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Very nice Brian. Isn't it great how much time we can spend getting things right when there might be only one or two people in the world who would recognize the fact without photos right there for comparison!
Also you'll want to download and have a look at the (Polish) manual on the 1914 Hotchkiss, linked at the bottom of this page. Lots of great information there.
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quote:
a little fearful when it comes to styrene
I wasn't too sure either, however the styrene is actuallly quite easy to work with Don. With the liquid 'weld' glue it bonds - welds the plastic to itself, you can also use CA, especially if you have to bond the styrene to other plastics, etc. The plastic cuts well with a razor saw, and sands nicely. It's quite similar to working with softwood.
I thought the plastic tubing would be too weak to support anything. Originally I was going to run dowels through each piece of tubing, couldn't find the correct size and thought I'd have to sand the dowel to a smaller diameter... then I remembered the KISS principle and just used the styrene tubing at scale diameters. The structure is quite sound and will support the instruments, the cross rail will hold the seat and even a scale pilot as long as I keep it/him lightweight.
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quote:
Martin: Isn't it great how much time we can spend getting things right when there might be only one or two people in the world who would recognize the fact without photos right there for comparison!
LOL Martin - I think most of us on this forum know exactly where you are coming from. To some extent we are all perfectionists - and I certainly intend to fill those shoes with this build. I find myself pouring over the documentation photos time and time again. Problem being every time I look I see something new, another small detail, or something I missed. I think I do this until I create a very detailed, accurate image of the model or area I am focussing on in my mind. Especially in this case where there are no plans. Only when I am fully comfortable with it in my mind's eye and how I am going to replicate it, do I then proceed to making the piece or building the component.
quote:
might be only one or two people in the world who would recognize the fact
- it has to pass my own scrutiny for the level of detail and scale accuracy that I want in the build, and then of course I get some reciprocal satisfaction knowing that others who are following the build appreciate my efforts.
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Thanks Don - that is a great 2-view of the Hotchkiss machine gun. The Polish manual provides some good drawings for reference.
Don's reason for posting the Hotchkiss MG originated from my inquiry in another forum post:
I am looking for scale documentation on the French Hotchkiss machine gun as I will be scratch building one for this model. If anyone has some drawings tucked away in the reference section of their shops or has a link to somewhere on the web I'd appreciate the help/sharing.
Bri
< Message edited by Flying Fox -- 12/21/2012 7:46 PM >
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Are you saying that the 2-view labeled in French and referred to as the 1914 version is NOT the French Hotchkiss? Also given that the Polish manual is from 1919, I strongly suspect that they are describing the French manufactured weapon (rather than a later Russian or Polish produced version).
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Au contraire - your post is correctly refering to the French Hotchkiss 1914 version machine gun, same in the polish manual. I was trying to explain/clarify that I am looking for reference material on this machine gun.
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Hotchkiss Portative / Hotchkiss .303 Portable Mk.I machine gun / Benet-Mercie machine rifle M1909 (France / UK / USA)
Looking at the photos and schematics i realized there are two types of these Hotchkiss MGs - a standard one and a lighter portative one that was used on aircraft. You can recognise the lighter, portable one by its smaller annular cooling fins on the forward barrel.
Hotchkiss - There were two Hotchkiss models in Army use during World War One. One was the standard French Heavy Machine Gun, the Puteaux-Hotchkiss Mle 1914. The other one was a smaller, lighter, portable model, Hotchkiss Portative Mk1/M1909 that was employed both as a mobile Light MG, and as a weapon in a number of British Tanks, among others the Mk IV and the Whippet. It was also used in aircraft.
It was a light weapon, weighing only some 28 pounds, and simple in design, made up of only 26 component parts. It was, as is obvious, an air-cooled weapon, but with much smaller cooling flanges than on the bigger model. The infantry model was equipped with a bipod barrel rest, the aircraft version was instead equipped with a crutch, and the wooden stock replaced by a pistol grip. When used in Tanks, the stock was also removed, employing only the pistol grip. The maximum rate of fire was 600 rounds per minute, as long the gun was fully served. With two men the rate of fire was lowered to 400 rounds per minute, and if only one man was to serve the gun, a rate of 250 rounds per minute was maximum. It could also be fired in single shot mode, at a rate of 100 rounds per minute.
The Hotchkiss M1909 machine gun was a French designed light machine gun of the early 20th century, developed and built by Hotchkiss et Cie. It was also known as the Hotchkiss Mark I and M1909 Benet-Mercie. It was adopted by the French army as the Hotchkiss M1909 (or Mle 1909) in 1909, firing the 8 mm Lebel. A variant to use the .303 round was produced in Britain as the “Hotchkiss Mark I” and manufactured by Enfield.
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Merry Christmas Just want to pass along season's greetings and a heartfelt thanks to all of you watching and following along with my build and to those of you that have chimed in with support, advice, suggestions and encouragement!
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Thought I’d tackle the pilot’s seat next.
The original appears to have been a low-sided plywood seat with an angled back containing lightening holes and a leather seat cushion. Working from the side-view I drew up a template out of card stock and used the trial and error cut-to-fit method to figure out the curvature of the seat back. The base was cut out of 1/8 ply and its outer edge beveled with my disk sander to provide the 15o slope for the seatback. The bevel decreases from rear to sides to give the seatback its characteristic outward splay from the base. Lightening holes were cut out of the thin ply seatback with a forstner bit. The two pieces were sanded, stained a rich chamois colour, and then glued together. A thin light-coloured ply scarf provides support for the upper edge of the seatback.
To make the seat cushion I cut a ¼” piece of foam rubber to shape along with a thin ply support piece. A piece of mottled burgundy vinyl leather was cut slightly oversize, stretched over the foam, and CA’d to the support piece. Working from back to sides to front I was able to stretch the leather quite tightly to avoid any wrinkles. Five scale size ‘buttons’ were fashioned from a dowel, stained, and a length of strong sewing thread was CA’d to the bottom of each. The cushion was pierced with a thin drill bit, each button in sequence being threaded through the hole, pulled tightly to create a dimple in the seat cushion, and its thread CA’s to the bottom of the cushion support piece to hold the button dimple in place. Sandpaper and a file were used to scuff it up as the plane will represent a well worn example – thus the weathered seat cushion.
Photos – seat design, components, several views of the pilot seat with cushion
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Work continues on the cockpit area and several components are ready to be installed but before I do so I have to decide on what colour to paint the steel tubing structure and angle-iron longerons in the cockpit area. I believe there are only two choices: i) a slightly greyed black or ii) a French grey-blue colour.
Both colours are references in several of the 3D model framework photos on the Casques de Cuir website – my reference website for this build. The black is shown in the most recent 2012 diagrams on the website in which the Morane Saulnier Type N is covered with fabric and appears ‘completed/finished’ with natural clear doped linen and all metal surfaces painted black. The grey-blue colour appears in earlier diagrams with the airplane in a semi-finished but uncovered state. Research on the web also shows that this grey-blue colour was used on other period French WWI planes such as the morane sualnier AI.
I know the adage is to ‘follow your documentation’ however my documentation shows two possibilities both of which only exist on a computer screen. There is no existing example of the particular airplane I am modeling so I cannot prove the historical choice of black. Restored and replica examples exist of similar French WWI aircraft with the grey-blue scheme thus proving it’s validity. But then again someday in the near future the Casques de Cuir will recreate a full scale Morane Saulnier Type N from their 3D model and I would assume they will stick to the 2012 colour scheme shown on the finished 3D model. Since it is the Casques de Cuir airplane that I am modeling, and since I should follow my documentation, and since the most recent and finished model shows black on all metal surfaces… And yes I am going in circles here…
I guess what I really need is a lawyer who would then simple state – ‘asked and answered’ What do you think? Should I go with a slightly greyed black colour for the metal surfaces in the cockpit?
Photos - MS Type N finished with fabric cover and black metal surfaces - MS Type N cockpit tubular structure with grey-blue paint - MS Type AI a similar French airplane with French grey-blue tubular structure
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I'd go with the blue-grey for the tubing (which is rust primer) and the black for external metal sheeting and fittings. I tend to trust the obsessiveness of the plastic kit box artists.
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Now the real question is what color would the metal panels be on the INSIDE??? I'm assuming that they would be unpainted and that the unpainted metal would show in the cockpit area.
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Yes, I agree that the metal panels would be unpainted inside the cockpit - that sems to be the case with just about everything we've seen in museums and on the web. The inner sides of the metal panels at the front of the fuselage will be unpainted.
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Thanks for the input Martin, Don and Doc.
Martin, I like the grey-blue colour the best as it is uniquely French WWI and really stands out kind of garrishly in the cockpit. I like your line of thinking in that
quote:
It shows a history of MS practice and is most defensible.
Something about the grey-blue rustproofing of interior metal surfaces has been nagging me in the back of my mind but I couldn't figure out why. And I really like the look of it. And I even went ahead and picked out the paints, blended the colour and test painted it on the tubing framework. And then I remembered that old addage
quote:
‘follow and build to your documentation’
So let me try and explain.
The photo: MS Type N cockpit tubular structure with grey-blue paint, shows a 3D rendering or mockup of the airplane. It uses several colours (pink, lime green, etc.) that are not natural or correct simply to distinguish various parts. Even the tubular structure is portrayed with both a grey colour and the french grey-blue rustproofing colour - look at a junction where smaller tubing joins the larger tubing under the longerons. All the tubing should be french grey-blue colour or just grey to represent metallic colour. But no big deal - it just helps us to distinguish the various parts. French grey-blue might still have been used as interior rustproofing - just no definitive proof yet.
The photo: MS Type AI a similar French airplane with French grey-blue tubular structure, depicts a Morane Saulnier Type AI parosol fighter. Along with their early monoplanes, Morane Saulnier developed a whole line of parasol monoplanes begining in 1913, however the Type AI depicted in the photo went into production in 1917, with1,210 built. It shows the French grey-blue rustproofing but by this stage of the war many aspects of aviation had changed including paint colours and their composition (UV protection, etc.) and various rustproofing techniques likely improved as well. My point being that while this rustproofing example is valid for a late period Morane Saulnier aircraft it may not hold true for an earlier period aircraft.
The photo: MS Type N finished with fabric cover and black metal surfaces is the most recent and up to date depiction that Casques de Cuir is depicting as the finished scheme for their 3D model.
quote:
tend to trust the obsessiveness of the plastic kit box artists
While what Don states is very true and reliable for us modellers of WWI aviation subjects, especially when an actual museum examples are often lacking as is the case here, I have to put my trust in the experienced researchers/restoration team at Casques de Cuir and rightly assume that they know what they are doing. Thier intent is to build a flying replica after completing the 3D mock up and they are depicting it with black metallic surfaces in exposed interior and exterior surfaces. In looking at the thoroughness of other restoration projects on their website I can only reply to their stunning work with jaw dropping admiration.
To some degree we can refute this if we refer to some of the issues surrounding german lozenge research/restoration and its various interpretations and outcomes but that is a different story altogether, and I think we have seen some really accurate work even around this touchy subject recently.
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... continuing
So with something in my mind nagging me about the french grey-blue rustproofing colour, and Martin's statement to show/demonstrate a prior history of MS practice so that my colour choices are most defensible...
Let's examine the history of Morane Saulnier or the Societe Anonyme des Aeroplanes Morane-Saulnier that was set up in 1911 to design and manufacture aeroplanes.
Recall that Leon Morane and his brother Robert, along with their childhood friend Raymond Saulnier and fellow Frenchmen Gabriel Borel became partners set up the Societe Anonyme des Aeroplanes Morane-Saulnier to design and manufacture monoplanes in May of 1911. Borel left the company shortly thereafter to set up on his own company in October. Saulnier had worked with Bleriot on the famous cross-channel Type Onze (XI), and began designing a series of monoplanes.
The early designs being primarily wire-braced monoplanes, beginning with the Morane-Saulnier Type A, 1910 - Training monoplane, with 13 built for the French army. Followed in quick succession by Types B and C – 1911, Type D – 1912, Types E, F– 1913, leading to the two-seat Type G – 1912, and the more famous single-seat Type H monoplane, 1913 (designed in 1912), and the parasol-wing Type L – 1913 and shoulder-wing Type N – 1914. Various other parasol monoplanes were designed, notably the Type AI – 1917, with1,210 built.
I've trolled the web looking for photos of original or replicas of Morane Saulnier monoplanes from 1911 - 1918. It is only in their late war period aircraft, specifically the Type AI of 1917, that there is evidence of the French grey-blue rustproofing paint. So I cannot really rely on the Type AI with its grey-blue colour to be correct and defensible for 1915 rustproofing colour.
Shortly after designing the Type H monoplane they produced the first Type N, a significant development of the Type G and Type H, retaining the shoulder-wing design, but fairing out the fuselage into a circular cross section, and a large spinner nearly covered the 80 hp Gnome engine. The first prototype of the Type N had its public debut at the flying meeting held at Aspern, Vienna from June 21-28, 1914, were it was flown with moderate success by the famous French pilot Roland Garros. The Type N was an attempt to achieve the same performance like the contemporary Deperdussin monocoques (at that time the most advanced aircraft in the world), but with a much simpler construction. The design bore a family resemblance to the earlier Type G and Type H. The prototype was powered by an 80hp Gnome rotary engine and showed a rather peculiar distinctive feature in form of an enormous spinner. Like many other aircraft of its time this type had no ailerons, lateral control was by wing warping.
A revised Type N made its appearance in the summer of 1915, with the 80 hp Le Rhone engine now standard. Soon afterwards a small production series was ordered for the French Aviation Militaire under the designation Type N. In official papers this type was designated as MoS.6.C1, and this is the particular variant of the Morane Saulnier Type N that I am building.
With a better understanding of the Morane Saulnier company history, I again trolled the web looking for photos of original or replicas of early Morane Saulnier monoplanes from 1911 up to the Type N of 1915. There is no-evidence of the French grey-blue rustproofing paint in any of these early aeroplanes. What we see instead is repeated use of black paint on both exterior and interior metal surfaces of all Morane Saulnier aircraft of this period up to and including 1915.
Is the black paint even rustproofing? I'm guessing probably not, quite likely the company continued its past practice of using black paint - dope in fact, for interior and exterior metal surfaces, and thus its tendancy to weather and peel off as is clearly evident in many photos.
So, I will follw my documentation and use black colour for all exposed/accessible metal surfaces. Based on my research of the Morane Saulnier company history and past practices, and the 3D model that Casques de Cuir's research/restoration team is developing I feel confident with my choice and feel that it shows a history of MS practice and is most defensible.
They better not change it!!! Does this make sense to you? How do you see it - Would you agree that my use of black paint is based on a history of MS past practice (pre 1917) and is most defensible?
Photos 1-2 Casques de Cuir type N Photo 3 - Morane Saulnier Type H, the French racing monoplane and predecessor from which the Morane Saulnier Type N evolved. Black paint has been proven to be the past practice and was typically used by the company to cover all metal surfaces both on the exterior and interior exposed surfaces. Sometime later during WWI it appears the French Aviation Militaire adopted a revised practice of using grey-blue rustproofing paint on interior metal surfaces.
Cheers, Bri
< Message edited by Flying Fox -- 1/8/2013 10:06 PM >
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That's a LOT of argumentation! Are you sure YOU'RE not a lawyer? Perhaps one more argument supporting the choice of "dark-grey/black" on interior tubing is that they most likely used the same "primer" on both the tubular tail elements as they did on the cockpit tubing. And your documentation seems to show the tail tubing as dark-grey/black.
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Good arguments! At the end of the day, YOU are the one who has to be convinced as you are the toughest judge you will have to deal with. I do think your tracing of company painting history is a valid and interesting argument.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ...YOU are the one who has to be convinced as you are the toughest judge you will have to deal with. I do think your tracing of company painting history is a valid and interesting argument. So, black everywhere?
Thanks Martin, yes it will be black on all exposed metal surfaces both exterior and interior. Here's another two photos of a turnbuckle and cable thimbles from the original Borel-Morane H restored at the Canadian Aviation & Space Museum in Ottawa, Canada. Again it confirms and demonstrates the company practice of painting internal metal components black!
You bring up a good point though - Judges & Contest Judging. I know modellers covering the the WW2 to Present have it 'made in the shade' for the most part when it comes to documentation on scale outlines, colour, etc. I'm not saying that their task not complicated and involved, just that it easier to obtain the scale documentation info - colour chips, photos, very accurate 3 and 5-views, etc.
I've always wondered how WWI modelers approach the scale documentation dilema? A few lucky examples of aircraft survive in museums around the world and to various degrees of restoration/deterioration, but often the planes we model do not even exist any more. A decade or two ago the Neito drawings were considered correct and reliable, not so much now.
Then there is the whole conundrum of scale colours such as PC10 and german lozenge, and also to the insignia colours of the various countries. I've seen multiple different references for British WWI insignia red and blue such as given in the Windsock datafiles and Munsell and Methuen references. Insignia red for British and French roundels/cockades are suppose to be different colours yet we often see them referenced to the same colour - and sometimes even with restored museum aircraft we see examples where insignia red is the exact same colour on both British and French aircraft - how can this be? It is clearly documented in the literature that insignia red and blue were different colours for British and French aircraft, even taking into account the effects of weathering. Could they not mix up a new batch of paint so as to portray insignia colours a little more accurately. Was restoration this sloppy in the past? Is it a case that much more research has been carried out in recent times?
Please don't get me wrong here - I mean no offense at all to curators, restorers, researchers, museums, etc. I know their job is not as easy as I'm making it sound here. I truly do admire and respect their dedication and work! Several have gone well out of their way to help me out with scale information, etc. I've spent hous crawling around the aviation museums in both Hamilton and Ottawa, examing aircraft and admiring both the original designs and the wonderful job that has been done to restore, preserve, and display these aircraft for the benefit of us all.
So how do you WWI modelers approach this documentation issue for scale contests? Do you just go with what you've got, what's right and justifiable to you? Do you simply go with your own interpretation of camouflage colour and insignia colour? How do you prove/document your info? Do you even need to prove/document any of this? Is documentation from Windsock Datafiles sufficient documentation in and of itself? How do the judges approach these issue with WWI models?
To me it is really important to get things right! I know I'm a bit of a perfectionist, but do some of you feel the same way?
Maybe some of you guys that have done the scale contest documentation thing can chime in and help us less experienced guys out and share some of your secrets!
Cheers, Bri
< Message edited by Flying Fox -- 1/9/2013 4:14 PM >
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The Casques de Cuir website depicts the Morane Saulnier Type N with all internal and external metal surfaces painted a slightly greyed black colour. As they say – ‘build to your documentation’. I will use Model master enamel FS37031 – Aircraft interior Black colour.
The styrene plastic tubular cockpit structure, seat brackets and legs, control column and aileron torque tube were all painted black. The tubular structure was installed in the cockpit with CA and 5-minute epoxy. The metal angle iron longerons were painted black and then weather by gently rubbing and removing paint while it dried to reveal the steel colour underneath.
The control column is linked to the aileron torque tube by a yoke which was fashioned from pine. The assembly was bolted together, painted black and installed on the cockpit floor. A small cotter pin in the torque tube is hidden at the rear and this allows full articulation of the control column. The control column handle has yet to be fabricated and installed.
Two short lengths of round plastic tubing were slit lengthwise to make snap-on brackets (C-shaped) for the bottom of the seat. The brackets were glued to the underside of the seat bottom, painted, and the seat assembly was then snapped onto and glued to the tubular cross member in the fuselage with the rear seat brackets being glued to the cockpit floor. The leather seat cushion was then epoxied to the seat.
There is a lot of tubular and angle iron steel in the cockpit area, especially behind and to the sides of the pilot. To prevent injury to the pilot when knocked about the cockpit in flight, a 3-sided padded leather bumper was installed on the upper longerons, tubing and rear former beside and behind the pilot seat. This proved quite a challenge to fabricate accurately and took several attempts. I first tried making a 3-piece plywood backing frame with a piece of foam CA’d to the front. However in trying to stretch the leather over the foam, create the creases, and keep things looking consistent, I could not produce acceptable results. Next I tried making each individual bumper block, ten in all, by wrapping a section of leather around a piece of foam that was glued to a plywood backing piece. Once again however, stretching the leather severely distorted the foam and consistent replication was impossible.
A different approach was needed, so whereas the pilot seat cushion is soft and flexible with foam padding beneath the leather, the bumpers are fabricated from six solid balsa blocks. Four individually leather wrapped blocks behind the pilot and two segmented side blocks – producing a total of ten cushions on the bumper. The individual balsa blocks were first sanded to simulate a smooth cushion shape. Next a piece of leather was CA’d to the front of the block and then progressively stretched tightly to conform to the contour of the shape, being CA’d as I stretched and worked the leather around the block. The four rear blocks were then CA’d together and epoxied to the rear former. The side blocks had two vertical V-grooves cut into the face of the solid piece thereby producing the three segments. A piece of leather was CA’d to the face, pressed into the grooves, and then stretched around the shape. Finally the segmented side blocks were custom fit and epoxied to the longerons, bracing tubing, and the rear bumper.
The seat and cushion, angle iron longerons, and tubular structure were enjoyable to create. The bumper was tough to fabricate, especially working the leather around the small parts. It took some alternative ‘how to’ thinking but turned out okay - 3 tries was a charm. I am quite pleased with the look of the rear cockpit area now to this point of completion, and I’m certainly learning a lot as to how to work with different materials and ideas to replicate scale looking cockpit components. It takes a lot of work and time to scale up a cockpit but the end results are well worth it.
I need to fashion a seatbelt – any ideas for French airplanes? There are very few examples on the web but it appears that in 1915 they were a fairly simple 2-point wide lap-belt system rather than the 3 or 5 point harnesses seen later in the war. I’m thinking a wide 2-point lap belt made of braided canvas and leather anchored to the tubular framework. A good example from a British Be2f can be found at the memorial Flight News website: http://memorial-flight-news.blogspot.ca/2012/12/be2f-ceintures-seat-belts.html
The leather or webbing would be about 3-6” wide so for ¼ scale it would have to be around an inch wide. Time to go to the fabric store for some kind of waist line fabric elastic, braided canvas strips, or whatever I can find.
Cheers, Bri
Photos - Cockpit from several angles - close up sideview of plywwood seat - clsoe up detail of aileron torque tube and weathering on angle iron longeron
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Bri, you are right about the colours debates. A century of colour degradation makes definitive pronouncements suspect. Frankly, the contemporary verbal descriptions may have as much validity as surviving colour swatches. The original Vienna Aviatik DI was thought to be brown and green as that was the original paint. It has since been discovered to have been two shades of grey (!) which have aged to a brown and a green, presumably because of the paints' different chemical compositions.
I think there are two paths for WWI modellers. If you want to be really competitive in front of the judges, do a museum aircraft you can personally inspect and photograph for your documentation. If you want to build something not in a museum, the only judge you have to satisfy is yourself. Do your best, for your own satisfaction.
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RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout - 
LOL Martin - I think most of us on this forum know exactly where you are coming from. To some extent we are all perfectionists - and I certainly intend to fill those shoes with this build. I find myself pouring over the documentation photos time and time again. Problem being every time I look I see something new, another small detail, or something I missed. I think I do this until I create a very detailed, accurate image of the model or area I am focussing on in my mind. Especially in this case where there are no plans. Only when I am fully comfortable with it in my mind's eye and how I am going to replicate it, do I then proceed to making the piece or building the component. 
that I am looking for reference material on this machine gun. 
