Oldbob

>>>>This thread had a turn about in it's outcome. The original title has been changed by the moderator to remove the first word "Bad". Later the original poster determined that his fuel was not bad after all. But the thread discusses Powermaster and nitromethane as well as other problems with model fuels. Please read this thread with the final outcome in mind that the fuel in question was not bad - so the thread has been left intact. <<<<<

Bad PowerMaster fuel.
Here, in the Austin TX area, bad PM fuel is showing up at several of the hobby shops. The first two instances of bad fuel came from the same hobby shop and the fuel cans had the same batch number on them. PowerMaster was contacted but with no satisfaction. This was about three months ago. The other day another club member showed up at the field with a new can of PM that he purchased at a different hobby shop and with a different batch number; and this fellow had the same problem, i.e. the engine would not stay running with the glow plug igniter removed. We tried two other brands of fuel and the engine ran just fine with these fuels.

I have used many gallons of PM during my years of modeling and it used to be a good dependable fuel. However I think the new company is having some quality control issues because they don’t fully understand how model glow engines work. Without good fuel a crash is inevitable.

Has anyone else recently had a similar experience with PM fuel? If so please post your experience here.

Bob

MetallicaJunkie

can you post the batch number so i can see if i have any

coriolan

Have used PowerMaster fuel for a long time with full satisfaction, is the company under new ownership?

earlwb

That is interesting. What type of fuel did he have that was causing the problems?
Some engines with lower compression ratios will not run right at all with low nitro or no nitro glow fuel. I ran into this with a few engines myself.
I also have some engines that won't run right with higher nitro fuels and require no nitro or very low nitro glow fuel.
PowerMaster makes a lot of different glow fuels, so it would be nice to know what type was causing the problem and its batch number if possible.
I have some Powermaster fuel too, but it seems to be working OK for me.

Sport_Pilot

Also for those engines made for either low or high nitro the outside temp makes a huge diference. For example I have an older Fox .50 that will run well on 10% nitro on a cool day, but will only run on 5% or sometimes less on a hot day. Low compression engines may be just the opposite for all I know.

Oldbob

Hay guys, I have also used PM for many years, but lately some of their fuel is bad and until they can explain what the problem is I will be using another brand of fuel.

The batch number on the first cans is 321, and on the second can it is 04011. I want to get to the bottom of this problem so I can go back to buying PM fuel.

Bob

MetallicaJunkie

where does it say the batch number? i saw a date on the bottom of one can... made in 6 -2-11 and the other can has some etching i couldnt make out too well

Oldbob

Junkie, The cans I have have a sticker on the front near the top. It may be paper or plastic sticker. There is no marking on the bottom of the can.

If the fuel you have is running consistently good i.e. good idle, mid-range and top end, then use it. If you have a can of bad fuel you will know it because the engine will not stay running.

Bob

earlwb

OldBob,  what nitromethane percentage was in your can of bad glow fuel?

energyman

My Feedback: (2)

I have had an experience with two different batches of PM last year. One was 15% nitro, 18% blended oil, batch # 045/11. I bought a case and have use it in an OS 140RX, Evo 61, Evo 60, Evo 40, and twoTT Pro 40s. I have had no problems. Later last year the local hobby shop received a new batch of PM. The 15% nitro now had 17% blended oil, batch # 10911. One of the local fliers tried some of the new fuel in his club 40 racer, TT Pro 40 I believe, and had problems. I do not know what the problem was. He returned the fuel to the shop. The shop owner gave me the rest of the gallon and asked me to try it.

I used it in my TT Pro 40s, and Evo40 with no problem. As I recall, the needle settings did not change from one batch to the next.

Who knows? Temperature, humidity, glow plug, etc.?

Anyway, my experience for what it's worth.

Oldbob

Earl the first two cans were 10% nitro and 18 % oil; this recent can is 15% nitro 18% oil

earlwb

Thanks OldBob, that is certainly most fascinating. I'll have to ask about it at our local superstore size hobby shop this weekend to see if they know anything about it. They usually have a large stock of the PM fuel.
It sure sounds like they somehow got something screwed up, bad methanol or bad nitromethane or both.

Edwin

My Feedback: (2)

Subscribed. Watching this closely. I currently have 6 students that sure dont need this problem.
Edwin

Oldbob

Just for the heck of it I went to their web site. PowerMaster is made by Texas Allied Chemicals, Inc. As far as I can tell they carry 218 chemicals and they say they can blend any formulation of racing fuels. If they are mixing these fuels in the same pots and vats without completely cleaning these containers before mixing Glow Fuel there could be cross contamination of some chemical that will not keep the glow plug hot. If you are using a racing fuel that is slightly contaminated, in a race car which has spark ignition, you may not notice the change in performance. But our glow engines require pure (PURE) methanol to keep the glow plug hot.
Bob

cutaway

FWIW, Methanol is about the coolest burning of almost any fuel additive/power booster. Ethanol, benzene, nitromethane, nitroethane, nitro benzene, hydrazine, ordinary gasoline, etc are all going to produce INCREASED combustion temps.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Texas allied Chemicals has owned the Power Master business for the last three years. For many years before that, they were the supplier of the product and even before that, were the suppliers of the components.

For many years Power Master has been the standard of comparison of model fuels.

In spite of the rosy reputation there can be problems

1QwkSport2.5r

PowerMaster fuels is now owned by VP Racing Fuels. I do think they changed their blends somewhat when VP took over. I remember reading about some guys having issues with their car fuel.. I'll have to see if I can find the site where I read that.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

All the details are on this site somewhere? maybe a search will bring it up. Try Google looking back into RCU?

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Texas Allied Fuels and VP are the same company

http://www.texasalliedchemicals.com/

1QwkSport2.5r

I stand corrected. Thanks w8ye.

pmerritt

My Feedback: (118)

earlwb

I wonder if someone screwed up and mixed in too much ethanol instead of using pure methanol.
Usually you can get a glow engine to run off of denatured alcohol and oil, which is ethanol poisoned with methanol. There is usually enough methanol in denatured alcohol to get a engine to work off of it. But there could just as easily be some other contaminant causing it too.

1QwkSport2.5r

Based on what I've read around here, SLX Klean Strip is believed to be 50% methanol, Sunnyside brand is only 3-4% methanol. I haven't tried it and probably wont since SLX is about $16 a gallon.


Maybe they got bad chemicals from China? Rumor has it that most of the nitromethane in our model engine fuels comes from China. Now I said "rumor", so I dont know if this is true.

earlwb

Actually most all of the Nitromethane does all come from China. The last chemical plant that made it in the USA quit doing it. India has some nitromethane manufacturing but I don't know how much of it is exported if at all.
There may be a chemical plant that makes some limited quantities of laboratory grade nitromethane left in the USA, but I don't know if even they do it anymore. The Chinese nitromethane requires more purification steps if you are using it in a lab or something. The Austrailan folks were reporting more nitric acid residue as a contaminant in the nitromethane they were getting a couple of years ago. So I assume it is a common impurity in the stuff.
But depending on your use the impurities may or may not be important.

I got to thinking that maybe the fuel cans wound up mislabeled or having the wrong fuel put in them. Many of the glow engines sold in the USA have lower compression ratios so they can run higher nitro percentage fuels. If you were to run FAI no nitro glow fuel in them, they tend to run like crap, and won't idle well, etc.

An evil thought was that someone relabled the fuel cans in a attempt to get rid of some old fuel sitting on the shelf at the store. FAI fuel isn't all that popular anymore and depending on the locale neither is 5% nitro glow fuel either. But then maybe someone at the factory screwed up the labeling on the cans too.

1QwkSport2.5r

A number of years ago I used to use a popular brand of R/C car fuel that was made for this "popular" company by Morgan Fuels. Supposedly it was a castor/synthetic blend, but the oil content is ultra hush-hush by the "popular" r/c car company. After running this fuel for 5-6 years and having a lot of problems with my engines, I almost quit the hobby. Needling a car engine is trickier than airplane engines, add in crappy fuel and its even harder. For a new guy in the hobby, good fuel is a must. I switched brands, used 3 different brands over the next 8 years and had a huge turnaround with how the engines ran and needled. This "popular" company's fuel burned dirty. With the engine broke in and tuned for power, the piston would come out black, and the bottom of the glow plug casing (not the element itself) was black. Run 2 tanks of brand "B" fuel and the black went away and a nice gold color came about. The rumor was cheap chinese nitromethane was being used in Brand "A" fuel and caused headaches for everyone that used it. I'm no chemist so I do not know if the nitro was to blame, or the oil package. I just know it ran like poo.

Around here, only one of my 3 LHS's carry 5% nitro glow fuel, SIG Champion. They only carry it in quarts too. Most all other fuels the other stores carry is Byrons, Omega, and Cruel Power. One carries Wildcat, but I never had good luck with that stuff either so I wont use it. My homemade stuff stacks up as well as or better than SIG. I haven't tried SIG car fuel yet, but the LHS doesnt carry SIG's car fuel.