RE: Why should I join ?

RE: Why should I join ?
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RE: Why should I join ? - 9/18/2003 8:39:57 PM

MustangFan

Posts: 586
Joined: 3/25/2003
From: Canton, MI, USA
Status: offline

Let's just suppose the AMA didn't provide insurance anymore and said you are on your own. How many clubs would stay with them for the "other benefits". Hmmmmmmmm

jonkoppish said what is iterated over and over again. The AMA is an Insurance Provider. Strength in numbers hopefully gets us a cheaper rate ..... Does it ???

What if they don't post their Insurance coverage because it's not that good and they know it. Then they would have to sell us on the perception that they are not just an insurance provider but much more .... you get all this, but wait there's more ... havn't we heard this enough on TV?

If we must speculate on what insurance coverage we have, aren't we allowed to speculate on why they won't tell us???

As always we will let the people decide ( Bill O'Rielly - The O'Reilly Factor )

_____________________________

Thats Just My Opinion - I Could Be Wrong ( Dennis Miller )

(in reply to J_R)

Post #: 76

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/18/2003 11:15:45 PM

lkaras1

Posts: 33
Joined: 6/10/2003
From: Argos, IN,
Status: online

See this is what I mean. The good and bad . Who do you belive ?

I will probbaly join just so I can fly with other people. Im in the middle of nowhere so I can fly anywhere really but its no fun.

(in reply to J_R)

Post #: 77

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/18/2003 11:49:09 PM

Gordon Mc

Posts: 6747
Joined: 1/30/2002
From: San Jose, CA,
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MustangFan
No $58 bucks is not a lot of money for each of us, we just want it spent responsibly. The members deserve that.

Very well said.

I never have understood the reasoning of some people who seem to take the approach of "It's not much money, so you aren't entitled to question how it's used". If $58 per year is not enough to allow members to question how their money is spent, just how much is ? $158 per year ? $580 per year ? Can someone please tell me where the threshold is, that permits members to ask how the money is being used, without some others trying to dismiss them as cheapskates ? (BTW, I'm not referring just to posts in this thread, but to the numerous other threads like this that crop up on a regular basis)

Also, for those who think the amount is too small to warrant anyone asking how it is being used ... then (purely hypothetically, so don't start jumping to conclusions) how would you feel if you later found out that 5% of the monies collected by the AMA were used for model avaiation purposes, and the other 95% was used to support some AMA official's drug habit, or was donated to fund terrorism, etc ? Would you still say "Heck - it's only $58 bucks, so it doesn't matter what they use it for ?" Yeah - I know that that's an extreme hypothetical case, but sometimes you have to take an argument to it's extremes to see whether it makes sense. As far as I am concerned, people have a right to ask how their money will be used, and in the end their probing may benefit us all by keeping the AMA aware that it needs to be accountable to the membership.

In my case, I would gladly pay more than the $58 per year, if the AMA provided services that I felt warranted it. Right now, I'm not convinced that they do, but I live in eternal hope of improved insurance coverage, better flying site support, etc.

Later,
Gordon

_____________________________

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley
"He who establishes his argument by noise and command shows that his reason is weak." - Michel de Montaigne

(in reply to MustangFan)

Post #: 78

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/19/2003 12:13:38 AM

J_R

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
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Gordon Mc

Why don't you know how the money is spent?

JR

(in reply to Gordon Mc)

Post #: 79

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/19/2003 12:40:40 AM

Hossfly

Posts: 3850
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: New Caney, TX, USA
Status: offline

quote:

I never have understood the reasoning of some people who seem to take the approach of "It's not much money, so you aren't entitled to question how it's used". If $58 per year is not enough to allow members to question how their money is spent, just how much is ? $158 per year ? $580 per year ? Can someone please tell me where the threshold is, that permits members to ask how the money is being used, without some others trying to dismiss them as cheapskates ?

Your AMA dues were raised $10 for the year 2003 and until they will be raised again.
I have questioned this one item several times on the forums and also from AMA. NO ONE will address the question other than JR who runs and sticks his nose into the HISTORICAL documents called auditor's report, which is, IMO, about as valuable as the last toilet flush. Makes for a temporary good feeling but the same old stuff will come back again.

Now look at an issue of "Model Aviation" for 2003 after about the Mar. issue. (Any issue prepared in 2003)
Look on page 6 in the fine print on the lower left first paragraph beginning with "Model Aviation..." At the end of that paragraph you are informed, "$18 of the dues are for the subscription." Now look at a 2002 issue of MA and you find that figure was $12.

Regardless of how Holland thumbs his PAID-HELP OUTSIDE-AUDITOR's reports, SIX, that is 6, dollars of your $10 dues increase (SIXTY PERCENT) was allocated to the magazine which is now more colorful, and more of a carnival so Mr. Hunt can present his ideas of how a magazine should be done, from his home rather than in the office.

Insurance is not AMA's problem. Insurance makes a good shield for all that is going on otherwise. Until I have an opportunity to find out -- other than being told by someone -- I will never be sitting on the perch squawking, "Slip and Slide, Slip and Slide." If I am not afforded that opportunity then so be it. If I am afforded that opportunity and I find myself wrong, then I will be the first to say so.

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(in reply to Gordon Mc)

Post #: 80

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/19/2003 1:01:44 AM

David Cutler

Posts: 2163
Joined: 9/13/2002
From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Status: offline

quote:

Im in the middle of nowhere so I can fly anywhere really but its no fun.

I think you have touched on another reason why anybody joins anything. Some would say the real reason.

Why do you think people join fan clubs of sports teams? Do they sing at a game because they think their fan club dues have been spent wisely, or that their team's players are that bit better off as a result ? Nope, they sing because they get a lot out of being proud to be associated with their team. If, say, a Lakers fan met another Lakers fan in Rome, do you think they'd feel good because they have met somebody else who has contributed some money to their cause? Nope, they would feel good because they have met somebody else with their interests at heart.

I was at the show in Pasadena earlier this year, and saw a man buying his young son membership to the AMA. The boy was beaming all over his face. almost certainly because he had suddenly become a member of something he enjoyed. He'd really arrived. I can assure you he didn't do it because he could get millions in insurance, or entry into a competition.

Nobody here has yet mentioned that reason for joining. Its because of the pleasure derived from being a member of a club, gang, group, team, whatever you want to call it, that you approve of.

You can analyse where that money goes to until the cows come home, but it won't change the fact that we, like golf club members (who largely pay a fortune to 'play' in the 19th hole, not the other 18), or big sports club members who take a perverse pleasure in paying over the odds for a colored T shirt, (if it's the right color!) are creatures who take pleasure in belonging to a crowd with similar interests. Don't you remember the first time you got your driving license? Did you want to show it to everybody because the admin costs you paid to get it were a good deal?

The definition of a cynic is they know the price of everything, but the value of nothing. Cynics spend their time analysing where their money went.

I am a member, and gladly pay the tiny fee because I like to be associated with other RC flyers. They're a nice bunch.

David C.

(in reply to lkaras1)

Post #: 81

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/19/2003 1:16:33 AM

J_R

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline

Hi Gordon

It looks as though the punch line to my question is out.

The AMA Financial Report is in the AMA Member's Only Section. It is for the most current year.. 2002. along with the prior year, 2001 for reference. The only way to have a more current audited statement would be to have a crystal ball. Some have admitted to not being accountants. To some of them, the figures have no meaning. Marc, the President of RCU, asked a Financial Analyst to make a review of the 2001 Financial Statement last year. The result of that was published here on RCU. With the changeover, it may be necessary for you to ask Marc for it's current location. If, on the other hand, you have ever had accounting 101, you can probably make sense of the 2002 document on the AMA site. It is really not that difficult if you have even a basic understanding of accounting and you already know that accounting is an historical endeavor.

While you are there, take a look at the costs and expenses of Model Aviation Magazine. MA is exclusively owned by AMA. If you notice on p. 6 that was pointed to in a prior post, you will find a statement to that effect. Simply, it makes no difference at all which pocket you put your own money in, as long as it is all yours, and can be accessed as needed. I am relatively certain that you are aware of that concept, but, it does seem to be lost on some.

Perhaps those that have access to a crystal ball, that looks at the future, might want to use it to determine what the statement for 2003 will look like, after the year is over, and share the vision with us now. Some seem to think the EC is in possession of such a device. I assure you they are not.

JR

< Message edited by J_R -- 9/18/2003 5:17:45 PM >

(in reply to J_R)

Post #: 82

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/19/2003 1:24:24 AM

jrjohn

Posts: 2279
Joined: 1/9/2002
From: stevens point, WI, USA
Status: offline

quote:

Your AMA dues were raised $10 for the year 2003 and until they will be raised again.
I have questioned this one item several times on the forums and also from AMA. NO ONE will address the question other than JR who runs and sticks his nose into the HISTORICAL documents called auditor's report, which is, IMO, about as valuable as the last toilet flush. Makes for a temporary good feeling but the same old stuff will come back again.

nicely put Gordon. Here is my opinion. 99% of people know just about nothing about Insurance. If the insurance company, agent, or sponsor can keep it that way, it's all in their favor. Why? Its called fear. You put fear into people, tell them what is going to happen to them (one in ten million chance of it happening) but you make it sound like it will. Then you tell them what they need which isn't always true, and then you sell it to them.

You see Gordon, they like dumb people, people that don't ask questions and just do what they are told. "just send us the money and you will be ok" "I'd send you a copy of the policy, but you wouldn't understand it". They think were stupid! Call the AMA once and talk to somebody like your a new perspective member. They will tell you right away how much you need the insurance. They don't tell you that your homeowners coverage will more than likely pay any claim you have WORLDWIDE! and no restrictions on where your flying. Yes thats right, you don't have to be at an AMA field, heck you can be flying in a farmers field if you like.

Oh but don't worry, they will tell you more about your AMA insurance the day you have a claim, thats the day you learn what you have. You learn your insurance is secondary. you will also learn if there are any exclusions that make your situation not covered. Personally I kinda like to know ahead of time.

Today I was delivering a FarmOwners policy to a local dairy farmer. Just for the heck of it I opened the policy and read the Section ll liability. I had to laugh even the farmer is covered for model airplanes. His liability limit was 500,000. He like many others feels perfectly comfortable driving his tractor, manure spreader, ect ....down the road. Dont you just love those sloooooow mooooving farm vehicles! I can't imagine needing 2 million dollars worth of coverage for flying a model, if your on the road with your farm equipment and carry 500,000 for that peril.

As long as they can keep the fear in modelers, as long as they can keep you dumb it's really in their favor.

I'm not dumb and I'm not happy about what they are doing.

John

(in reply to Hossfly)

Post #: 83

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/19/2003 1:31:08 AM

David Cutler

Posts: 2163
Joined: 9/13/2002
From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Status: offline

quote:

[You see Gordon, they like dumb people, people that don't ask questions and just do what they are told

Referring to who?

Well, that sentence has written off hundreds of thousands of people in one go.

-David C.

< Message edited by David Cutler -- 9/18/2003 8:33:25 PM >

(in reply to jrjohn)

Post #: 84

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/19/2003 1:58:29 AM

David Cutler

Posts: 2163
Joined: 9/13/2002
From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Status: offline

quote:

I can't imagine needing 2 million dollars worth of coverage for flying a model,

I think you'll find the premium for 2 million isn't going to be much more than one for half a million. Insurance is all a matter of actuarial risk, and the risk of having to pay out, say, 100K is hugely more than having to pay out 2 million.

Let's see what we are really talking about here.

I'm sure it's not the full $58 that people are moaning about, as even the tightest person would concede it isn't going to be free. Maybe, say, $38 is a fair figure? If that's the case then we are really talking about $20 being the excess figure.

This must be about the most talked about $20 in the history of the leisure industry!

-David C.

(in reply to jrjohn)

Post #: 85

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/19/2003 2:28:27 AM

Gordon Mc

Posts: 6747
Joined: 1/30/2002
From: San Jose, CA,
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: J_R
Gordon Mc

Why don't you know how the money is spent?

G'day J_R - long time no chat...

Actually, I was not complaining that I do not know how the money is/was spent - I was simply standing up for the right of people to inquire what they get for their money without being put down by those who seem to think that it is somehow sacriligious to ask.

Gordon

_____________________________

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley
"He who establishes his argument by noise and command shows that his reason is weak." - Michel de Montaigne

(in reply to J_R)

Post #: 86

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/19/2003 2:48:31 AM

J_R

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gordon Mc

quote:

ORIGINAL: J_R
Gordon Mc

Why don't you know how the money is spent?

G'day J_R - long time no chat...

Actually, I was not complaining that I do not know how the money is/was spent - I was simply standing up for the right of people to inquire what they get for their money without being put down by those who seem to think that it is somehow sacriligious to ask.

Gordon

I am in agreement. I will take some of the credit or blame in this case. I submitted to the Publications Committee the suggestion that the Financial Statement be added to the items in the Member's Only section. In a matter of days, the idea was approved and it was put there. For all I know, the idea was already in the works. As I have often said in the AMA Discussion Forum, the only stupid question is one that is not asked.

I do get upset sometimes when the information is available and I even supply a link to it and it is not read, yet the rants continue. It sometimes appears that people would rather vent and post bs then to get the answers to the questions they asked.

I am not referring to you, Gordon, and I am not talking about the actual insurance policy, which I do believe should be in the Member's Only section as well.

I do believe that most members will not read it, or if they do, will not understand it. If Carl would produce a FAQ to go along with the posting of the policy, it would go a long ways to a better understanding of the coverage.

JR

< Message edited by J_R -- 9/18/2003 6:49:28 PM >

(in reply to Gordon Mc)

Post #: 87

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/19/2003 5:18:04 AM

mongo

Posts: 1224
Joined: 12/5/2001
From: Midland, Republic of TEXAS, TX, USA
Status: offline

one thing that any well run organization will have, is an estimated budget for the current operating year. what some have refered to as a crystal ball that