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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/13/2012 4:06 PM   
basimpsn


 

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Status: offline 		Just purchase a Ultra Flash and hope practice what ive learn so far Anybody flying the ultra Flash finding it easy to do these maneuvers?


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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/13/2012 4:34 PM   
InboundLZ



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Status: offline 		So, Ali....about those P-mixes....care to share your method on setting them up?

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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/13/2012 4:51 PM   
BaldEagel



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Outstanding post as always, I have copied it and will re-read it at lesure or at least whilst on the sim.

Thanks again
Mike

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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/13/2012 4:56 PM   
Ali



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Status: online 		Ultra flash is a great slow rolling machine. Due to its small side area it does need to be going reasonably fast though. Very little mixing if any required. Lots of rudder movement, little aileron.
I will start to write up a set up procedure post this evening. It will probably be Monday, maybe Sunday by the time its done I am afraid.
Mike. Thankyou, and remember no leisure on that sim, get working


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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/13/2012 4:58 PM   
basimpsn


 

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Status: offline 		Sounds good Thx


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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/13/2012 5:38 PM   
bevar


 

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Status: offline 		A very important part of one's training is make sure you find someone who truly already knows how to do what ever new maneuver you are trying to learn/perfect and have him "judge" you.

Seriously...what most people end up doing is spending loads of time "perfecting their mistakes" instead of getting better. As a good friend of mine said one day after I worked with him learning how to perform a proper 4 point roll: "You really don't know what you don't know...so unless someone tells you what is going wrong...you just don't know it".

He also commented that he learned more in two flights with me watching/coaching him than he had learned in the past 10 years of flying on his own...and this chap is a very well respected leader in our jet community who everyone here knows, has loads of experience ETC.

Remember...PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!!!

Beave

< Message edited by bevar -- 1/13/2012 11:48 PM >

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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/13/2012 5:46 PM   
basimpsn


 

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Status: offline 		Hey boli I was very impress with your lighting Freestyle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9xe2OoRkyY


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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/13/2012 6:15 PM   
VF84sluggo



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quote:

ORIGINAL: bevar
Seriously...what most people end up doing is spending loads of time ''perfecting their mistakes'' instead of getting better.

Beave

Well said Boli. Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

Sluggo

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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/13/2012 6:26 PM   
Malydilnar


 

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Status: online 		for a slow roll, I recommend you be flying fast but not full spead. You need to control the roll with rudder and elevator inputs. You will soon find that the plane will fly toward you or away from you when you are in knife edge flight during the roll, so you will need to control it with elevator during the knife edge flight. When you are flying inverted, smoothly put in elevator input, because if you just jam the elevator down there will be an obvious bump in your roll. Make sure you practice this maneuver high up the ground first, before you know how it behaves during the slow roll.

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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/13/2012 6:49 PM   
oliveDrab



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Tell me if I've got this right. For a 4-point left roll:

1. Left aileron, right rudder
2. left aileron, down elevator
3. left aileron, left rudder
4. left aileron, no rudder

For a 4-point right roll:

1. Right aileron, left rudder
2. right aileron, down elevator
3. right aileron, right rudder
4. right aileron, no rudder

I've got the cheapy, basic version of the Real Flight Simulator. Can you suggest a good plane to practice with? I assume a high-wing trainer is not good. There's a couple of low-wing tail draggers that might work.



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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/13/2012 6:59 PM   
erbroens



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ali

Is my English that bad, its almost Portuguese ?





Nope, guess that flying is a way of expression, almost like a language. that´s very cool IMO.



Anyway, I´m glad my flying is better than my spoken English.








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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/13/2012 7:28 PM   
Nhalyn



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quote:

ORIGINAL: oliveDrab


Tell me if I've got this right. For a 4-point left roll:

1. Left aileron, right rudder
2. left aileron, down elevator
3. left aileron, left rudder
4. left aileron, no rudder

For a 4-point right roll:

1. Right aileron, left rudder
2. right aileron, down elevator
3. right aileron, right rudder
4. right aileron, no rudder

I've got the cheapy, basic version of the Real Flight Simulator. Can you suggest a good plane to practice with? I assume a high-wing trainer is not good. There's a couple of low-wing tail draggers that might work.



I'm not thinking it that way, because in flight I haven't time to think about "I was rolling left so I need first left rudder"... And that leads to inverted order !

The right stuff (for me !) is that :

What ever the position of the plane during the rool, the plane nose have to point a little "high" to ensure the plane flying straight and not going down. See what I mean ?

Thinking it that way, I feel easier to put the right order in. And so it work also for all other maneuver !

Take a small 10 inch practice plane in your hand, put it in whatever position you want, stop it, and think of what you should do to have the nose goes up : immediately you what is needed : for exemple lots of "this side" rudder and small "this side" elevator. Not right or left, but "this side". After some practice, it becomes automatic ! "This side" always work and train you to put the stick "this side" more than thinking "I have to put left". Sometimes I miss my left from my right, so.... I prefer to think "I have to put the nose up".

Thanks Ali for the long post, I feel happy to see that my "flying tips" are so close to a top rank pilot one's ! (I'm not sure to be a top rank, but I try to becomes that...)

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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/13/2012 7:43 PM   
hofer


 

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Status: offline 		Hi guys,
Just for all of you to tell how good it can get concerning veeeery slow rolling - CPLR ( Christophe Paysant le-Roux - 7 times F3A world champion ) used to celebrate
his victories with just another of his perfect pattern routines after the contest - but this time overlayed by a slow roll of about 5 to 8 seconds per 360 degrees !!
That is from the moment of lift off to 5s before touch down ( roughly 6 min of flight time !!)
I will never ever forget this kind of performance !!
see you
Hans

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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/13/2012 8:08 PM   
basimpsn


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: oliveDrab


Tell me if I've got this right. For a 4-point left roll:

1. Left aileron, right rudder
2. left aileron, down elevator
3. left aileron, left rudder
4. left aileron, no rudder

For a 4-point right roll:

1. Right aileron, left rudder
2. right aileron, down elevator
3. right aileron, right rudder
4. right aileron, no rudder

I've got the cheapy, basic version of the Real Flight Simulator. Can you suggest a good plane to practice with? I assume a high-wing trainer is not good. There's a couple of low-wing tail draggers that might work.




Thinking about it that way won't help, Just practice canopy facing you Knife edge all the way until you are comfortable . then wheels to you knife edge left and right. the easy part would be inverted flight around the field. Then you can link it all together.

I don't think the older F/S planes can be edited or shared so buy yourself the newer REALFLIGHT 4.00,4.5 ,or 6.0. its the best investment. I learn how to fly a heli and doing some basic 3d Piro Flip,tic toc , Planes hover rolling harrier and 4 point roll. rolling circle. Now I own a Trex 600N doing the same 3d stuff on the Sim.

This video was my first attempt at 3d after practicing on R/F sim . P.S having
fun with some sound effects

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4c3Cfhf1Dc&list=LLcYtQCMrAKveP2hFdE9VOQg&index=1&feature=plpp_video


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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/13/2012 8:39 PM   
tassos p



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Status: offline 		THANK YOU GUYS

Thank you Ali, I will indeed also copy and print your post to have it in hand at the field.

Thank you Boli for your comments and the nice videos out there with you flying the Tucano and the Lightning. Really inspiring for alot of people (including me) saying....I wan't to become like him one day...

Thank you Nhalyn for the humorous but right on the topic posts and very helpful indeed as well....see what I mean???

The weather forecast for tomorrow will be a sunny day with 3-5 knots of wind at my flying field so I will try to burn alot of fuel....rolling slowly....and maybe I'll get there someday....

Thank you all for your contribution to this thread....

Tassos


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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/13/2012 11:50 PM   
bevar


 

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Status: offline 		Bas,

Thanks!

I learned everything from Glen and Angel...LOL!

Boli

PS. OK...maybe I'm fibbing just a wee bit.


quote:

ORIGINAL: basimpsn

Hey boli I was very impress with your lighting Freestyle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9xe2OoRkyY



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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/14/2012 12:15 AM   
bevar


 

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Status: offline 		I really like what Ali wrote...well dissected and presented. I was befuddled however when he was talking about P mixes. I had no idea what he was saying until it hit me (I think). P mixes are Futaba mix pages for mixing what ever to what ever. I guess he is talking about mixing out the roll coupling (rudder to elevator and rudder to aileron).

That is exactly what you need to do, and it's not too hard. Basically, fly a right to left knife edge pass and see how much if any aileron and elevator you are holding in to keep the plane knife edge. Make a note of it and when you land, go to your aileron and elevator mix page and add in the values you were holding when in flight. For instance, you need a quarter stick of right rudder to hold knife edge altitude, and 1/4 left aileron input to keep it from rolling out. Move the aileron 1/4 left and look at the aileron and see how far it is deflected. Now move the rudder 1/4 right and start adding in your "aileron mix" until the aileron is deflected the same amount when you were holding it in. Do the same for the elevator and go fly.

Make minor adjustments more or less to fine tune it until you can roll knife edge and hold altitude, heading and 90 degrees with only rudder and you are there. Repeat for the other side and it's done. The final test I do if I really care is an inverted flat turn. Come by inverted and feed in right or left ruder and do a flat, skidding 360 degree turn. If your mixes are spot on, you will not have to add anything other than what you are holding for level inverted flight. That's taking it to the extreme and I would probably not do it with a jet going 200MPH but with a Yak or Extra that's the way to do it.

In my opinion, the biggest mistake people make with super slow rolls and point rolls are that they do not smoothly "blend" the stick inputs while transitioning through the different phases of the maneuver...they jam in the control corrections. Smooth smooth smooth is the key. Also...basically...the sticks never quit moving until you have completed the maneuver...sort of like when a 3D guy is doing a Harrier Roller...the sticks never stop moving. Same principle here...just a lot sloooooooower and much more precise and smooth.

Beave









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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/14/2012 2:02 AM   
BaldEagel



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quote:

ORIGINAL: bevar

I really like what Ali wrote...well dissected and presented. I was befuddled however when he was talking about P mixes. I had no idea what he was saying until it hit me (I think). P mixes are Futaba mix pages for mixing what ever to what ever. I guess he is talking about mixing out the roll coupling (rudder to elevator and rudder to aileron).

Beave



That's exactly what they are, but Ali fly's Spektrum/JR. unless he has seen the light.

Mike

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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/14/2012 2:28 AM   
FireBee



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Status: offline 		Olive drab,

After reading Ali's post the slow roll is next Show off maneuver!

Since it was said some things happen fast, what I always go into a roll planning are two things: i1 pull slight nose up 5-10 degrees.
2. If i plan to roll left . . . then I must Finish with left rudder. (if roll right, I finish with right)

This equates to step 3 in your post. For me, in my mind, it is the transition from inverted to knife edge (step 3) of the 4 point roll.
For continuous medium rate roll (4 seconds in my mind) it is also the final rudder needed for the back half so that the nose does not drop below level.

Slow rolls to me are 8 or more seconds and I'm working that so pure inverted is at 4 seconds mark. But the continuos stick movement is hard as I am still a thumb flyer vice a finger and tray flyer. I'm old school so downwind axial rolls, upwind for barrel rolls. As for me, seeing Bob Violet do the Blue Angel F4 slow roll at 10 ft is so impressive.

Cheers,
Mike P.




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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/14/2012 11:02 AM   
oliveDrab



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quote:

ORIGINAL: FireBee

Olive drab,

After reading Ali's post the slow roll is next Show off maneuver!

Since it was said some things happen fast, what I always go into a roll planning are two things: i1 pull slight nose up 5-10 degrees.
2. If i plan to roll left . . . then I must Finish with left rudder. (if roll right, I finish with right)

This equates to step 3 in your post. For me, in my mind, it is the transition from inverted to knife edge (step 3) of the 4 point roll.
For continuous medium rate roll (4 seconds in my mind) it is also the final rudder needed for the back half so that the nose does not drop below level.

Slow rolls to me are 8 or more seconds and I'm working that so pure inverted is at 4 seconds mark. But the continuos stick movement is hard as I am still a thumb flyer vice a finger and tray flyer. I'm old school so downwind axial rolls, upwind for barrel rolls. As for me, seeing Bob Violet do the Blue Angel F4 slow roll at 10 ft is so impressive.

Cheers,
Mike P.





Thanks Mike! I'm really impressed with the detailed information I'm getting in this thread. Do you know where can I find a video of the Blue Angel F4 slow roll? I'll try YouTube and see what I can find.

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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/14/2012 12:10 PM   
pbusa1400



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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/14/2012 12:16 PM   
Nhalyn



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quote:

ORIGINAL: FireBee
2. If i plan to roll left . . . then I must Finish with left rudder. (if roll right, I finish with right)

As I was explaining before, I don't think "left" or "right", it has to be automatic.

My tip is : when I start a rool, the first rudder correction will be opposite of aileron. then push, then the rudder goes opposite from the first rudder order => the stick had a circular movement.

This work all the time, even if you do a 4 point rool or slow roll starting canopy in or canopy out for the first part of the rool. First rudder order will always be opposite from the aileron maintened order, you don't have to think.

If you start your slow rool or 4 point rool inverted (lets complicated this even more ! ) you just have to remember that rudder is inverted when you fliyng inverted...

Practice and practice and practice will help this become automatic. A pattern propelled plane, not only F3A but even small sized F3A style planes will be of great help. I also mix that with park flyer 3D plane. With those planes you don't have time to think "is it left or right for rudder", you have to do it instinctively, and this a grerat help for more complicated planes after. Indoor flying and indoor 3D flying gives me the best practice for my flying skills !

< Message edited by Nhalyn -- 1/14/2012 12:40 PM >

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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/14/2012 8:33 PM   
j.duncker



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Status: offline 		My slow rolls improved when I started to fly a slowish 3D model. I learned which control to input and how much to input to get the darn thing to do what I wanted. I then flew the snot out of it until those became reflex reactions not thought ones.

Flying a rolling circle with a single roll in it is a very good learning exercise. You learn how to feed in the necessary inputs smoothly and in combination with one another. I.E. at 45 % roll you need some top rudder and some up elevator.

Once the control inputs become automatic if you then get a model set up correctly with the rudder induced roll etc dialled out then the slow roll becomes easier to fly well.

Mind you I never did have the plumbs to fly a slow roll at less than 50 feet with any of my jets, I just watched Ali and Mark do them.

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RE: Loooooong slooooowwwwwww rolls.....how to? - 1/15/2012 8:32 AM   
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