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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/29/2011 8:05 AM   
proptop



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Status: offline 		I agree...IMO slow cure Epoxy is the best way to go as far as strength and longevity is concerned. Your skins will never seperate from the foam cores. I have used the 4" foam rollers with success...much easier to apply the Epoxy than using a squeegie...and quicker, and you get a nice even / thin coat.

A friend that has designed and built many more airplanes than I, tried the double sticky carpet tape a few times...several years ago....and the wings / stabs that he did that way are seperating (de-laminating? ) in some areas. Exposure to heat / cold / humidity, etc. has something to do with that I think.

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/29/2011 9:31 AM   
MalcolmL



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Hi proptop of Rome, NY and anyone else with good ideas too !

How to solve my problem of delamination of an OLD model. HELP ! HELP ! I have the same trouble of delaminating balsa sheet on white foam. The model is a Tucano made from an ARF bought in UK more than a decade ago and it has travelled to Hong Kong (now China), then to Bangkok, Thailand and then is now in Chiangmai, Thailand. I just LOVE it and want to resurrect/repair it before the wings fold and clap hands overhead.

Parts of the wing surfaces are delaminating.

I do not want to try to remove the sheet and start again .... nor do I want to try anything else before getting some good ideas on what to do about it. I thought of making small pin **** holes and then squirting in some foam-safe CA - or some mixture of white glue (Elmers or similar) - and squirting it in using a syringe.

All good ideas gratefully received - thanks a lot. MalcolmL

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/29/2011 11:49 AM   
colmo-RCU



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Status: offline 		I feel that Gorilla is the best option out there, basically because as it expands it increases the adhesion area by orders of magnitude. Remember, you can use the strongest epoxy and it will only stick to the outer surface area of the very fragile foam, so there's no gain.

I do the lower sheeting first, then sand a taper to the trailing edge of the sheet to receive the top sheet. I use an old hotel keycard to apply a really thin layer, almost looking dry, to the wood only. I use a fair amount of force to remove the excess, so doing it on the foam would destroy it. I then spray a little water directly on the wood and press the panel inside the leftover foam from the block, using an ironing board with lots of heavy items on top.

After both sides are dry I trim the leading edge flush with the foam and sand the glue that "grew" out (it's the easiest glue to sand, seriously) and use gorilla again to glue the leading edge block. A little CA on the wood-to-wood portion helps a lot, but be very careful not to let any touch the foam or it's gone!

For the delaminated Tucano I would open it and fix it properly, but if you insist, I would inject gorilla (get a thick needle) in as many places as I can and then about half as much water trough the same holes. Then I would press it with bean bags, magazines, vacuum bag, anything that'll stop it from "inflating". At least the Gorilla will expand and cover a lot more area than any other glue will. Off course, it might ooze through any holes in the wing and jam ailerons, linkages, retracts, etc, so be very careful.

Here is my 4 Mt glider, built the way I described, and the wings only weigh 2 pounds complete with fiberglassing and transparent paint.

Good luck, Colmo

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/29/2011 12:12 PM   
goirish



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Status: offline 		where do you buy or what kind of white foam should I get. Is the kind that Home Depot sell OK. Also, how are you cutting the opening for the servos if you want to install 2 servos in the wing. Are you cutting a groove for the servo wire or are you drilling a hole. If cutting a groove do you put tape over it so the glue won't get in the slot.

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/29/2011 2:50 PM   
colmo-RCU



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Status: offline 		I don't live in the States, but as my wings re very thin I just went for the regular light foam in the local stationery store. For a thicker wing I would consider using thicker foam, or better yet, use the same lightweight one and add a shear web (vertical grain) along the span. Also, if you're using a joiner tube, get the sleeve to be between balsa with the vertical grain that go straight to the skin. That way you transfer all the force to the balsa instead of the foam.

For the servos i just used a sharp xacto knife to cut the boxes and was careful not to apply amy glue to the balsa where that box was. A little expanded Gorilla got in there but it was easily sanded off. I did use the hot wire to make a groove for the wires, leaving only a thin crack on the surface (where the wire enters and leaves). I did cover this with masking tape to keep the glue outside

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/29/2011 4:46 PM   
Warbirdguy



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Status: offline 		Gorish,

Here is where I buy all my foam. They deal alot with modelers so they are quite familiar with what you need as far as the type and weight of the foam. Do not get regrind LOL it may sound cheap but it opens up a whole nuther can of worms LOL

Drew Foam Company of TN
3050 Barry Drive
P.O. box 413
Portland, TN. 37148

They have an email addy but dont have my glasses on to read it lol and they are out in the shop.

phone is 1-877-325-1877

They are very resonable and great to work with.

They will even cut the foam to the general outline if you want them too

Hope this helps.



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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/29/2011 4:52 PM   
Warbirdguy



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quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmL


Hi proptop of Rome, NY and anyone else with good ideas too !

How to solve my problem of delamination of an OLD model. HELP ! HELP ! I have the same trouble of delaminating balsa sheet on white foam. The model is a Tucano made from an ARF bought in UK more than a decade ago and it has travelled to Hong Kong (now China), then to Bangkok, Thailand and then is now in Chiangmai, Thailand. I just LOVE it and want to resurrect/repair it before the wings fold and clap hands overhead.

Parts of the wing surfaces are delaminating.

I do not want to try to remove the sheet and start again .... nor do I want to try anything else before getting some good ideas on what to do about it. I thought of making small pin **** holes and then squirting in some foam-safe CA - or some mixture of white glue (Elmers or similar) - and squirting it in using a syringe.

All good ideas gratefully received - thanks a lot. MalcolmL



Ok, actually, I have dealt with this before . here is what I did. First, if you have a pet supply store around, go and get a large syringe with needle, like to give large animals vaccinations. mix and fill the syringe with slow cure epoxy. (pull the plunger out and fill from the big end, you can not suck it up the needle, tried that) stick the needle in the middle of the delaminated area and shoot a small ammount into that area just under the skin. Dont go to deep or it will not come out the needle. Then, wipe off the area and put a piece of black electrical tape over the injection hole. ( electrical tape wont stick to the paint or covering and pulls off easily) Do this to all the areas on one side at a time of the wing. Then, stack some magazines on the wing the mags will conform to the contour of the wing and push the sheeting down and into the epoxy. Let set overnight and walaa. its fixed. Repeat for other side.

Good luck

WBG

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/30/2011 12:36 AM   
EscapeFlyer



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Warbirdguy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ilikebipes

Glue the skins together.

Sand smooth.

Spray hairspray on the glue side of the sheeting to seal the wood. It will not get absorbed into the wood this way and you will save weight.

I'd use finishing resin. I'd apply it to the skins mixed in a large syringe in 1 inch squares (I don't want it to spread more than 1/4'' in width once the sheeting is set with weight.
Line joining areas with glue.
No, the entire surface will not be spread with glue.


Finishing resin gives you more time to work.

You could cut out lattice work in the foam core, but the foam is VERY light and not as much weight savings by cutting the foam as when you use this glue method.

Brian



Ok, you had me up till you said you dont want the entire area to be covered in glue. the whole reason for doing it that way is to keep it from rising up after its finished. Also, hairspray???? LOL. the main reason for using epoxy is because epoxy will penatrate the balsa a tiny bit to get a hold on it to ...hold it down...does not make any sense to keep the epoxy from sticking to the wood to save weight. I do 52'' wing panels. I use a total of maybe 2 oz of epoxy to do both top and bottom. That would be 4 oz of resin for 108'' of wing. I doubt weight would be an issue in the context. I know the original poster is not doing a plane that big, but, even if he did one at 60'', that would still be only a tad over 2 oz of resin. So I got to say, I dont know where you got that idea, but, I believe your over engineering and going on flawed data to support your idea. Hairspray??? LOL really??? Im sorry man. Im just setting here laughing at that one.

Stick with tried and true. Epoxy, spread thin as you can. Weight it down on a flat surface, you got your wing sheeting done the best it can be done.

WBG



I simply explained the method the top pattern flyers and builders use. No one has to believe me. I have nothing to prove.

Just ask yourself this question: Why do most people use a balsa sealers before fiberglassing their fuselages?

For the same reason I said I seal the balsa before adding the epoxy. It keeps the extra weight of all that glue out. It works, and yes, the wood still holds.

A person should test things on sacrificial pieces before they completely shut an idea that has been time tested and proven out.

Then of couse, ignorance is bliss...

But no one has to believe me. I'm okay with that.

Brian

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/30/2011 1:46 AM   
Warbirdguy



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Status: offline 		grrr I just typed a whole answer to your statement and RCU says it timed out and lost it all. This has happened a few times before. It wasnt that long and shorter than most of my posts. Ill reply again later. dinner time.

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/30/2011 2:41 AM   
EscapeFlyer



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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/30/2011 3:46 AM   
MalcolmL



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Hi - thanks for the good ideas about how to repair my delaminated Tucano wing. It seems the concensus way to go is with Gorilla Glue - except 1/ it's not available here in Thailand - and 2/ I've never used it before. I tried Tower Hobbies and it seems they don't have it either. So please - where to buy it ?

Also, nobody responded to my idea of injecting foam compatible CA - I'm thinking of the slow acting type - and then weight it all down ? Yes/No ?

MalcolmL - Chiangmai, Thailand


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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/30/2011 3:52 AM   
MalcolmL



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Thanks WBG - I'm familiar with using slow epoxy. How to remove the sheet first at the delam locations and how to repair the "hole" ? Thanks MalcolmL - Chiangmai, Thailand

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/30/2011 3:59 AM   
MalcolmL



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Hi Colmo - thanks for your good ideas. You say about the delam area "open it and fix it properly". Sorry, I don't understand - please explain more .... thanks. MalcolmL - Chiangmai, Thailand

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/30/2011 4:46 AM   
Warbirdguy



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Status: offline 		Now why would I want to do that

First off, I dont consider myself Ignorant by any means. Been in the business for 30" years. I know what works and what are "gimicks" I do epoxy glass molding, fiberglass repair both polyester and epoxy, I custom build also. So I think Ive been around the block enough to back up what I say.

As for the proccess you mentioned earlier, our club here has one of the most active glider population of any in Tenn. I have never heard any of them mention using ...hairspray...like you said.

If your into Pattern, do you know Mike Dunphy? I do. I also was involved with RC City before he bought it helping build some of there planes and testing. I also ended up buying some of their molds and stock when it sold. I never saw them use any hairspray. I have seen them use vacum bagging. they always used the same process. Epoxy between the cores and balsa sheeting.

So, I figure, you heard someone tell you this, and because it seemed to work for them it was adopted as industry standard. Its not, I assure you Seems funny your the only one in this thread that even mentioned it. As far as weight? Maybe in a park flyer or some small lightweight hand tossed glider you might be concerned with a tiny amount of weight from epoxy, but, in the size plane the poster is doing, its not a concern.

Now, I appoligize if I stepped on your toes, but, you asked for it with some hair brained idea (no pun intended LOL) about using hairspray to keep the epoxy from soaking into the wood.

Im sorry, but sounds like BS to me.

All Im saying bout it. Put up some data to prove me wrong

WBG

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/30/2011 7:36 AM   
colmo-RCU



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Status: offline 		Girls, stop fighting, I am sure you are both real studs, with your toy airplanes and all. JAJAJAJAJA

Now seriously, I've seen rc planes built out of beer cans, PVC pipes, steel wool, broomsticks, and covered with every kind of film and textile imaginable, including old fruit of the loom t-shirts. That means that at our scale we are so grossly over-structured that almost anything will do. That is with the obvious exception of stress points like wing joiners and firewalls and REALLY calculated high performance aircraft which I'm sure none of us make. That being said, I believe you both have had good results with your techniques, which do not seem unlikely to me at all. The hairspray is sure to weaken the adhesion of the resin and the balsa, but bear in mind that on the other side it's sticking to foam!! The only reason it doesn't separate is that it transfers the stress throughout the whole area of the wing. If little squares of glue do the trick, good for them!!

The fact that no one in ALL Tenn. uses it does not mean it can't work. I also believe that injecting epoxy into the delaminated wing will stick it back together, but I happen to believe that Gorilla will penetrate deeper and make a stronger bond, even though it's a lot weaker than Epoxy. If no one has tried it in Tenn. well, too bad.

Malcolm, sawari cap!! Gorilla is a glue that foams up when in contact with air moisture, which makes it grow and penetrate into porous materials. I don't know of any substitute for it, sorry. In your first post you said you didn't want to lift the skin and glue it again, so that's what I meant, by lifting the sheeting carefully you will be able to sand the inside, which is surely stiff with epoxy, and make a better bond. I think CA is out of the question, though, first because it will harden too fast for you to be able to apply it to more than one place, and because the joint with old epoxy will be too brittle.

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/30/2011 8:24 AM   
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Status: offline 		Malcom...my experiences with Foam Safe CA is that it NEEDS Accelerator or "kicker" to make it cure. That would be kind of hard to do (apply ) if you inject the glue into the wing thru small holes...that type of CA will stay wet for a looonnnggg time if you don't spritz it w/ kicker.

I have used slow cure Epoxy...injected thru small (approx. 1/8" diameter ) holes at each end of the seperation ara. I drill a vent hole as well as a glue injection hole, so that the epoxy can travel thru and across the void then come out the vent hole. The excess can also ooze out after you apply weights to push the sheeting back down.

Wipe off excess epoxy that oozes out with a cotton cloth wet with Acetone asap. Then touch up the holes with paint or iron-on covering.

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/30/2011 4:15 PM   
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Status: offline 		WBG, I recently built a Black Magic pattern plane and Mike Hester, the designer recommended using hair spray on the balsa skins as a sealer. It's supposed to save weight by preventing too much glue from soaking into the soft, contest balsa. Weight control is critical when building a pattern plane as you know. I followed Mike's instructions and used the hairspray along with Gorilla glue and my Black Magic finished out well within the weight limit. I don't know if the hairspray worked, I'm just saying...RS

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/30/2011 4:23 PM   
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Status: offline 		Just for clarification, I never said Gorilla glue wouldnt work. Matter of fact, after reading this thread, I have a project on the table right now that Im going to try it out and see for myself.

As for the "hairspray" comment. Tenn is God's country There is no other place anything will work

Im not bickering anymore. Said my piece. Done and done.

On to building

Also, proptop, I never thought about putting an exit hole when injecting epoxy. I just did it on two planes I fixed for others and was carefull to not inject too much epoxy. Duh....lol....an exit hole would make sure you didnt, expells air and excess epoxy. So simple. ouuuuccccchhh...my brain just grew another wrinkle. Thanks for that follow up tip. Will keep that one in mind.

Yall be happy, live long, and if you can in this economy, prosper.

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/30/2011 4:32 PM   
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Status: offline 		Sweet plane. Im sure he is the one that started all this then (that was a joke, dont take it wrong) I guess its going to come down to one of those theories that will some day be tested on Mythbusters Its just that, a myth at this stage. To make it legit, you would have to have a control then test it against doing one with and one without hairspray. I can tell you this. Foam is sold in weights, much like fiberglass cloth. Im sure there are slight deviations from actual formula's from different factories when the foam is manufactured. You might get a more dense foam than the last set of wings you got, or even the other way and end up with a lighter set of wing cores. Then there is the balsa itself. Even though its considered contest grade, you would have to weigh each piece and not to mention how much you sand off during the finishing process. If you cover with iron on or glass and paint. That makes a difference. I guess what Im trying to get everyone to see is, there are too many vareables to say putting hairspray on balsa saves weight. I think its a gimik and cant be proven. Thats all Im trying to say. To me, if you are adding something extra to the proccess, your adding weight Im sure the liquid in the hairspray weights something. I just dont see any logic.

Now, THAT is all Im saying

WBG

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/30/2011 4:59 PM   
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Status: offline 		Gene, the white foam at home stores will work just fine. In fact, the last time I cut a wing, one of our local stores (Menard's) had blocks that were pre-cut to fit between wall studs and I think about 36" long. They were only 1.5" thick, so I glued two together with gorilla glue first before cutting.

If you want some really nice foam, find a commercial roofing company in your town. They usually have 4x8 sheets of foam on hand that are anywhere from 3" to 8" thick.

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/30/2011 5:25 PM   
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Status: offline 		Would you use the white instead of the pink or blue? Or does it not make a difference.

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/30/2011 6:04 PM   
proptop



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Status: offline 		Generally speaking, the white is less dense....and lighter...
The pink or blue, being stiffer, can add a small element of additional strength.

One brief story...

Back when we were mid-teenagers, (mid 70's ) I helped a friend sheet the wings of his Midwest Mach 1 with 1/64" ply...
We were told to put "plenty of weight" on the foam shucks to ensure that the skins would be well adhered.

We used an entire set of Encyclpedia Britannica...
Well...the white foam cores were a bit "squished" ya might say...and the T.E....instead of being about 3/8" thick @ the root, and 1/4 @ the tips...well they were about half that thick...

The pink or blue foam will be more resistant to "squishing"... just in case you are now wondering about that sorta thing...

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/30/2011 6:09 PM   
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Status: offline 		I guess I was thinking about the pink or blue because it seems to cut a lot smoother. I seem to get ridges in the white foam. maybe I am doing something wrong when I try to cut the white.

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/30/2011 6:21 PM   
proptop



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quote:

ORIGINAL: goirish

I guess I was thinking about the pink or blue because it seems to cut a lot smoother. I seem to get ridges in the white foam. maybe I am doing something wrong when I try to cut the white.




FWIW, I haven't done a whole lot of foam cutting, but I have helped a buddy a few times...

The temp of the wire...the dia. of the wire...and the speed at which you cut thru the foam all contribute to smoothness (or lack of same ) of the finished product.

IIRC my friend said that he likes to use a smaller dia. wire when cutting white foam...the white, being less dense, will cut easier...
The pink or blue might actually need a heavier wire, for strength, as you make the cuts thru the harder foam?
The heavier Ga. wire needs more current to heat it....
Too much heat is your enemy, especially with white foam which will melt so easily...

Those are just some of the small tidbits of info I seem to recall while helping....hope I recalled correctly. Some of the other guys w/ more experience hopefully will add to it? HTH

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(in reply to goirish)
       Post #: 74

RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 11/30/2011 6:32 PM   
MinnFlyer



Posts: 28525
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From: Willmar, MN, USA
Status: offline 		Yes, the pink and blue are heavier, but not a whole lot. You can use whatever you like if a few ounces aren't going to keep you up at night.

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(in reply to proptop)
       Post #: 75

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