RE: Why should I join ?  
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RE: Why should I join ? - 9/21/2003 6:30:05 PM   
David Cutler



Posts: 2163
Joined: 9/13/2002
From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Status: offline 		I will quote myself in a previous message to you:-

quote:

you seemed to know a lot about the subject of AMA arranged insurance, and therefore I was taking note of your comments, as they might benefit me. I'm sure others were too.


How is that insulting you enough to be so belligerent?

Choose your opponents more wisely.

-David C.

(in reply to jrjohn)
       Post #: 126

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/21/2003 8:35:12 PM   
SAPropbuster



Posts: 206
Joined: 3/7/2002
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Ahem,


_____________________________

Bob Severance

(in reply to lkaras1)
       Post #: 127

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/21/2003 9:36:10 PM   
SAPropbuster



Posts: 206
Joined: 3/7/2002
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Sorry, didn't think my 'post reply' was working....it does now.
Didn't mean to interupt.
Just testing.....................
BUT, tried to reply to you David, but now my PM doesn't work...



_____________________________

Bob Severance

(in reply to lkaras1)
       Post #: 128

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/21/2003 10:37:07 PM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		Hmmn. On review, you have a point.

In your first post you stated that: "The they told me that when they do get a copy, we will have to pay 5 bucks to get a copy even though we paid the premium for this contract. The AMA could be in for a little surprise if they don't start handing out copies of the insurance contract to each of it's policy holders."

This is a pretty obvious statement that you believed that the AMA is an insurance company. I will admit to having some experience with AMA renewals through the years. I have never recieved a statement for an insurance premium and was very surprised that you had.

Then later you said: "How many clubs have ever received a policy from the AMA for their Premises liability?"

Here again, you state that the AMA is issuing policies, again implying that it is an insurance company.

Then, after I make you aware that the AMA is not an insurance company, you start to change your tune, posting this: "First of all I never called the AMA an insurance company. please copy and paste where I said that. They do however hold the master policy, they are the people that make all the decisions about the insurance, we the clubs and members are who their decisions effect. Clubs and Members pay the AMA We have the right to know what we have bought. The AMA is or only contact, they need to send us a copy of the insurance policy so we may ascess our liabilities and structure our club accordingly."

I tired to get you to do some research. Some of it might have been insteresting to you. From a professional point of view, a manuscript policy should have piqued your interest. But no. Then I tried to get you to look at some of the information the AMA does publish, in the form of the Club Recharter Kit. But no. Then I try to head you to the Financial Statement. Once again, no interest on your part. If you had bothered to look you would find that the cost per member for insurance is something on the order of $5 per member plus the SIR which is something on the order of $8.

You entirely ignored a post by another on this thread stating that his club was paying $700 per year, just for liability coverage for the officers of the club. Not the club, not the landlord. That is at the same time you claim to be able to get coverage for the club and the landlord for $300 per year. You never did post the limits of that policy quote, although asked to.

You left us with this: "I've done all the talking I can without more information."

I can go on with the many inconsistancies of your posts, but... why?

Personally, I just learned something new. You had me believing that you had something worth saying. I learned that I can still be had.

Perhaps experience tells us Old Boys not be believe everything that is posted. I keep learning the same lesson, over and over.

JR

(in reply to jrjohn)
       Post #: 129

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/22/2003 12:41:08 AM   
zxcv11



Posts: 380
Joined: 9/11/2003
From: Glenshaw, PA, USA
Status: offline 		JR...I am really confused by this answer to my post from u....

quote:

5. No insult intended, but, insurance policies are not easy to read or understand. Given enough time and desire, you might well be able to understand it, but... why?

...are you really asking why I would want to read my own insurance policy?? I know you are not intending to be insulting, as you've stated, but I think it is insulting to tell someone you don't know from boo, that they probably wouldn't understand something. Don't you agree that this is somewhat of an elitist and condescending attitude to take? And if the ama has millions of dollars, could they not hire someone that could break down these terms(exclusions, special instances, ect..) point by point to the uneducated masses
I have a big interest in this issue. I think it's pretty clear that regardless of what the ama, or anyone else for that matter,claims that it "is" or "isn't" , that insurance is the biggie ...'top o' the list' reason to join. (OK...the mag....but If I want a mag...I order 1...I don't join a club )

I also don't understand this....
quote:

Then later you said: "How many clubs have ever received a policy from the AMA for their Premises liability?"
Here again, you state that the AMA is issuing policies, again implying that it is an insurance company.
Then, after I make you aware that the AMA is not an insurance company....


OK....I understand that the ama themselves are not an insurance co., but they sure make that the main reason for clubs to join in their charter!! Actually, the first 3 reasons. It is also the top 5 services they list in the individual member benefits section of their site. If it is such a highlight of membership as it seem to be, then one would expect that it would be pertinent to know everything that one could about coverage?? Right??
Thanx for your input.

Brian

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 130

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/22/2003 3:02:15 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		Hi Brian

As I have posted, I think it is a good idea for the AMA to post the policy where every member of the AMA has the opportunity to see the policy. If anyone wants to wade through it, that's great. Personally, I would not take the time. I suspect it is a huge document, although I have never seen it. I would rather rely on what is represented to me about the policy, and, when I have a specific question, ask.

Trying to transform a legal document to plain English is probably not forthcoming. One attorneys opinion is another attorneys grounds for a lawsuit.

I stated in an earlier post that the insurance is the engine that drives the AMA. Although the AMA is many things, anyone that argues that insurance is not important is kidding themselves. It is, undoubtedly, the prime reason that clubs chose to charter with the AMA. I hope none of my previous posts led anyone to believe that insurance is not important. Let me give you an analogy of the importance of insurance. Have you ever known anyone that made the decision of which company to go to work for, based on the insurance coverage? I have.

JR

(in reply to zxcv11)
       Post #: 131

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/22/2003 5:15:25 AM   
David Cutler



Posts: 2163
Joined: 9/13/2002
From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Personally, I would not take the time. I suspect it is a huge document, although I have never seen it. I would rather rely on what is represented to me about the policy, and, when I have a specific question, ask.


At the risk of being called an insurance moron again (not by you!) I wholeheartedly agree with you. IMHO there has been too much talk about insurance policies being only half a step away from rocket science and we should all be paranoid about the conditions and exceptions.

Of course we all have to be careful, but I suspect all those reading this have an adequate number of brain cells to use, and I still say, in my ignorance, that there is ample information freely available from AMA to make a decision about the insurance they arrange. It's a contract; nothing more, nothing less, and we have to remember there are much more complicated ones to worry about in other walks of our lives.

Jeez! this must be about the most talked about $58 since I paid about that for my first car!

Now, tell me, does this policy work on Thursdays too? I want that written down in six languages before I even consider spending a cent of my hard earned money.

-David C.

p.s How about Fridays? I haven't seen it written anywhere that Fridays aren't excluded. Does this mean they are excluded?

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 132

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/22/2003 7:30:01 AM   
zxcv11



Posts: 380
Joined: 9/11/2003
From: Glenshaw, PA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

As I have posted, I think it is a good idea for the AMA to post the policy where every member of the AMA has the opportunity to see the policy. If anyone wants to wade through it, that's great. Personally, I would not take the time. I suspect it is a huge document, although I have never seen it. I would rather rely on what is represented to me about the policy, and, when I have a specific question, ask.


I agree...it should be posted, and if you don't want to look at it , then so be it, but then you at least have the opportunity to do so if you so desire. I personally have never been one to just go along with what any organization just represents to me in general (be it local gov., national, ect.)

quote:

Trying to transform a legal document to plain English is probably not forthcoming. One attorneys opinion is another attorneys grounds for a lawsuit


Well doesn't that stink!!(and is the truth!!) I wish is wasn't so.....<sigh>so how do we ever get anything straight??

quote:

Jeez! this must be about the most talked about $58 since I paid about that for my first car!

Now, tell me, does this policy work on Thursdays too? I want that written down in six languages before I even consider spending a cent of my hard earned money.

-David C.

p.s How about Fridays? I haven't seen it written anywhere that Fridays aren't excluded. Does this mean they are excluded?

I'm sorry if I'm boring you, or aggravating you by my questions on this matter. Your sarcastic tone signifies that you might be feed up with this matter. But as I said, I am interested in this matter, and find these forums the Proper place to discuss these matters. No one is forcing you to read this thread, are they??
And as to the $58 issue. I realize that this has been kicked around quite a lot in this thread. Sorry guys, but to a new post-collegent schmoo in this economy...58 bucks CAN be a bit of cash. Sure, its not going to completely break your bank, but if I save that up 2X and a bit, I can get that brand new P-51 Mustang I've had my eye on!!!
So...for all the 'silent majority' of poor college students (who LOVE this hobby, and wouldn't trade it for the world)to whom 58 bucks might be spent on a few servos, or used to buy lots 'o spare balsa ...I say that it might be "OK" to question exactly what your getting into with the investment!!


Thank you for your opinions on this matter JR.

Brian

(in reply to David Cutler)
       Post #: 133

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/22/2003 7:36:40 AM   
zxcv11



Posts: 380
Joined: 9/11/2003
From: Glenshaw, PA, USA
Status: offline 		...and thanx to jrjohn too, for asking questions,and getting me thinking about all of this in the first place.
And of course....to lkaras1, for asking the main question in the first place!!

Brian

(in reply to lkaras1)
       Post #: 134

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/22/2003 8:47:40 AM   
zxcv11



Posts: 380
Joined: 9/11/2003
From: Glenshaw, PA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

I would rather rely on what is represented to me about the policy, and, when I have a specific question, ask.


geeze JR... I just got done reading the posting Election_games_have_begun
And you suggest that I just rely on, and believe what these people represent to me about a policy, let alone one as important as this??!!
Doesn't sound from your postings on that thread that you really do yourself??

Brian

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 135

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/22/2003 2:34:51 PM   
David Cutler



Posts: 2163
Joined: 9/13/2002
From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

I'm sorry if I'm boring you, or aggravating you by my questions on this matter. Your sarcastic tone signifies that you might be feed up with this matter. But as I said, I am interested in this matter, and find these forums the Proper place to discuss these matters. No one is forcing you to read this thread, are they??


Hi Brian,

I was trying (obviously badly!) to inject some humor in this thread. It surely needed it!

I fully appreciate the value of the information here myself. It's invaluable.

Which is the reason I contributed this earlier:-

quote:

This thread has got a bit heated on occasion, but was, IMHO extremely worthwhile and thought provoking.

There can't be many hobbies or sports where the whole process is enjoyed by the participants (at the risk of bringing up the ARF vs Scratch building question again!) and people are keen to contribute their own opinions


and, my attempts earlier to answer the original question directly:-

quote:



Why join?

1/ To pay for the magazine.
2/ To pay insurance premiums.
3/ To finance the representations made by the AMA to bodies like the FCC so we can actually fly. We'd all look a but silly with our planes worth hundreds or thousands, with no frequency band to use.
4/ To show you are a member of a great hobby.


I've certainly learned something from it.

I am sorry if I offended you.

-David C.

< Message edited by David Cutler -- 9/22/2003 10:21:11 AM >

(in reply to zxcv11)
       Post #: 136

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/22/2003 3:32:20 PM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		Brian

Your absolutely correct. I do not trust anyone at face value. Trust is something that must be earned. I have spent a considerable amount of time forming my opinions about people. Although there are those who say that I am a blind AMA supporter, that is simply not true. Of course, there are others who say I am an AMA basher. If you read enough of the threads in this forum, you will see that I very much trust most of the AMA leaders. There are a couple that I would like to see replaced.

In the case of the insurance and Carl Maroney, I have developed trust in them over a long period of time.

When I feel there are questions about the leadership, or their decisions, I say so. NO ONE is perfect, not the EC and NOT ME. Errors are made. They tend to correct the errors and most have the best interest of the membership at heart. This is a view I have not always held. Like reading the insurance and understanding it, getting to know the leaders and developing relationships is something any AMA member can do.

JR

(in reply to zxcv11)
       Post #: 137

RE: Why should I join ? - 9/22/2003 4:43:06 PM   
zxcv11



Posts: 380
Joined: 9/11/2003
From: Glenshaw, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Mr. Cutler....no offence taken Actually it was I who indeed thought you were offended!! Your points on joining are well made, and I thank you for them.

JR.....true, true, true. I have notice that you can be on both sides of the fence at times, which is one reason why I think I might be starting to trust you on some of these matters. You seem to want what is best for the hobby and its patrons.

Thanx,
Your poor(but still lookin at that 'stang ) correspondant
Brian

PS-Hey guys...is it just me....or is there some kind of weird Tx vs. Cali. thing going on here??!! It seems mighty strange how that seems to work out sometimes in the us/them catagory on these forums....LOL

< Message edited by zxcv11 -- 9/22/2003 11:59:21 AM >

(in reply to J_R)