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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/2/2011 1:00 PM

goirish

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Guess I might as well chime in on the hair spray. No, I don't use it for skinning the wings. I use it before I put on Ultra or Monokote. Especially if I am putting the covering over ply. I use the cheapest Aqua Net. Cheaper than balsarite.. That does work well for me.

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/2/2011 2:19 PM

Warbirdguy

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I got the medium sized bottle. I think it was 4 oz? They had the bottle that looked like the flat CA bottle, then the smaller round bottle then the huge manly sized bottle. I got the one in between.

I have two built up wing panels for one of my C47's that Im going to use the monkey glue on to go over all the glue joints inside before I put the sheeting on. But, I do have a small combat type plane that Im going to try it on the wing cores for it

My mold release agent ( PVA ) is like that, it will wash off with water hose but no other cleaner or chemical will make a dent in it

Ive even used it before to spray on canopy's before painting to keep paint from sticking and masking it off. After it dries, you can just lift an edge and pull it off like plastic wrap you use to cover stuff in kitchen.

Ok. Yall take care.

WBG

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/2/2011 2:55 PM

MinnFlyer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmL

I can't find a source of Gorilla Glue locally

Gorilla Glue is just a brand name for Polyurethane Glue. You can find it under many brand names.

Polyurethane glue is not any stronger than other glues, but it works extremely well for sheeting foam because:

A. it does not attach foam

B. It swells as it cures, so it fills any gaps giving you a 100% bond between the foam and the sheeting.

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Post #: 103

RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/2/2011 4:22 PM

jquid

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Hey Warbirdguy,

Do you by any chance had a Summit III mold? if so any chance of getting a fuse made?
TIA.

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Post #: 104

RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/2/2011 7:04 PM

Warbirdguy

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Sorry TIA, I didnt get any of the pattern plan molds. I do believe Mike kept all those molds. I can email him and see if you like? If he does, Ill put him in contact with you. If he does and you need a plane pulled from it, I can do that for you. Ill email Mike first and see. Give me a day, should hear back from him tonight or tomorrow.

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/3/2011 4:19 AM

Warbirdguy

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Ok, used some of the gorrila glue. OMG. It reminds me of foam in the can insulation. I was carefull to spread a super thin coat with a hobby paint brush on a damp surface as recomended on the bottle. There was very little there. I came back a few hours later and it had blown up to almost a quarter of an inch in some places. In the context I used it in, an open framed up wing with ribs, it was ok and safe. I would NEVER used this on foam LOL If it blew up that much ...and I will post pictures tomorrow, I cant see how it would not lift the sheeting right up off the core and distort the actual airfoil. Yall can do what you want, Im not taking the chance. Ill go back to my carpenter glue for framing and stay with what works, epoxy for sheeting.

WBG

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/3/2011 4:32 AM

MalcolmL

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Hi MinnFlyer - thanks for post #103. It would help me to know some of those names of GG alternates - I would like to try them for myself. Thanks a lot.

In light of WBG's comments on GG (12/3/11 11:19) , maybe I wouldn't be very happy with GG either - but still I'd like to try it for myself. MalcolmL - Chiangmai Thailand.

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/3/2011 5:20 AM

kenh3497

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Warbirdguy

Ok, used some of the gorrila glue. OMG. It reminds me of foam in the can insulation. I was carefull to spread a super thin coat with a hobby paint brush on a damp surface as recomended on the bottle. There was very little there. I came back a few hours later and it had blown up to almost a quarter of an inch in some places. In the context I used it in, an open framed up wing with ribs, it was ok and safe. I would NEVER used this on foam LOL If it blew up that much ...and I will post pictures tomorrow, I cant see how it would not lift the sheeting right up off the core and distort the actual airfoil. Yall can do what you want, Im not taking the chance. Ill go back to my carpenter glue for framing and stay with what works, epoxy for sheeting.

WBG

You had it on too thick.

I use the poly glue like I'm glassing a wing. If the surface looks wet and shiny, you have to much glue. If the surface looks dry you need a bit more.

Now I have to say I've only used poly glue one time to sheet a wing. (I've just returned to the hobby after a very long layoff) I've used epoxy and variants of white glue in the past. I've never had a wing come apart.

The poly glue is by far the easiest to work with. I will continue to use poly glue for all my balsa over foam.

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/3/2011 6:52 AM

colmo-RCU

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It will not strengthen any joints if it's not BETWEEN them. I'm affraid you did nothing to your frame. Trust me, make a dummy foam core and sandwich it with some balsa, thats where you'll see the result. Better yet, use gorilla on one side and epoxy on the other and test them! You wont be disappointed

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/3/2011 1:45 PM

MinnFlyer

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Yes, that glue's "Foam" has no pressure (or very little). So by having the sheeting weighted down, the glue won't lift it

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/3/2011 10:09 PM

Warbirdguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kenh3497

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warbirdguy

Ok, used some of the gorrila glue. OMG. It reminds me of foam in the can insulation. I was carefull to spread a super thin coat with a hobby paint brush on a damp surface as recomended on the bottle. There was very little there. I came back a few hours later and it had blown up to almost a quarter of an inch in some places. In the context I used it in, an open framed up wing with ribs, it was ok and safe. I would NEVER used this on foam LOL If it blew up that much ...and I will post pictures tomorrow, I cant see how it would not lift the sheeting right up off the core and distort the actual airfoil. Yall can do what you want, Im not taking the chance. Ill go back to my carpenter glue for framing and stay with what works, epoxy for sheeting.

WBG

You had it on too thick.

I use the poly glue like I'm glassing a wing. If the surface looks wet and shiny, you have to much glue. If the surface looks dry you need a bit more.

Now I have to say I've only used poly glue one time to sheet a wing. (I've just returned to the hobby after a very long layoff) I've used epoxy and variants of white glue in the past. I've never had a wing come apart.

The poly glue is by far the easiest to work with. I will continue to use poly glue for all my balsa over foam.

It would not go any thinner. I used a small hobby paint brush, 1/8" width. It was not on too thick.

Ill never use it again.

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/3/2011 10:12 PM

Warbirdguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colmo-RCU

It will not strengthen any joints if it's not BETWEEN them. I'm affraid you did nothing to your frame. Trust me, make a dummy foam core and sandwich it with some balsa, thats where you'll see the result. Better yet, use gorilla on one side and epoxy on the other and test them! You wont be disappointed

The wing was already glued up with carpenters wood glue, Im not a beginer

I just put some around the joints in the corners and on one section of sheeting I used it between the ribs and sheeting. Once again, I am not a beginer, just first and last time GG will be used for anything in my shop. My choice. does not mean you guys didnt have good luck with it. I just dont like it and not anything that can be said about it pertaining to RC will convince me otherwise. So save all yoru comments on how I did it wrong to yourself.

WBG

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/4/2011 1:19 AM

HighPlains

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Some good tips and techniques in this thread.

I built my first foam wing over 37 years ago. It was painful and poorly done. Since, I have build dozens and dozens of foam wings for competition aircraft that had to be both light and extremely strong since racing models can pull 40g's in turns.

So I tried the brush on contact glues. Makes a mess, and is heavy. Avoid unless you like building with techniques that ran out of steam in the '70's

Contact spray. Still messy, fairly strong, can melt foam if done wrong.

Epoxy glues - done right does not add that much weight, but not really very strong due to the fact that the limited epoxy does not make great contact with the foam. I’ve seen many crashed airplanes with the skins popped loose from the foam.

Contact “double sided” tapes. This is usually 3M 465 high tack acrylic adhesive tape. It’s 2 mils thick with up to 10 pounds of strength per square in and get stronger with time. It comes in 2 in. wide rolls, as is about $30 for a roll. This works best if you prep the skins, sand, vacuum, and tack clean, then apply the tape as it comes off the roll to the wood skins only. Then burnish onto the wood before removing the backing and applying to the cores. It does need to be weighted down for a day for the best bond to the cores.
I built a lot of wings with this technique.

But the poly glues are now the best way. You do want to seal the balsa with either a light mist of hairspray or nitrate dope unless you build overweight warbirds with typical lead weight balsa wood where nothing soaks in. But if you use contest balsa (6 to 8 pound density) you have to limit the porosity of the wood. The strength of this technique (Poly glue) is that the expansion of the glue drives it into the foam core, thus giving a better and lighter bond than any other technique. There has never been a problem with any of the techniques listed above bonding with the wood, just bonding to the foam beads of the core.

A quick note on the rest of the process:

Join the skins first. You may need to do some trimming of the edges first, but get everything squared up, then tape down the seam with masking tape and glue with model airplane cement, not CA, not white glue, or any other type of glue. Just old fashion model airplane glue like Ambroid, or Sigment. These glues sand better than anything else on the market. Anyway, glue and tape the other side of the seam with a few strips across the glue joints. When done, remove tape and sand both sides of the skins with a 3M block sander to at least 180 grit. Vacuum and wipe down with a slightly damp cloth.

You also have to sand the cores lightly to remove the peaks of the foam where it was cut. Use 240 grit paper, again with the 3M sanding block. Vacuum the cores before covering.

Foam wings are almost 50 years old at this point. Certainly easier than most think to learn how to do.

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/5/2011 4:37 PM

Warbirdguy

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"Epoxy glues - done right does not add that much weight, but not really very strong due to the fact that the limited epoxy does not make great contact with the foam. I’ve seen many crashed airplanes with the skins popped loose from the foam. "

So, if you saw a built up wing that was on an airplane that was involved in a CRASH and broken apart and glue joints broken loose, does that mean what ever glue they used was not a good glue? Ive seen lots of crahes, most of them my own lol, and there are parts seperated all over the plane. Wood, fiberglass, plastic, and other materials.

A crash is just that, a crash. Of course stuff is going to come apart

its a CRASH!!!!!

I dont see how that statement has any relivance to this issue.

If the skin came off in flight, or setting on the ground under no stress, then you can say the epoxy is not a good way to glue on a skin. I have seen skins come loose using contact cement, southern sourgum, and sticky tape. I have never seen any skin come loose from epoxy.

As far as the argument about penatration into the foam, tech....it cant happen with any glue. The white foam is a closed cell foam. Thats why the marine industry uses it primarily. It cant obsorb chemicals or water. Its...CLOSED CELL....

If you take the time to sand the surface of the foam core before putting the epoxy and sheeting on, it will stick

Its nothing but surface tension. The smoother it is (level) the better the bond is.

Its really just comon sense stuff here. Some are way out there and some are basic down to earth good ole common sense keep it simple ways. The later always works.

WBG

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/5/2011 6:25 PM

kenh3497

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Warbirdguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: kenh3497

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warbirdguy

Ok, used some of the gorrila glue. OMG. It reminds me of foam in the can insulation. I was carefull to spread a super thin coat with a hobby paint brush on a damp surface as recomended on the bottle. There was very little there. I came back a few hours later and it had blown up to almost a quarter of an inch in some places. In the context I used it in, an open framed up wing with ribs, it was ok and safe. I would NEVER used this on foam LOL If it blew up that much ...and I will post pictures tomorrow, I cant see how it would not lift the sheeting right up off the core and distort the actual airfoil. Yall can do what you want, Im not taking the chance. Ill go back to my carpenter glue for framing and stay with what works, epoxy for sheeting.

WBG

You had it on too thick.

I use the poly glue like I'm glassing a wing. If the surface looks wet and shiny, you have to much glue. If the surface looks dry you need a bit more.

Now I have to say I've only used poly glue one time to sheet a wing. (I've just returned to the hobby after a very long layoff) I've used epoxy and variants of white glue in the past. I've never had a wing come apart.

The poly glue is by far the easiest to work with. I will continue to use poly glue for all my balsa over foam.

It would not go any thinner. I used a small hobby paint brush, 1/8'' width. It was not on too thick.

Ill never use it again.

Apply poly glue with a playing card, a scrap piece of balsa or bondo spreader. Anything but a paint brush. Spread the glue around until a light film is on the surface of choice. If the surface looks "wet", you have to much glue. If the surface looks "dry" you need a bit more glue. If you have ever used epoxy to skin a wing then you understand the process. Same "dry/wet" process it apply glass cloth to the exterior of the wing.

Like I said before, I will not go back to epoxy for skinning wings.

Ken

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/5/2011 7:01 PM 1 votes

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HighPlains

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Here is one of the best tutorial articles I have seen with dozens of photos on how to build a foam wing. While it does not show how to build up a retract mount, the techniques shown are very good for the rest of the wing. It is well worth your time to view.

http://www.mackrc.net/patternwings2/index.htm

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/5/2011 7:35 PM

goirish

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HighPlains

Here is one of the best tutorial articles I have seen with dozens of photos on how to build a foam wing. While it does not show how to build up a retract mount, the techniques shown are very good for the rest of the wing. It is well worth your time to view.

http://www.mackrc.net/patternwings2/index.htm

HighPlains
I really appreciate the link. Very, very, good. Thanks.

I gave you a 5 rating.

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/6/2011 1:59 AM

Warbirdguy

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[/quote]

Apply poly glue with a playing card, a scrap piece of balsa or bondo spreader. Anything but a paint brush. Spread the glue around until a light film is on the surface of choice. If the surface looks ''wet'', you have to much glue. If the surface looks ''dry'' you need a bit more glue. If you have ever used epoxy to skin a wing then you understand the process. Same ''dry/wet'' process it apply glass cloth to the exterior of the wing.

Like I said before, I will not go back to epoxy for skinning wings.

Ken
[/quote]

Uh, I have skinned a fair share of wings in my life. Been building for 30 years. Never had an issue with it till I posted here

The small area I did try the GG you could not get a card into. As far as "if it looks wet, to much glue, and if it looks dry, you need more???? WTH LOL. What if it looks...damp? LMAO Too complicated and I still see no benefits.

I think the OP got his answer. Seems Gorrilla Glue sales reps or investers have hijacked this thread now. Im not using the stuff on any of my planes. You can write your long, foggy, unclear, responses till you pass away of old age. Not going to change my mind

As far as Im concerned, anything wrote about GG and foam wings is just Blah Blah Blah Blah

Epoxy is the way, unless you dont know how to use it properly. If you did, you would not be looking for another glue that would require no intellegence to use.

WBG

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/6/2011 2:09 AM

goirish

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WOW!!!! Didn't know it was going to get this intense.

. I do thank everyone that posted what they believe. Now all I have to do is decide what is right for me.

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/6/2011 4:41 AM

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warbirdguy

You made me laugh. I have used a lot of different glues to sheet wings. GG Does work very well for sheeting a foam core though. I even tried water based poly u to sheet a wing. one coat on each side, while damp, put back in the shucks, weigh down for a day or two. sort of worked but swelled the balsa to much. I have also tried the white glue method with no success. You can use 3m90 to sheet the wings even though the 3m90 eats foam like crazy. I just brushed on a coat of thinned titebond, sprayed the 3m90 on the core and the sheeting, then bagged. They sure stuck.

I have used the epoxy, balanced glass cloth, balsa sheeting. I wet the glass cloth with resin, roll out as much as I can get out of the cloth, place on the core, cover with balsa, then bag. That makes a strong wing. I have used that method with 1/32 balsa in place of 1/16. That wing was a strong wing.

I hate to think of all the material I have tossed out learning to build. One of my early foam cores was out of surfboard foam and marine resin. You could drive your truck across it without damage. Yet it weighed in at about 5 pounds for a 40 sized wing. If there is a mistake out there, I may have done it at least once, if not twice.

Buzz.

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/6/2011 9:54 PM

kenh3497

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Warbirdguy

Apply poly glue with a playing card, a scrap piece of balsa or bondo spreader. Anything but a paint brush. Spread the glue around until a light film is on the surface of choice. If the surface looks ''wet'', you have to much glue. If the surface looks ''dry'' you need a bit more glue. If you have ever used epoxy to skin a wing then you understand the process. Same ''dry/wet'' process it apply glass cloth to the exterior of the wing.

Like I said before, I will not go back to epoxy for skinning wings.

Ken

Uh, I have skinned a fair share of wings in my life. Been building for 30 years. Never had an issue with it till I posted here

The small area I did try the GG you could not get a card into. As far as ''if it looks wet, to much glue, and if it looks dry, you need more???? WTH LOL. What if it looks...damp? LMAO Too complicated and I still see no benefits.

I think the OP got his answer. Seems Gorrilla Glue sales reps or investers have hijacked this thread now. Im not using the stuff on any of my planes. You can write your long, foggy, unclear, responses till you pass away of old age. Not going to change my mind

As far as Im concerned, anything wrote about GG and foam wings is just Blah Blah Blah Blah

Epoxy is the way, unless you dont know how to use it properly. If you did, you would not be looking for another glue that would require no intellegence to use.

WBG

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree on this matter LOL. I guess what works well for one person does not necessarily work for the next. I suppose that's why Ford and Chevy were invented!

Oh, "damp" is perfect.

Ken

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/7/2011 5:11 AM

MalcolmL

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Hi KenH - yes, I agree with you - and thank all contributors for their input - very much. Let's close this one now - it's been an interesting ride - or flight ! I only have one more non-controversial question still unanswered - can anyone tell me the brand name - or names - of poly glue - to see if I can get it here in Thailand ? Thanks again. MalcolmL - Chiangmai Thailand

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/7/2011 2:50 PM

MinnFlyer

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Malcolm, just do a google search for polyurethane glue. Most major glue companies have them now.

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RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings. - 12/7/2011 3:06 PM

Warbirdguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmL

Hi KenH - yes, I agree with you - and thank all contributors for their input - very much. Let's close this one now - it's been an interesting ride - or flight ! I only have one more non-controversial question still unanswered - can anyone tell me the brand name - or names - of poly glue - to see if I can get it here in Thailand ? Thanks again. MalcolmL - Chiangmai Thailand

LOL your not the OP

I guess the one that is most availiable here is Gorilla Glue But as the other said, just google it.

WBG

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All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> Beginners >> RE: Need some ideas on putting balsa on foam wings.
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