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All Forums >> Glow Engines, Gas Engines, Fuel & Mfg Support Forums >> Gas Engines >> Which engine vibrates more! Gas or Glow 4 Stroke??
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Which engine vibrates more! Gas or Glow 4 Stroke?? - 2/16/2012 5:25 PM   
armody



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From: Louisville, KY, USA
Status: offline 		Hello y'all,

I would like to learn about this experiences of yours and honestly speaking I learn a lot over here. Since I heard and is it correct that vibration is not good for airframe, as well as receiver and servos?

Receiver should be installed away from the ignition about 1 foot when it comes to gas engine. 2 stroke gas engines vibrate no matter what, and is it true or not?

Now compare Saito 1.20 4 Stroke or any 1.20 CI 4 stroke glow engine with DLE 20CC or any 20CC gas engine. If price, displacement, prop diameter, fuel cost, whole 9 yards don't matter, and a person has to choose between which motor vibrates less and which motor vibrates more in this analogy, so the choice would be 4 stroke glow engine or any 20CC gas engine?

I would really appreciate sharing your experiences, as well as your advices

Thanks in advance and happy flying


Mody



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RE: Which engine vibrates more! Gas or Glow 4 Stroke?? - 2/16/2012 7:39 PM   
Truckracer


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: armody

Hello y'all,

I would like to learn about this experiences of yours and honestly speaking I learn a lot over here. Since I heard and is it correct that vibration is not good for airframe, as well as receiver and servos?

Receiver should be installed away from the ignition about 1 foot when it comes to gas engine. 2 stroke gas engines vibrate no matter what, and is it true or not?

Now compare Saito 1.20 4 Stroke or any 1.20 CI 4 stroke glow engine with DLE 20CC or any 20CC gas engine. If price, displacement, prop diameter, fuel cost, whole 9 yards don't matter, and a person has to choose between which motor vibrates less and which motor vibrates more in this analogy, so the choice would be 4 stroke glow engine or any 20CC gas engine?

I would really appreciate sharing your experiences, as well as your advices

Thanks in advance and happy flying


Mody



Hard to compare apples to apples here but here are my purely unscientific observations. When replacing a 4 stroke Saito 180 with either a Syssa 180 or the DLE 30, both of the gassers felt considerably smoother than the Saito. While I'm not sure there is much mechanical vibration difference, the firing pulses from the 4 stroke are clearly more harsh at just about any throttle setting. Powerful 4 strokes such as the larger YS engines have extremely harsh power pulses that can show up as airframe shake and / or long term damage.

Now when changing from a glo 2 stroke to a gasser, if both engines are of fairly high quality and of a similar displacement, I really don't notice a great difference in vibration. Mag gassers will shake more at low throttle settings than engines with electonic ignitions. All single cylinder engines with have vibration nodes where at certain RPMs the vibration will peak ... usually very noticable just above idle. This will vary from engine to engine and some can be quite violent .... not necessarily related to being a glo or gasser problem but more related to mechanical design. Power pulses can contribute to this shake though. Sometimes you just have to know your particular engine and just don't fly in the throttle range where a problem might exist.

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RE: Which engine vibrates more! Gas or Glow 4 Stroke?? - 2/16/2012 8:34 PM   
armody



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Status: offline 		Truckracer,

It's really very well explained. I'm a newbie to Gasser and my first gas engine is DLE20 which is being mounted on Yak 54 120 by nitro planes. It hopefully be up in the air may be the first week of March for it's maiden flight.

I do not wish to over-repeat here but since I'm being helped by my mentor and so grateful to him, as he's got all the gizmos, gadgets and equipments one can think of to help me out. He said 4 Strokes do not vibrate as much as 2 stroke gassers. Gassers vibrate period. Since his verdict is that Gassers vibrate and they vibrate a lot so I wanted to get the input over the comparison of 4 stroke glows to gassers as he has 4 brand new Saito 91S and 2 Magnum 52 4Stroke engines in his stock. He is putting together a Katana or the flat fuselage plane for 3D and hovering stuff, he is gonna use Saito 91S on it and he said Saito or 4 strokes glow do not vibrate as much as Gas engines. I

I'd like to know about the pulses of 4 strokes or 2 stroke Gassers, what exactly those pulses you just talked about? Is it just like sporadic pulse since the 4 stroke engines need 4 cycles for fuel combustion or the whole engine body shaking?

Thanks

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RE: Which engine vibrates more! Gas or Glow 4 Stroke?? - 2/16/2012 8:54 PM   
serious power


 

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Status: offline 		Hi,
On the same subject;
Is there any difference between a Saito 120 glow and a Saito 120 gas.

Brian

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RE: Which engine vibrates more! Gas or Glow 4 Stroke?? - 2/16/2012 9:36 PM   
armody



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Status: offline 		Take a look at these 2 videos, let's compare the difference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgnE_fd66LM&feature=related DLE20


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBi1sA4kC-w Saito 125 GK

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RE: Which engine vibrates more! Gas or Glow 4 Stroke?? - 2/16/2012 9:55 PM   
Truckracer


 

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Status: offline 		The power or ignition pulses I refer to are the effect felt each time the engine fires. There is an instantaneous force that can be felt both as torque as the piston drives the crankshaft to turn the prop and also as a unidirectional force as the piston is driven down in the cylinder. Mind you this is a very simplistic explanation as I am not an engineer. Hold on to a large 4 stroke plane sometime while the throttle is advanced rapidly. You will feel both of these forces with each combustion cycle. Higher performance engines will usually have a more pronounced combustion pulse .... especially noticable in the larger YS engines. I don't know if you have been around dirt bike motorcycles, but the large, single cylinder 4 stroke engines used there are often called "thumpers" as the rider can feel each combustion stroke of the engine. Same with high performance Harleys and many other engines. Why do you think the ladies like to ride on Harleys?

Many gassers are extremely smooth ...... (3) I happen to own are the single cylinder Taurus 5w, the 3mm53 and the Zenoah GT-80 or 445 twin. The 3mm is especially smooth partly because of reduced combustion pulses due to low compression but this engine along with the Taurus have very good mechanical balance. The Zenoah is just a darn smooth running engine .... especially if equipped with EI. Quite a few other very smooth gassers out there also!

I don't believe the blanket statement that glo engines are smoother than gassers is a fair one! You have to judge the individual engines for comparison. There are some real shakers out there too ...... both glo and gassers! Yes, some could really stir the paint if you put the bucket on top of the plane for a bit! Also, I would never suggest that a 4 stroke glo engine is smoother than a similar sized 2 stroke engine. Again, you have to look at individual engines to evaluate them.

Edit: Forgot to mention .... you can really feel the effects of combustion pulses simply by adjusting a needle valve on any 4 stroke glo engine while running at full throttle. When rich the pulses are fairly smooth but become much more pronounced as you lean the engine. Lean the engine more and the pulses become quite violent even to the point of blasting the prop off the engine if too lean. I have seen several 4 stroke engines splinter a wood prop while running too lean. Those pulses are destructive at any speed and can really shake the heck out of the front of a profile plane!

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RE: Which engine vibrates more! Gas or Glow 4 Stroke?? - 2/16/2012 10:21 PM   
armody



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Status: offline 		Once again, thank you very much great explanation, and yeah ladies love riding Harleys

I'd been wanting to buy me a 4 stroke, but decent 4 stroke would cost me an arm and a leg, so I never had enough courage to go ahead and buy one,. I could've counted on Magnums and ASP's 4 strokes, but never had a chance. I'm glad that I got me DLE20 and been told that once I flew the Gasser would never go back to glows, which is a different debate. I've been around dirt bikes, but never been fan of it riding or just seem them. You are right, in order to feel the difference, I gotta see it for myself or may be experiment it.

I posted to links of 2 videos, I did see the difference, and 4 strokes motors shake a lot on idle as compared to 2 stroke gas motors. I would get a hang DLE20 once my Yak goes up in the air, then I would be able to tell more.

There are 4 Stroke Gassers around too, so since 2 stroke and 4 stroke Gassers are there, their demeanor could be different like glow engines too?

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RE: Which engine vibrates more! Gas or Glow 4 Stroke?? - 2/16/2012 10:53 PM   
MetallicaJunkie



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Status: offline 		from my experience 4 strokes vibrate more at idle...especially if the low end is rich

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RE: Which engine vibrates more! Gas or Glow 4 Stroke?? - 2/17/2012 4:41 PM   
armody



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Status: offline 		What about when both 4 strokes and 2 stroke gas engines on WOT? Which one vibrates more ? and which one causes the airframe shaking up more?

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RE: Which engine vibrates more! Gas or Glow 4 Stroke?? - 2/17/2012 9:56 PM   
Pippin


 

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Status: offline 		The FS gas engine vibrates more than the TS gasser.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_balance#Single-cylinder_engines

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RE: Which engine vibrates more! Gas or Glow 4 Stroke?? - 2/21/2012 10:10 PM   
armody



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Status: offline 		Thanks for the information.

It's understood that a 4 stroke glow engine would vibrate more than 2 stroke Gasser, right?

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RE: Which engine vibrates more! Gas or Glow 4 Stroke?? - 2/21/2012 11:26 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: armody

Thanks for the information.

It's understood that a 4 stroke glow engine would vibrate more than 2 stroke Gasser, right?

Thats my experience but unless a plane is extremely lightly built, I wouldn't worry about it.

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RE: Which engine vibrates more! Gas or Glow 4 Stroke?? - 2/21/2012 11:57 PM   
MetallicaJunkie



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quote:

ORIGINAL: armody

What about when both 4 strokes and 2 stroke gas engines on WOT? Which one vibrates more ? and which one causes the airframe shaking up more?


4 strokes


like mentioned earlier "dont worry about it" fly what you have and enjoy it

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RE: Which engine vibrates more! Gas or Glow 4 Stroke?? - 2/22/2012 3:14 PM   
armody



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Status: offline 		Yeah, I ain't worried about 4 strokes, I'm gonna run my DLE20 and for the first time I would feel for myself how it runs. I'd hopefully be having a maiden flight of my Yak 54 in the first week of March. I'd let ya know my first Gasser experience as well as the vibrations.

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RE: Which engine vibrates more! Gas or Glow 4 Stroke?? - 2/23/2012 9:17 PM   
armody



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Status: offline 		Apart from the vibration of 4 Stroke glow engine, I've noticed in many videos that DLE20 gives a pulls a lot of speed as compared to the same size 4 stroke glow engine. Planes with DLE20 gives more punch to speed so, Gas engines are better choice even when choosing the speed

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RE: Which engine vibrates more! Gas or Glow 4 Stroke?? - 2/23/2012 10:52 PM   
Truckracer


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: armody

Apart from the vibration of 4 Stroke glow engine, I've noticed in many videos that DLE20 gives a pulls a lot of speed as compared to the same size 4 stroke glow engine. Planes with DLE20 gives more punch to speed so, Gas engines are better choice even when choosing the speed

Just as 4 stroke glo engines have a different torque curve than 2 stroke glo engines, gassers have an even different feel. Then within the gasser ranks, piston port engines have a very different feel (torque and power curves) than rear intake reed valve engines. Its all good, interesting and fun to explore.

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RE: Which engine vibrates more! Gas or Glow 4 Stroke?? - 2/24/2012 4:33 PM   
asmund


 

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Status: offline 		My ASP 180 fs glow engine definately shakes my test rig more than my MVVS 160 gasser. The fourstroke only fires every other rotation, and when it fires it does so with more power than when a two stroke fires. In short these two engines are about exaxtly the same power (both turns MenzS 18-6 at 8000 rpm+) But the gasser takes twice the amount of firings to get it done, therefore more smooth

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RE: Which engine vibrates more! Gas or Glow 4 Stroke?? - 2/24/2012 5:08 PM   
armody



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Status: offline 		So the verdict is, under any circumstances the 4 stroke glow engine shakes more than 2 stroke gas engine, but one thing I noticed in many videos as I mentioned earlier, same displacement 2 Stroke gassers give a lot of punch in speed to plane like warbirds than a 4 stroke glow engine.

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