metal tracks, which opens up a whole miriad of other issues that then need to be addressed.
But inital thoughts here are Hooben difinitely got it right on the first attempt. The tracks went together easily and quickly. Each side requires 55 of each type of link, and although they're not gnerled the pins fit quite snuggly into the holes. I built my track in small sub assemblies of 11 links each then set them aside, once I had enought to construct one entire side I joined the sub-assemblies together.
In case any of you were wondering, and not quick with the math, that equals a total of 440+ parts to assemble both sides of track needed for the beast. It took me about 90 minutes and was a lot less work than I was anticipating. Kudos to Hooben for a great design and engineerng, this build may prove to be quite enjoyable if this keeps up.
Squid
Right out of the gate the instructions have you start with the main gun, elevation and traverse, but I opted to go a little different direction. I decided to dive into what I believed was going to be a daunting task. Unlike Tamiya, Hooben has decided it would be best if each builder to assemble their own tracks. So I jumped to step 34 and tackled them first.
Everything you need for the tracks come in 3 packages, one contains track links with guide horns, the second has the spacer links sans the guide horns, and the third is a small zip-lock bag of pins. The tracks are molded in a hard black plastic, that appears to have the right shape and capture the "curved" feel of Elefant tracks, the outside surface has good detail, but the inside face of each link is marred by ejector pin marks.
Looks like Hooben did their homework here as each track link fully captures the pin across the entire width of the link. Anyone who owns a Tamiya KT understands the importance of this little design feature. On the KT, Tamiya decided for some unbeknownst reason to deviate from previous track designs, and leave the center guides "open" effectively locking the pin in only the outter two most guides. This creates a weak connection that is very prone to breaking when the tank is driven on anything but tile or smooth concrete. It is the bane of the KT and anyone who wants to battle with it will most assuredly have to change to metal tracks, which opens up a whole miriad of other issues that then need to be addressed.
But inital thoughts here are Hooben difinitely got it right on the first attempt. The tracks went together easily and quickly. Each side requires 55 of each type of link, and although they're not gnerled the pins fit quite snuggly into the holes. I built my track in small sub assemblies of 11 links each then set them aside, once I had enought to construct one entire side I joined the sub-assemblies together.
In case any of you were wondering, and not quick with the math, that equals a total of 440+ parts to assemble both sides of track needed for the beast. It took me about 90 minutes and was a lot less work than I was anticipating. Kudos to Hooben for a great design and engineerng, this build may prove to be quite enjoyable if this keeps up.
Squid
11-25-2011, 07:17 AM
#6
RE: Hooben Elefant Build
Thanks for the complements, Squid. When Hooben and I were first talking about the Elefant, before actual production, I told them any kits I buy MUST have the metal barrel included. It's a very low cost item, and I just ate the few bucks each.
I have started mine, but then the weather has stayed good, so we are still buried with work outside and inside the digs. Ergo, my Elefant is still sitting on the bench, suspension done but not installed. I did find one thing though. The bushings provided with the kit for the suspension pivot shaft where it enters the hull, I have replaced the bushings with sealed and flanged bearings. They seem to fit perfectly, and will of course not wear with the kind of use the beast will get in this rock garden called home.
I will be watching your build with interest. If you have any questions, do email.
I have started mine, but then the weather has stayed good, so we are still buried with work outside and inside the digs. Ergo, my Elefant is still sitting on the bench, suspension done but not installed. I did find one thing though. The bushings provided with the kit for the suspension pivot shaft where it enters the hull, I have replaced the bushings with sealed and flanged bearings. They seem to fit perfectly, and will of course not wear with the kind of use the beast will get in this rock garden called home.
I will be watching your build with interest. If you have any questions, do email.
11-25-2011, 07:41 AM
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RE: Hooben Elefant Build
Sevo,
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the single most frustrating part of this hobby is the lack of quality vendors. By quality I mean vendors who not only sell the products, but are knowledgeable about what they sell, give a rats _ss about their customers before, during, and after the sale and are available and willing to make things right when something does go awry.
I've seen countless vendors come and go by the way side, they burn bright for a short time and fizzle quickly and it's usually because of poor customer service. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, it's more than obvious you "get it". Myself, I would rather spend a higher dollar amount for the same exact item, with a reputable vendor, who stands behind what they sell and operates with professionalism and integrity, then I would lower price with your bargain basement fly by night vendor who chooses not to respond to e-mails and who will most likely be gone in 6 months.
There is a reason ETO is the premier provider to this hobby in the US, and that reason is simple - it's run by a man who has proven his integrity and treats his customers fairly and honestly. True you are not the only one who operates like that, (Phil at RC Tankwars, also comes to mind) but you are one of the few. IMHO without vendors like you this hobby would be a lot smaller, less successful and less accessible, and therefore a lot less enjoyable. You make a difference and desrve the recognition for what you contribute.
Oh wait maybe I should buy parts from Backyard Armor or RC Command ............point made!
Thanks Bob!
Squid
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the single most frustrating part of this hobby is the lack of quality vendors. By quality I mean vendors who not only sell the products, but are knowledgeable about what they sell, give a rats _ss about their customers before, during, and after the sale and are available and willing to make things right when something does go awry.
I've seen countless vendors come and go by the way side, they burn bright for a short time and fizzle quickly and it's usually because of poor customer service. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, it's more than obvious you "get it". Myself, I would rather spend a higher dollar amount for the same exact item, with a reputable vendor, who stands behind what they sell and operates with professionalism and integrity, then I would lower price with your bargain basement fly by night vendor who chooses not to respond to e-mails and who will most likely be gone in 6 months.
There is a reason ETO is the premier provider to this hobby in the US, and that reason is simple - it's run by a man who has proven his integrity and treats his customers fairly and honestly. True you are not the only one who operates like that, (Phil at RC Tankwars, also comes to mind) but you are one of the few. IMHO without vendors like you this hobby would be a lot smaller, less successful and less accessible, and therefore a lot less enjoyable. You make a difference and desrve the recognition for what you contribute.
Oh wait maybe I should buy parts from Backyard Armor or RC Command ............point made!
Thanks Bob!
Squid
11-25-2011, 08:18 AM
#8
RE: Hooben Elefant Build
Squid, now you're making me blush....LOL. VCO read your comments, patted me on the head, said 'well done'. Again, thank you for the compliments. Joey and I try very hard to get things done well. Joey is primarily to blame for the fast shipping, inventory control and stocking. The lad (at my age, trust me, he's a 'lad') works very hard and long, and the business reflects that. We work very well as a team, but without him, ETO would not be what it is today.
11-25-2011, 11:26 AM
#9
RE: Hooben Elefant Build
Squid,
I have to second everything you said about Bob, and Phil about being the premier vendors here in the US, I have purchased from both and gotten excellent service. I met Phil at Danville last April and he is a great guy.And I have communicated with Bobenough that I feel like Iknow him personally.So Kudos to both of them and Joey (who I met at Danville as well) for the excellent service and knowledge.
As far as your Elefant buid I will be watching with great interest as I too own one of these beasts, I will use your build as a guide when I get to mine, as I did with your Panther rebuild when I built my Panther. So keep it coming. You and Bob (Sevoblast) are my inspiration to do better in this hobby so you guys keep at it so the rest of us have something to shoot for.
Thanks Guys!
Steve
I have to second everything you said about Bob, and Phil about being the premier vendors here in the US, I have purchased from both and gotten excellent service. I met Phil at Danville last April and he is a great guy.And I have communicated with Bobenough that I feel like Iknow him personally.So Kudos to both of them and Joey (who I met at Danville as well) for the excellent service and knowledge.
As far as your Elefant buid I will be watching with great interest as I too own one of these beasts, I will use your build as a guide when I get to mine, as I did with your Panther rebuild when I built my Panther. So keep it coming. You and Bob (Sevoblast) are my inspiration to do better in this hobby so you guys keep at it so the rest of us have something to shoot for.
Thanks Guys!
Steve
11-25-2011, 11:50 AM
#10
RE: Hooben Elefant Build
Love the "stock" build idea..people might find out you don't need to spend a$1000 on a tank to have a nice piece of armour..I'll definately be keeping myeye on this one! 
11-25-2011, 12:19 PM
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RE: Hooben Elefant Build
Bob,
Thank you for confirming what I shared earlier. I give you praise for the the way you conduct yourself and run your business and you deflect most of it onto your much desereved employee/counterpart. And rightfully so, the young lad that you speak of (Yellowshaker for those of you who don't know) seems to be quite the asset and I feel bad that I did not mention him in my original post.
Joey is a great guy, and was very instrumental in getting me my Elefant. When they came in I was actually just leaving for vacation and he worked around my schedule to make sure it didnt arrive when I was out of town. Although we have never met face to face, we have gotten to know one another through this forum, PM's, e-mails and even the occasional phone conversation.
Not to mention I think he is probably one of the most talented builders on this forum. He's an active contributor to this forum and this hobby and always seem willing to learn and share, and without a doubt I think he is the most improved modeler on this site, he never ceases to amaze me with project after project. You and he do make a great team and it shows in the products and service you both provide!
Well done Joey, well done!
Squid
Thank you for confirming what I shared earlier. I give you praise for the the way you conduct yourself and run your business and you deflect most of it onto your much desereved employee/counterpart. And rightfully so, the young lad that you speak of (Yellowshaker for those of you who don't know) seems to be quite the asset and I feel bad that I did not mention him in my original post.
Joey is a great guy, and was very instrumental in getting me my Elefant. When they came in I was actually just leaving for vacation and he worked around my schedule to make sure it didnt arrive when I was out of town. Although we have never met face to face, we have gotten to know one another through this forum, PM's, e-mails and even the occasional phone conversation.
Not to mention I think he is probably one of the most talented builders on this forum. He's an active contributor to this forum and this hobby and always seem willing to learn and share, and without a doubt I think he is the most improved modeler on this site, he never ceases to amaze me with project after project. You and he do make a great team and it shows in the products and service you both provide!
Well done Joey, well done!
Squid
11-25-2011, 12:23 PM
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RE: Hooben Elefant Build
Shark (Steve),
Wow all I can say is thank you! I'm not sure I deserved all that, but I'm glad you found the Panther G rebuild useful or interesting (Gawd that seems soo long ago!). No pressure right? Hopefully this build will also prove somewhat useful and won't turn into a dud! (LOL)
More to follow!
Craig
Wow all I can say is thank you! I'm not sure I deserved all that, but I'm glad you found the Panther G rebuild useful or interesting (Gawd that seems soo long ago!). No pressure right? Hopefully this build will also prove somewhat useful and won't turn into a dud! (LOL)
More to follow!
Craig
11-25-2011, 12:37 PM
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RE: Hooben Elefant Build
Dirtybird69,
AMS is an affliction that usually strikes after many years of model building. Regardless of how "good" a kit is you simply can't leave well enough alone. Unfortunately I suffer from this, and I do mean that in a literal term, AMS gets bad enough that you often end up NOT finishing anything because of the cost and time involved, plus no project ever feels "complete".
I have a 1/35th scale helicopter kit I bought almost 10 years ago for about $35, and well over 3 times the cost of the kit in after-market accessories, plus that much again in books and research material. There are so many PE parts I just stopped building it. I have almost 70 hours already invested in detailing all of the electrical and plumbing for the turbine engine and it's only about an inch long. I have another 1/35th scale half track that has over 1000 pieces on it, and it's not done yet and when complete it will be less than 8 inches in length.
Building this Elefant stock is going to be a real challenge for me, but I promised myself I would do it. No afterarket metal or upgrades, I'm not adding bearings or beefing up the suspension and running gear, I'm not adding metal tracks or upgrading gear boxes. I'm going to build this as stock as I can using Tamiya Tiger I electronics, but I will be adding zimmerit as all Elefants left the retro fitting with it applied. And the only other thing I plan (room permitting) is I'm trying a new methos of putting both the IR emitter and the flash unit in the barrel.
I guess we'll see how sucessful I am at pulling this one off
Squid
AMS is an affliction that usually strikes after many years of model building. Regardless of how "good" a kit is you simply can't leave well enough alone. Unfortunately I suffer from this, and I do mean that in a literal term, AMS gets bad enough that you often end up NOT finishing anything because of the cost and time involved, plus no project ever feels "complete".
I have a 1/35th scale helicopter kit I bought almost 10 years ago for about $35, and well over 3 times the cost of the kit in after-market accessories, plus that much again in books and research material. There are so many PE parts I just stopped building it. I have almost 70 hours already invested in detailing all of the electrical and plumbing for the turbine engine and it's only about an inch long. I have another 1/35th scale half track that has over 1000 pieces on it, and it's not done yet and when complete it will be less than 8 inches in length.
Building this Elefant stock is going to be a real challenge for me, but I promised myself I would do it. No afterarket metal or upgrades, I'm not adding bearings or beefing up the suspension and running gear, I'm not adding metal tracks or upgrading gear boxes. I'm going to build this as stock as I can using Tamiya Tiger I electronics, but I will be adding zimmerit as all Elefants left the retro fitting with it applied. And the only other thing I plan (room permitting) is I'm trying a new methos of putting both the IR emitter and the flash unit in the barrel.
I guess we'll see how sucessful I am at pulling this one off
Squid
11-25-2011, 12:50 PM
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RE: Hooben Elefant Build
Alright,
let's get back to why you're all here and I started this thread to begin with........the Elefant build. After the tracks were assembled I went onto the drive sprockets, and interestingly enough on this tank destroyer there are 4 in total. The 2 rear ones actually drive the tank as they are connected to the gearbox via the final drive output shaft, but the drive sprockets on the front spin freely on and axle like the road wheels, but they are also used to set the adjustable tension on the tracks as the mounting point on the lower hull is a slot in which you can move the sprocket.
Tamiya does a good job of providing metal parts where strength and durability are critical (i.e. drive sprockets and suspension arms), HL and Matorro have also learned this and offer those parts as an "upgrade". But Hooben takes it to the next level. They provide stout metal parts in the critical areas but then combine or add-on plastic detail parts that give the finished piece a much more refined and delicate scale look without sacrificing strength. No where is this more noticeable than on the drive sprockets.
Hooben provides all the heavy use and moving mechanical parts in metal, and then has plsatic detail appliques that get superglued right to the metal parts. What you end up with looks great and looks like it will stand up to the toughest battefield conditons and rough driving.
Streetsquid
let's get back to why you're all here and I started this thread to begin with........the Elefant build. After the tracks were assembled I went onto the drive sprockets, and interestingly enough on this tank destroyer there are 4 in total. The 2 rear ones actually drive the tank as they are connected to the gearbox via the final drive output shaft, but the drive sprockets on the front spin freely on and axle like the road wheels, but they are also used to set the adjustable tension on the tracks as the mounting point on the lower hull is a slot in which you can move the sprocket.
Tamiya does a good job of providing metal parts where strength and durability are critical (i.e. drive sprockets and suspension arms), HL and Matorro have also learned this and offer those parts as an "upgrade". But Hooben takes it to the next level. They provide stout metal parts in the critical areas but then combine or add-on plastic detail parts that give the finished piece a much more refined and delicate scale look without sacrificing strength. No where is this more noticeable than on the drive sprockets.
Hooben provides all the heavy use and moving mechanical parts in metal, and then has plsatic detail appliques that get superglued right to the metal parts. What you end up with looks great and looks like it will stand up to the toughest battefield conditons and rough driving.
Streetsquid
11-25-2011, 02:55 PM
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RE: Hooben Elefant Build
Wow!
Ran into my first issue with the Hooben Elefant, and it's a pretty good one. Took a little though and testing to come up with a workable solution, but I got er dun!
As is typical with most RC tanks, Hooben has included brass collets that get inserted or sandwhiched between the two road wheels that make up each bogie. There is a resultant gap between the inner and outter road wheels that the guide horn on the track is designed to run in. All well and good and the design is fine, the problem comes in the engineering of it.
On the inside of each road wheel is a dropped shoulder creating a "cup" that the collet sits in. The problem is that the plastic "cup" has an ID of approximately 0.350 in Dia and the brass collet that is supposed to go into that cup has an OD of approximately 0.352. Now 0.002 (2 thousanths of on inch) may not sound like a lot, and it's not really, most human hair, depending on the color, is between 0.025 and 0.035 of an inch in diameter. The issue here comes down to the materials. I tried greasing the sidewall of the cup, I tried using a small vice to "squeeze the collet in with even pressure, I tried tapping the collet in with a small cobbler's hammer and nothing was working. I was seriously concerned with over stressing the plastic and fracturing it, or possibly scoring the ininside of the cup badly enough that the collet would not sit squarely which would have the potential to put the road wheels out of alingment and make then wobble. And none of those possibilities sounded appealing to me.
Then it hit me, back when I raced motorcycle, we would often have to change front wheel bearing and they were a press fit so you couldnt use a drift or anything else to drive the bearing in as you risked damaging the outter race, resulting in a useless or inoperable bearing So the solution back then was to freeze the bearing which would cause the metal to contract. Then using blow torch we would heat the bearing cup on the wheel hub, which would expand under the direct heat. The cold bearing would drop right into the expanded hub. Once each peice returned to ambient temprature the new bearing was tight as could be, as if it was "pressed fit" into place.
So I applied the same principle here. I froze the brass collets in my freezer, and then I had to heat each road wheel, and obviously a blow torch would not work in this application. So I simply submerged the road wheels in hot water (about 140F) in a pan on my stove top, for about 4-5 minutes. The bearing cup on each road wheel expanded while the frozen the brass collets had contracted. They didnt quite fall into to place but with some gentle tapping I got them all into place and they are square and tight with no resultant damage to the plastic cup or roadwheels.
Buying after market bearings may have been the way to go, but I'm making this Hooben model the way Hooben manufactured it, and I'm gonna make it work!
Squid
Ran into my first issue with the Hooben Elefant, and it's a pretty good one. Took a little though and testing to come up with a workable solution, but I got er dun!
As is typical with most RC tanks, Hooben has included brass collets that get inserted or sandwhiched between the two road wheels that make up each bogie. There is a resultant gap between the inner and outter road wheels that the guide horn on the track is designed to run in. All well and good and the design is fine, the problem comes in the engineering of it.
On the inside of each road wheel is a dropped shoulder creating a "cup" that the collet sits in. The problem is that the plastic "cup" has an ID of approximately 0.350 in Dia and the brass collet that is supposed to go into that cup has an OD of approximately 0.352. Now 0.002 (2 thousanths of on inch) may not sound like a lot, and it's not really, most human hair, depending on the color, is between 0.025 and 0.035 of an inch in diameter. The issue here comes down to the materials. I tried greasing the sidewall of the cup, I tried using a small vice to "squeeze the collet in with even pressure, I tried tapping the collet in with a small cobbler's hammer and nothing was working. I was seriously concerned with over stressing the plastic and fracturing it, or possibly scoring the ininside of the cup badly enough that the collet would not sit squarely which would have the potential to put the road wheels out of alingment and make then wobble. And none of those possibilities sounded appealing to me.
Then it hit me, back when I raced motorcycle, we would often have to change front wheel bearing and they were a press fit so you couldnt use a drift or anything else to drive the bearing in as you risked damaging the outter race, resulting in a useless or inoperable bearing So the solution back then was to freeze the bearing which would cause the metal to contract. Then using blow torch we would heat the bearing cup on the wheel hub, which would expand under the direct heat. The cold bearing would drop right into the expanded hub. Once each peice returned to ambient temprature the new bearing was tight as could be, as if it was "pressed fit" into place.
So I applied the same principle here. I froze the brass collets in my freezer, and then I had to heat each road wheel, and obviously a blow torch would not work in this application. So I simply submerged the road wheels in hot water (about 140F) in a pan on my stove top, for about 4-5 minutes. The bearing cup on each road wheel expanded while the frozen the brass collets had contracted. They didnt quite fall into to place but with some gentle tapping I got them all into place and they are square and tight with no resultant damage to the plastic cup or roadwheels.
Buying after market bearings may have been the way to go, but I'm making this Hooben model the way Hooben manufactured it, and I'm gonna make it work!
Squid
11-25-2011, 03:23 PM
#16
RE: Hooben Elefant Build
Squid, I just got home from work, and it was a tough day, but this post made me feel alot better. I am so happy to see you back here and building something. I was waiting patiently for the rest of the KT build, but I will now be wathcing the Hooben come to life! With my tiger 1 finished and 2 more projects on the bench, I really do not need this temptation right now. LOL
I truly appreciate all the kind words from all of you guys. It is nice to be appreciated. Sev and I try our very best to keep each and every tanker happy. My work schedule is quite hectic these days, but I do try to get orders out within a day or two if possible. When I got into this hobby, I knew nothing about armor and never even built a static kit beofre. My early work proved that....let's not tlak about that though. I have learned by being a pain in the ass to guys like Sev, Phil, yourself, NEAD memebers, and anyone else who would alklow me to pick their brains. I owe my new found talents to all of you great folks. I am still learning and will continue to do so. Thanks to all of you again and we will continue to make ETO a top shelf place to buy parts. I love this hobby!
One request, Squid. Can you please finish this thread with a painted Elephant?
I truly appreciate all the kind words from all of you guys. It is nice to be appreciated. Sev and I try our very best to keep each and every tanker happy. My work schedule is quite hectic these days, but I do try to get orders out within a day or two if possible. When I got into this hobby, I knew nothing about armor and never even built a static kit beofre. My early work proved that....let's not tlak about that though. I have learned by being a pain in the ass to guys like Sev, Phil, yourself, NEAD memebers, and anyone else who would alklow me to pick their brains. I owe my new found talents to all of you great folks. I am still learning and will continue to do so. Thanks to all of you again and we will continue to make ETO a top shelf place to buy parts. I love this hobby!
One request, Squid. Can you please finish this thread with a painted Elephant?
11-25-2011, 08:56 PM
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RE: Hooben Elefant Build
Ouch!
Yellow I hear you loud and clear, and I make this commitment to you now, I will follow through with the Elefant all the way to completion (paint and weathering) provided the interest and interaction on the thread warrants it. I've told you before the reason I write these threads is to hopefully benefit others in some way, either teaching something new or what not to do!
I did finish the KT (well almost) there is still more I want to do to it in terms of paint and weathering, but I just let the thread kind of peter out. Towards the end there didnt seem to be much interest in what I was doing and I was concerned with that from the onset of that project. In fact if you recall the opening post was asking if there was much interest in yet another Tamiya KT build as there had just been several completed.
In the end if just felt like no one was interested or benefitting from it, so I just focused on building it and not writing about it. I'll post some pics of the finished tank soon.
As far as my comments, you are more than welcome, you deserve every bit and I meant what I said. what I wrote about Bob in the earlier post applies to you as well. You have proven your integrity to me and the members of this forum and you are an integral part of this hobby, and many of us are indebited to you for it.
Thanks joe!
Craig
Yellow I hear you loud and clear, and I make this commitment to you now, I will follow through with the Elefant all the way to completion (paint and weathering) provided the interest and interaction on the thread warrants it. I've told you before the reason I write these threads is to hopefully benefit others in some way, either teaching something new or what not to do!
I did finish the KT (well almost) there is still more I want to do to it in terms of paint and weathering, but I just let the thread kind of peter out. Towards the end there didnt seem to be much interest in what I was doing and I was concerned with that from the onset of that project. In fact if you recall the opening post was asking if there was much interest in yet another Tamiya KT build as there had just been several completed.
In the end if just felt like no one was interested or benefitting from it, so I just focused on building it and not writing about it. I'll post some pics of the finished tank soon.
As far as my comments, you are more than welcome, you deserve every bit and I meant what I said. what I wrote about Bob in the earlier post applies to you as well. You have proven your integrity to me and the members of this forum and you are an integral part of this hobby, and many of us are indebited to you for it.
Thanks joe!
Craig
11-25-2011, 09:12 PM
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RE: Hooben Elefant Build
Uh oh!
The Hooben engineers just presented me with another issue that does not seem they thought through clearly and thoroughly. Assembling the suspension arms has revealed a HUGE problem.
The suspension is made up of 3 bogies per side, each bogie consisting of 2 road wheels. The suspension arms themselves are made up of about 9 peices, the two major parts that make up the body of the suspension arms are cast in metal, with a a variety of hardware and springs making them functional. Each wheel attaches differently and as of right now the way Hooben has designed the rear wheel to attach to the suspension there is no way to lock the axel in the suspension arm sleeve. So instead of the wheel rotating around a stationary axle, the axle itself is rotating inside it's sleeve.
I'll have to post some pictures, but right now I'm trying to come up with a solution and this one may take a bit. I've already tried the obvious and a few others..................................frustratin g!
Squid
The Hooben engineers just presented me with another issue that does not seem they thought through clearly and thoroughly. Assembling the suspension arms has revealed a HUGE problem.
The suspension is made up of 3 bogies per side, each bogie consisting of 2 road wheels. The suspension arms themselves are made up of about 9 peices, the two major parts that make up the body of the suspension arms are cast in metal, with a a variety of hardware and springs making them functional. Each wheel attaches differently and as of right now the way Hooben has designed the rear wheel to attach to the suspension there is no way to lock the axel in the suspension arm sleeve. So instead of the wheel rotating around a stationary axle, the axle itself is rotating inside it's sleeve.
I'll have to post some pictures, but right now I'm trying to come up with a solution and this one may take a bit. I've already tried the obvious and a few others..................................frustratin g!
Squid
11-25-2011, 10:22 PM
#19
RE: Hooben Elefant Build
Very clever solution to the wheel bushing problem, Squid. Thanks! Mine were a finger press fit, a STRONG finger press fit, but they went together. On the problem with the suspension system, mine are together but haven't installed them on the hull or actually tested them. Let me see if mine are the same way.
11-25-2011, 11:29 PM
#20
RE: Hooben Elefant Build
OK, Squid, actually two problems with the rear axles. I hadn't tightened up mine after assembly, but just did to check out your problem.
Problem #1, no big deal. On some of the axle bosses where the wheel bushing inside the wheel fits up against the suspension system, the boss needs to be filed a tad down so the wheel will rotate freely when you tighten down the screw in the end of the axle. Also thought that would solve your problem of the axle turning in the suspension housing, but then I'm a little fuzzy this cold AM. Should have known better.
After filing down the boss, it was then possible to tighten the axle shaft itself properly so the wheel would turn freely. Good deal there, as now the axle would fit to the inner end of the suspension arm and be a proper fit. And, lo and behold, it still turns in the arm. Solution? I'll drill and tap a hole in the top of the suspension arm and install a hex head grub screw, like is used in the Tamiya suspension arms for the KT, Tiger 1, Panther and JP etc. to attach the axle to the arm. A little time consuming, but worth it in the end. Here's a pic of the mod. I used a long grub screw just to show where it goes, and I angled it a tad off top center. In assembly, I'll use a shorter grub screw that won't stick out and grab the local flora and fauna in passing.
Problem is there is no shoulder on this axle, therefor while when fit properly you can tighten down the screw in the axle end for a proper wheel fit and rotation, there is nothing in the suspension area to actually lock in the axle itself. The grub screw deal should solve that problem well.
With some of these designs, the makers, Hooben and Tamiya, have not a clue how we use the tanks, how we combat, and how rough we are on the tanks. Generally they think we just go on Sunday drives with 'em. Wrong! Anyone who has seen this mud and rock garden we call home would understand the hard use they get.
Problem #1, no big deal. On some of the axle bosses where the wheel bushing inside the wheel fits up against the suspension system, the boss needs to be filed a tad down so the wheel will rotate freely when you tighten down the screw in the end of the axle. Also thought that would solve your problem of the axle turning in the suspension housing, but then I'm a little fuzzy this cold AM. Should have known better.
After filing down the boss, it was then possible to tighten the axle shaft itself properly so the wheel would turn freely. Good deal there, as now the axle would fit to the inner end of the suspension arm and be a proper fit. And, lo and behold, it still turns in the arm. Solution? I'll drill and tap a hole in the top of the suspension arm and install a hex head grub screw, like is used in the Tamiya suspension arms for the KT, Tiger 1, Panther and JP etc. to attach the axle to the arm. A little time consuming, but worth it in the end. Here's a pic of the mod. I used a long grub screw just to show where it goes, and I angled it a tad off top center. In assembly, I'll use a shorter grub screw that won't stick out and grab the local flora and fauna in passing.
Problem is there is no shoulder on this axle, therefor while when fit properly you can tighten down the screw in the axle end for a proper wheel fit and rotation, there is nothing in the suspension area to actually lock in the axle itself. The grub screw deal should solve that problem well.
With some of these designs, the makers, Hooben and Tamiya, have not a clue how we use the tanks, how we combat, and how rough we are on the tanks. Generally they think we just go on Sunday drives with 'em. Wrong! Anyone who has seen this mud and rock garden we call home would understand the hard use they get.
11-26-2011, 11:32 AM
#21
RE: Hooben Elefant Build
Although you are doing a "stock build" I personally think that metal tracks would be the one hop-upthat most EVERYBODY would do. Plus maybe adding a set could clarify some issues...Be nice to know once and for all if metaltracks are actually available, and if so do they actuallyfit and hold up to the abuse?..
11-26-2011, 07:18 PM
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RE: Hooben Elefant Build
Sevo,
Thanks for the kind comments on rectifying the roadwheel hub/collet issue. The idea kind hit me in the middle of the forehead like a brick and I had one those "Aha moments".
Thanks also for sharing your thoughts and ideas on the other issue, I too had considered the standard Tamiya approach to securing the axles, but obviously my stash of harware is smaller than yours, I didnt have any "extra" set screws lying around so I came up with another alternative. Now I don't know if my solution to the "spinning axle" problem is clever, but it is effective, quick, cheap and easy - almost scary now that I descibe it like that.
After messing with it a bit more I realized I could simply reverse the entire "locking" part of the assembly (meaning the axle shaft, screw, lock washer, and standard washer) and run the axle through the suspension arm from the back rather than the front. I could then secure the wheel using the screw and washer through the center collet, which is exctly how the front wheel is attached. I test fit both styles (as they are different) of plastic center hub cover and both easliy cover the screws. Now this mod on it's own doesnt prevent the axle from spinning in the suspension arm, but it does make that solution very very easy! Can you say JB Weld?
That's it, I ran th axle through the suspension arm from the back and JB welded it to the supsension. I can still remove the wheel if needed, The mod does not change the geometry or funtionality of the moving parts of the suspension or wheel, and the axle definitely does not spin any more.
Don't know if its the best solution, or even a good one, but it worked for me (so far anyway!) So I guess there is more than one way to suspend and Elefant
Squid
Thanks for the kind comments on rectifying the roadwheel hub/collet issue. The idea kind hit me in the middle of the forehead like a brick and I had one those "Aha moments".
Thanks also for sharing your thoughts and ideas on the other issue, I too had considered the standard Tamiya approach to securing the axles, but obviously my stash of harware is smaller than yours, I didnt have any "extra" set screws lying around so I came up with another alternative. Now I don't know if my solution to the "spinning axle" problem is clever, but it is effective, quick, cheap and easy - almost scary now that I descibe it like that.
After messing with it a bit more I realized I could simply reverse the entire "locking" part of the assembly (meaning the axle shaft, screw, lock washer, and standard washer) and run the axle through the suspension arm from the back rather than the front. I could then secure the wheel using the screw and washer through the center collet, which is exctly how the front wheel is attached. I test fit both styles (as they are different) of plastic center hub cover and both easliy cover the screws. Now this mod on it's own doesnt prevent the axle from spinning in the suspension arm, but it does make that solution very very easy! Can you say JB Weld?
That's it, I ran th axle through the suspension arm from the back and JB welded it to the supsension. I can still remove the wheel if needed, The mod does not change the geometry or funtionality of the moving parts of the suspension or wheel, and the axle definitely does not spin any more.
Don't know if its the best solution, or even a good one, but it worked for me (so far anyway!) So I guess there is more than one way to suspend and Elefant
Squid
11-26-2011, 09:20 PM
#24
RE: Hooben Elefant Build
At least you have some access to hobby shops. There are none in this berg of any import beyond one way off on the far south west side, and while their supplies of paints and models has grown dramatically in the last couple years, they don't carry the first nut, bolt, or screw. I was clever enough to ship a bunch of that sort of goodies before I moved here, and I can get them from EU also.
I think I'm going to go with the set screw gig. When I run the tanks, the AO is pretty rough on them, so I feel the need for a very positive axle retention system. However, I will for sure use your idea of reversing the axle.
Viper: Hooben is indeed coming out with metal tracks, should be ready inside of a month. They should be pretty good.
I think I'm going to go with the set screw gig. When I run the tanks, the AO is pretty rough on them, so I feel the need for a very positive axle retention system. However, I will for sure use your idea of reversing the axle.
Viper: Hooben is indeed coming out with metal tracks, should be ready inside of a month. They should be pretty good.
11-26-2011, 11:35 PM
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RE: Hooben Elefant Build
Craig and Bob, What I did to handle the axle rotating problem was to use a dremel tool with a thin cut-off wheel and made a shallow screwdriver slot
on the flanged end of the axle.You only have to do this for six axles,and they get covered by those nice hubcaps anyway.
Charlie
on the flanged end of the axle.You only have to do this for six axles,and they get covered by those nice hubcaps anyway.
Charlie