RE: Why should I join ?  
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RE: Why should I join ? - 9/17/2003 6:56:38 AM   
BasinBum



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JRJohn,
To your knowledge, has there ever been an rc airplane related claim to an insurance company other than the AMA when the AMA was not the secondary carrier?

Wouldn't it be an uphill battle to convince and educate them about the law and rc airplanes and how that applies to coverage after the fact? As the secondary wouldn't the AMA handle that aspect of the case for you saving you possible legal fees in fighting your carrier for coverage. I may not be as experienced as you in insurance but I've had a lot of experience with high liability businesses and a company that specializes in a particular field will serve you much better.

I think it's a heck of a lot easier to just join the AMA and I don't believe they are looking to deny coverage.

(in reply to lkaras1)
       Post #: 26

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/17/2003 7:38:30 AM   
J_R


 

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BasinBum

You are missing the point. The AMA is not an insurance company. The AMA is the insured. They are in the same position as an employer. You are provided insurance as a condition of your membership under a master policy, as is your club, and your landlord (yes, even the City of Los Angeles). Just as an employer generally does not supply the actual policy to it’s employees, but instead substitutes a general description of the coverage, the AMA does not need to supply the policy to it’s members. Apparently jrjohn is under the same misconception. I have neither the time nor the desire to educate him further. You, on the other hand, have my attention.

JR

< Message edited by J_R -- 9/16/2003 11:52:28 PM >

(in reply to BasinBum)
       Post #: 27

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/17/2003 2:29:39 PM   
P-51B



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Interesting thread.

JR,

Thanks for keeping things straight here for those of us not in the insurance racket...um I meant business

_____________________________

In order to think "outside the box", one must first accept there IS a box.

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 28

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/17/2003 4:51:54 PM   
abel_pranger


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: J_R

BasinBum

You are missing the point. The AMA is not an insurance company.
<snip>
JR


JR-
Why does AMA control the terms of coverage if it is not an insurance company?
By "terms of coverage," I refer specifically to the AMA Safety Code, which must be complied with as a condition of coverage, and which is controlled by AMA rather the entity that you recognize as an insurance company.
Frankly, I think the 'not an insurance company' argument is quibbling over semantics. The SIR is $250K, so claims up to that amount are backed by AMA reserves. Without having actual claims data available, I strongly suspect that the vast majority of them are for amounts below that threshold. In those cases AMA judges the merits of the claims and decides whether to pay or not.
I think it even the consensus of the EC is that most members join AMA for the insurance, either because they think they need it or somebody else requires that they have it before granting them access to flying sites.
Without the insurance business, AMA would probably fold.
What then is lacking from AMA's business that makes it not an insurance company?

Abel

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 29

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/17/2003 5:34:29 PM   
jrjohn


 

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J_R, you really surprise me. 40 years in the business and you didn't know what premisis liability was, Hummmmm.........

First of all I never called the AMA an insurance company. please copy and paste where I said that. They do however hold the master policy, they are the people that make all the decisions about the insurance, we the clubs and members are who their decisions effect. Clubs and Members pay the AMA We have the right to know what we have bought. The AMA is or only contact, they need to send us a copy of the insurance policy so we may ascess our liabilities and structure our club accordingly.

Thanks for using my line about me not wanting to educate you. I'll take that as a compliment.

To the readers.... Throughout life you will always have people telling you what you can and can't do. They usually have an ulterior motive for their position. Don't let anybody define your abilities to accomplish a particular task or goal. Only when we ask questions, only when we reach out and look for a better way will we truly have a chance to go foreword. Our country was founded on this spirit.

when somebody has so many reasons why something can't be done, even going to the extent of taking words out of context or showing so much hatred for a new Idea they loose the ability to think with an open mind. I know it's difficult sometimes in life to accept change, new ideas or concepts are often difficult to digest. Many people take the path of least resistance. Unfortunate indeed, as they are like a ship without a sail, drifting wherever the wind blows them.

The AMA needs to get a copy of the Insurance policy to each club. We modelers are not as dumb as J_r wants you to think, we can read, and if we can't we will have the option to find somebody who can. Manuscript or not, just send it out, or put it on the internet whats the big secret ??

Accordinging to the AMA they have not sent a policy to each club, where did you get that info?? Please J_R before you make spacific statements make sure they are accurate.

John

(in reply to BasinBum)
       Post #: 30

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/17/2003 6:09:46 PM   
J_R


 

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Able

To do business in a state, an insurance company MUST be certified in that state. In CA that process takes place through the office of the Insurance Commissioner. That alone makes it illegal for the AMA to SELL insurance here, or in most states. Since I do not know the law in every state, I can not say all states. This difference is one of the concerns of activating a captive and the reason it must be a separate corporation.

This thread has turned into a legal discussion as opposed to one that discusses the fact that insurance is the engine that drives the AMA. Look upon the AMA as paying the deductible of $250,000 for it's members claims. Although technically legally not correct, the concept is correct. The Safety Code is factored into the rates the AMA pays for insurance by excluding certain actions. That is why you and I, EC and a bunch of other people keep an eye on the Safety Code.

In discussing the coverage on forums such as this, NORMALLY, it makes little difference if the AMA is VIEWED as being an insurance company. Yes, it is semantics and of little practical difference unless used in a legal debate, which is what this turned into. Legallly, things like a "site certificate" have a very different meaning than a "site policy". They are related back to the manuscript policy which jrjohn is going to explain to all.

JR

(in reply to abel_pranger)
       Post #: 31

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/17/2003 6:12:08 PM   
MustangFan



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Well ... let's see here ...

quote
"I know of several claims paid by the AMA"
several .... 170,000+ members and several claims !
170,000 times $58 = almost 10 million dollars per year ... and several claims.
They don't have an insurance policy to share with us that states the coverage?
We must pay $5 if they procure a copy "for us" 170000 time $5 = $850,000

Soooooo ... We don't really know what our $10 million dollars are for.
Maybe the person that said Expensive buildings, Health Care for Muncie, Retirement, Cars, Lunch's, Trips, Golf, and other benefits for the few is correct.

They are working in "Our Best Interest" ... and the world is flat .. correct?

But ... Just pay the $58 , get our cards, and enjoy the hobby. Somewhere, somehow, I'm sure the AMA does something ... but if it's not doing insurance, do we need them?
But if people have been trying since the 1970's to change the AMA unsuccessfully, what can we really expect.
Remember ... the officers and such are NOT experts at some of the things they get involved in (such as insurance), they are hobbyist or 'volunteers" ... so they will need to hire the experts, then expenses rise for all the activities. Let's get a detailed accounting of the expenses and see what our $10 million buys us.

But in the meantime, we will just let them say " we do more for you than insurance" without adequate proof, pay our $58 to get the unspecified insurance (warm fuzzy), fly our "Toys", and have fun. All the while being criticized that "WE" do not care enough for "Our" organization.

If we didn't use our toys, then the AMA wouldn't exist .... correct?

jrJohn ... your allowed your opinion just like J_R. Doesn't appear like anyone connected to the AMA has the whole story ... and the AMA isn't talking!

P.S. our club sends the AMA over $13,000 per year.

< Message edited by MustangFan -- 9/17/2003 1:26:56 PM >


_____________________________

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(in reply to lkaras1)
       Post #: 32

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/17/2003 6:19:10 PM   
Roby


 

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Simple..............for the most part,you have to if you want to join
a club and fly at that facility, or particiapate in most local events.

Seems strange that when I shoot my bow ,use my R/C boats and cars,
shoot darts,fly my kite,ride my go-cart.or launching rockets I don't have to join anything.
but as soon as I have a model airplane in the air ......look out !

A good example "might be" when I play,(not often now)baseball.
As a good short stop,it's my job to get the ball to 1st as quickly as
soon possible, so I rocket the ball as best I can for the out.
Think about that.....I am throwing a hard device as hard as I can
on the hopes that ,1 the other guys catches it and 2, I don't hit the runner.
I suppose it could be considered a bit more of a risk than the park flyer
I use that some are convinced "needs coverage"

If 58 bucks gets the job done,then so be it ,it will never end as long
as we are caught up in our underware.

Roby

Roby

(in reply to lkaras1)
       Post #: 33

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/17/2003 6:33:11 PM   
J_R


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jrjohn

J_R, you really surprise me. 40 years in the business and you didn't know what premisis liability was, Hummmmm.........

First of all I never called the AMA an insurance company. please copy and paste where I said that. They do however hold the master policy, they are the people that make all the decisions about the insurance, we the clubs and members are who their decisions effect. Clubs and Members pay the AMA We have the right to know what we have bought. The AMA is or only contact, they need to send us a copy of the insurance policy so we may ascess our liabilities and structure our club accordingly.

Thanks for using my line about me not wanting to educate you. I'll take that as a compliment.

To the readers.... Throughout life you will always have people telling you what you can and can't do. They usually have an ulterior motive for their position. Don't let anybody define your abilities to accomplish a particular task or goal. Only when we ask questions, only when we reach out and look for a better way will we truly have a chance to go foreword. Our country was founded on this spirit.

when somebody has so many reasons why something can't be done, even going to the extent of taking words out of context or showing so much hatred for a new Idea they loose the ability to think with an open mind. I know it's difficult sometimes in life to accept change, new ideas or concepts are often difficult to digest. Many people take the path of least resistance. Unfortunate indeed, as they are like a ship without a sail, drifting wherever the wind blows them.

The AMA needs to get a copy of the Insurance policy to each club. We modelers are not as dumb as J_r wants you to think, we can read, and if we can't we will have the option to find somebody who can. Manuscript or not, just send it out, or put it on the internet whats the big secret ??

Accordinging to the AMA they have not sent a policy to each club, where did you get that info?? Please J_R before you make spacific statements make sure they are accurate.

John


First, my reply was to BasinBum with reference to realizing that the AMA is an insurance company, and I stated you were APPARENTLY under the same misconception. I deduced that from your repeated statements that the AMA had a DUTY to send out a copy of the master policy. You seem to have backed down from that position.

Now, as far as access to the policy, I agree. I have asked several people at the AMA, in the past, to have Carl do two things. One is to publish the policy in the member's only section on the AMA web site and the other is to have him write and publish a FAQ with all the questions that come up again and again on fourms such as this, about the coverage. It seems that doing so would allivate concerns for folks such as you and I. On the other hand, I can see the need to charge $5 for a copy of the policy if it is mailed out. That probably does not cover the time and materials to make the copies. If there is actual resistence to these ideas, I have not found it amoung the people I contacted. It just does not get done.

jrjohn, I also see that you are sliding toward making this personal and attacking. It might be wiser to do the research and find out what a manusctipt policy is and explain it to everyone. You might learn something. You certainly seem to be backwatering on your claims. I still have not seen any quotes from you on comprable coverage. You still have not explained what you would do with claims that exceed your personal coverage. It's easy enough to say "this is the way to do it" and it is quite another to be able to back it up.

Oh... has it occured to you that "premisis coverage" might be a local term to your area? That was the reason that I asked exactly what you meant in using it.

JR

(in reply to jrjohn)
       Post #: 34

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/17/2003 6:51:27 PM   
MustangFan



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J_R
Who threw the first stone. (Not personal, but it takes two to have an argument)

I have read many post on RCU, and it seems like a few people think that their opinion and/or information is the best and only.

We want proof ... not speculation.
There seems to be little proof, but many auguments built on what we want things to be not what they are. Seems to be an american thing right now ... I call it MBA jargon. No real evidence, just speculation and quaint sayings.

Input ... more input ( Johny Five in Short Circuit )

_____________________________

Thats Just My Opinion - I Could Be Wrong ( Dennis Miller )

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 35

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/17/2003 7:06:09 PM   
J_R


 

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Dennis (MustangFan)

If you really want to know how the money is spent, go to the Member's Only section on the AMA site and look at the Financal Statement. It is there. It also get published, piecemeal, in Model Aviation Magazine.

Be careful in making claims in this forum. Anything that is ambigious will draw attention. Your claim that your club pays the AMA $13000 a year is a good example. If what you meant to say was the members OF YOUR CLUB pay that amount in individual dues, it is not the same thing. Your club sends the AMA less than $200 per year. The casual reader in this forum takes everything at face value.

The AMA is talking. If you really have a question about insurance, call Carl Maroney and talk to him at AMA HQ.

Now my turn.. a question for you. What do you mean when you say "But if people have been trying since the 1970's to change the AMA unsuccessfully, what can we really expect." I see that again and again, and no one ever explains what it is that they want to see changed or what they percieve did not change. What people? What changes? What attempts were made and how?

JR

(in reply to MustangFan)
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RE: Why should I join ? - 9/17/2003 7:18:41 PM   
Mike in DC


 

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I agree, interesting thread. Since we have, from my point of view anyway, two insurance experts, I have a question:

Our club officers recently decided to get something which I (not an insurance expert) will call "club officer insurance". In light of their homeowner coverage + the second form of AMA coverage that J_R describes, does this seem necessary? Or is everybody a little paranoid these days? I think it was something like $700 per year for all the officers, I don't know the policy limit.

(I'm not judging them, I'm sure they had good reasons, I'm just curious about other opinions.)

(in reply to lkaras1)
       Post #: 37

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/17/2003 7:26:21 PM   
J_R


 

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Roby

I know this will draw another shot or two at CA, and maybe rightfully so, but.. what happens in CA has a way of working it's way around the country.

I had to jion an archery club to use my bow. My crossbow has to be registered with the sate as an assault weapon. In my community, there is an ordinance prohibiting ANY RC device in a park, the school district has done the same. Go-karts are illegal almost everywhere except on tracks or private property. You can't even take them out in the desert and run them (environmental damage to the snake trails, I guess). Carrying a bat to the park is illegal. It to is an assualt weapon, as are the weights women hold in their hands when they go for a walk. Once there, I guess they still let you play baseball with the bat. Model Rockets are prohibited almost everywhere (fire danger and liability). We do still get to play darts or fly a kite. Isn't that wonderful? So... it's not just model planes here, it's almost everything that you have to pay to do, in some way.

See what you have to look forward too?

JR

(in reply to Roby)
       Post #: 38

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/17/2003 7:49:11 PM   
J_R


 

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Mike in DC

First, let me clear something up. I an not an insurance expert. I know something about some very limited areas. The only "experts" on the AMA policy are the agent that sold it to the AMA, the insurance company itself, and Carl Maroney. I hate to admit that even Carl does not know everything there is to know about the policy.

Part of the answer to your question is a question. Is your club incorporated? If not, it is probably prudent to have the policy. If it is incorporated, the AMA has dropped some coverage for clubs, i.e. slander and libel, as well as not abiding by club by-laws (particularly in the area of expelling members without due process). Depending on the nature of your club, such insurance still might be wise. Only your club can make that decision.

The fact that half of the claims are non-model related "trip and fall" claims makes a lot of people edgy, me included.

JR

(in reply to Mike in DC)
       Post #: 39