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coleman camp fuel (white gas) to help winter starting - 1/18/2012 11:26 PM   
jimmyjames213



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Status: offline 		I am mixing my fuel and was curious if coleman camp fuel (white gas) would improve cold weather starting? Normally white gas is used as a starter fluid for glows but I am curious if anyone has tried a white gas mix. That being said if no one has would anyone like results posted?

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RE: coleman camp fuel (white gas) to help winter starting - 1/19/2012 4:55 AM   
KeroPower


 

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Status: offline 		I once ran an OS .25 LA with an OS #6 plug on Coleman Fuel and 20% Klotz Super Techniplate. No methanol what so ever. The glow plug stayed lit when the power was taken away and the little OS ran pretty well. Throttled nicely. The idle was kind of squirrely though.

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RE: coleman camp fuel (white gas) to help winter starting - 1/19/2012 9:53 PM   
balsaeater


 

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Status: offline 		Colemans fuel is a type of gasoline fuel. For stove for cooking its burn cleanly leaving no soot
However compared to modern gasoline fuels it turns into vapor gas very quickly so it can create a explosion similar to a gas explosion from a naked flame in closed space like your garage .
In the early automobile days the gasoline fuels they used were primitive compared today mostly a type of Colmans white gas fuel and due to its volatility to create explosions in closed spaces like garages means the word GAS was the logical it was sorta more like GAS than a safer liquid fuel like diesel or paraffin.

Modern gasoline take fuels like Colmans and change the molecules into more complex molecules and that raises the octane and reduces it ability to turn into vapor gas so quickly.
They also add Toulene a type of paint stripper to the modern gasoline fuels (sub note Modern cars can run on 100% Toulene ).
The Toulene agent has a very high Octane eg it it is more reluctant to ignite from compression allowing the engines in automobiles have higher compression ratios typically 10:1
Original old fashioned cars like the model T Ford using Colemans type fuels with low octane as low as 70 had to use very low compression ratios as low as 6:1
model T cars 3000 CC motor could only make ~20 BHP~.
A modern engine 3000cc could easily make more than 100BHP but it needs fuels that have high octane . Low compression equals low power.
With model glow engines there are several issues to consider .The first issue is that gasoline fuels burn very hot compared to methanol fuels ( Methanol fuel consumption is often twice as much as gasoline fuels and the extra volume of fuel helps cools the engines) .
Gasoline motor often have large cooling fins . Colemans fuels burn even hotter again than gasoline fuels so there is more risks to over heat model engines
The other issues to consider is that Colemans fuels could risk pre detonation (ping )as most model glow engine are compression ratios of about 10:1 or higher . This ping in time can burn holes in the top of pistons.
Other issues is that model fuels contain lubricating oil.these oils come in two types such as a type suitable to mix with gasoline and another type suitable to mix with methanol. Gasoline type oils don't generally mix well with methanol fuels but some methanol oils can mix ok with gasoline. However methanol oils are not cheap compared to gasoline suitable lubrication oils.
The addition of extra lubrication oils can change the octane of the model fuels and that shows up with the fuel less prone to ping .
I suspect that well worn sports glow motors with a unusaul high oil content lubricating oil in a Colmans fuel mix in cool weather could operate
however some glow engines with this mix might require a glow driver to keep the glow going.
However I suspect that gas throttle control issues would show up as the glow fuel jet needle is be made for twice as much fuel flow . This could make controlling a reduced fuel flow a sensitive to air fuel ratios problem.
Changing the jet to gasoline types might cure that problem
There is one model pane that crossed the Atlantic ocean using ~2.5 Kgs of Colemans fuel and a very modified 10cc four stroke glow motor . The engine had a spark ignition retro fitted to it
The result was the plane doing a average speed of 55MPH was using about 2 onze of fuel per hour as compared to typical glow sports engine of the same type could use more than 20 onze per hour . This engine also used a large 14 inch prop and the engine was run at low RPM speeds
It rather looks like the only real advantage to using Colemans fuel is for long duration duration flying events with highly modified engines big props where steady state engine running at low speeds is the requirements.
Hopefully that explains where the issues are
Balsaeater

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RE: coleman camp fuel (white gas) to help winter starting - 1/20/2012 6:21 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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Status: offline 		Gasoline is not made from naptha.  They are both processed from the same batch of crude at the same time.  Naptha is simply heavier than fuel oil, diesel, turbine fuel, kerosene, but heavier than avgas and mogas.  Naptha for thinners and possiblty Colemans is further refined for various reasons, but not mde from gasoline.

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RE: coleman camp fuel (white gas) to help winter starting - 1/20/2012 11:27 PM   
jimmyjames213



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Status: offline 		im not talking about running the thing on 100% coleman fuel....i was just thinking about useing 5% or so (useing the volity of the fuel to get my engines going in cold weather) the compression ratio should not drop and hopefully 5% will not cause the oil to fall out of solution.

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RE: coleman camp fuel (white gas) to help winter starting - 1/21/2012 4:06 AM   
w8ye



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Status: offline 		The vapor pressure of Colman fuel must be greater than gasoline because if you try to run gasoline in a lantern not made for gasoline, you will have a hard time keeping it going. The fire will keep going out.


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RE: coleman camp fuel (white gas) to help winter starting - 1/23/2012 2:22 PM   
Dave Harmon


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jimmyjames213

im not talking about running the thing on 100% coleman fuel....i was just thinking about useing 5% or so (useing the volity of the fuel to get my engines going in cold weather) the compression ratio should not drop and hopefully 5% will not cause the oil to fall out of solution.

Jimmy.....just add about 1oz of acetone per gallon of regular glow fuel and that will help with the cold starting and idle.
Forget the Coleman fuel or any petro in a glow engine.

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RE: coleman camp fuel (white gas) to help winter starting - 1/23/2012 8:44 PM   
balsaeater


 

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Status: offline 		There is always the ether ( dimythalether i think ) solution for cold starting .This ether fuel is often used with automobiles comes in spray can .In cold weather the pressurized can delivers the ether fuel into the air intake of the car. Once the car starts there is no need for any extra ether fuel.A can of this sprayed into the air intake should kick start any cold engine .However expect the odd backfire as ether is very gaseous fuel. Ether mixed into fuel would be expensive and it evaporates quickly . Ask the old hands who control line diesel engines in the past .
Adding small amounts of Colmans or acetone or ether to glow fuel might not hurt the engine but may not improve the cold engine start .
I know that ether mixes with castor oil mixed with paraffin but have no information on how it would mix with synthetic oil.
Castor oil makes cold starting difficult as it gets gummy at low temperatures and can fall out of suspension in the fuel cans at low temperatures .

Hope that helps

Balaseater

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RE: coleman camp fuel (white gas) to help winter starting - 1/25/2012 7:36 AM   
w8ye



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Status: offline 		Until I was up in my 20's and more than 40 yrs ago, I was crazy enough to fly in weather well below freezing. We had to start the engines by hand flipping.

We used a Zippo lighter fluid squirt can for a primer.  The engines would hit off first flip with the lighter fluid.

We used regular 25% castor oil glow fuel back then.

I did discover that flying control line planes in a snow storm was not the wisest thing I ever tried.  The snow flakes hitting on the steel wires creates static electricity. I mean like a spark plug. Remember Ben Franklin and his kite?

In more recent times, I discovered that when flying R/C in the rain that you need to keep your transmitter covered so water doesn't get in the gimbals and cause a uncontrollable crash. You can hear the rain drops hitting on the Monokote while the plane is up in the air over the sound of the engine.


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RE: coleman camp fuel (white gas) to help winter starting - 1/29/2012 8:30 PM   
moe7404


 

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Status: offline 		iam not a fuel expert. but for starting easily l look at the flash point. nitromethane 95F, methyl alcohol 52F, acetone 0F, naptha 100-107 F, gasoline -45F. thats why top fuel cars use gasoline to start nitro fuel engines. so which would you want to use for daily driving? methyl alcohol, or gasoline?

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RE: coleman camp fuel (white gas) to help winter starting - 1/30/2012 9:36 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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Petroleam Naptha flash point is well below 0 degrees F.  But above that of gasoline.  So it would be a good primer fuel in cold weather.



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RE: coleman camp fuel (white gas) to help winter starting - 2/1/2012 3:17 PM   
fctjet


 

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RE: coleman camp fuel (white gas) to help winter starting - 2/3/2012 11:54 AM   
kmeyers


 

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Status: offline 		In the winter the guys at our field all use a squirt of lighter fluid to start our glow engines. No need to put any in the fuel itself as you can easily limit air flow over the engine to keep it running at peak operating temp.

Poor fuels and high power = ugly piston top damage!

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RE: coleman camp fuel (white gas) to help winter starting - 2/29/2012 3:56 PM   
acdii


 

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Status: offline 		Lighter Fliud = Colemans. Pretty much the same thing, both are made from Naptha.

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RE: coleman camp fuel (white gas) to help winter starting - 4/27/2013 6:50 PM   
BJ64



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Status: offline 		Interesting reading.

"Colemans" down here is Propane, or Propane+Butane "power mix".

I've used it to start gas (Propane) start jet Turbines. The "gas" is used for it's fast light-off and to get things nice and glowing - then the Kerosene (paraffin, JetFuel...whatever) ramps in until the Turbine is finally running on 'Kero'.

The more modern engines these days are Kero start i.e. the glow section has a Kero heater to vapourize the fuel and initiate/sustain combustion in the burner can. Commercial RC Turbine technology has come a long way in the last 10 years or so

BJ

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RE: coleman camp fuel (white gas) to help winter starting - 4/28/2013 4:17 AM   
jessiej



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quote:

ORIGINAL: w8ye



I did discover that flying control line planes in a snow storm was not the wisest thing I ever tried.  The snow flakes hitting on the steel wires creates static electricity. I mean like a spark plug. Remember Ben Franklin and his kite?



Long ago, I was flying a C/L combat match at a contest as a thunderstorm approached. Suddenly my opponent and I began to get jolts of electricity through the handles. It didn't take us long to declare a draw and belly the planes in.

Jess



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RE: coleman camp fuel (white gas) to help winter starting - 4/29/2013 9:50 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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Status: offline 		I prefer Karo for cooking candy and deserts!

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