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RE: Another - 1/22/2013 5:43 PM   
iron eagel



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Status: offline 		Thanks for adding yet another thing that could cause issues. lol
I have got them as close to perfect as I could as far as being parallel, I am pretty fussy about alignment when I build. It is at least as close as I got the Stingray and the only issues I had with it was the motor needed to be shimmed a touch. I used one of those lasers things that project straight lines during the build to try to get every thing flat and straight during the course of the build, the maiden flight should show it it was worth the effort or not.
I am hoping that one layer of carbon fiber veil should be enough, but it is as you said the type of stuff you can add multiple layers of if needed. Carbon fiber veil adds a lot of strength just in a single layer (I have used it before) the down side is it is a bit pricey for what you get but not outrageous. At some point I really would like to be able to make something like theses fins out of carbon cloth that is bagged or in a mold, but my knowledge of doing that type of thing is limited to what I have read in the composites forum. At some point I would really like to try some molded glass or carbon work but am still a bit gun shy.
Well I have got to get back to work on another project the blower fan let go in the furnace last night and the it's supposed to be very cold tonight close to zero from what I hear. At lest I have a backup in the form of a wood stove but heating the entire house with it is a pain.

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RE: Another - 1/22/2013 6:50 PM   
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Status: offline 		A woven carbon cloth layer on each side of 1/32" balsa would be easy to do with laminating epoxy [or cheaper polyester resin]. Use the plastic backing off monokote for your "mold release" and use flat scraps of anything you can find [like metal plates, plywood, large tiles] for your "press".


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RE: Another - 1/23/2013 12:29 AM   
iron eagel



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Status: offline 		A trip to Grainger and the heats back on, nice to have one of them around ten miles from here!

!/32 might work but I think 1/16th balsa core covered with on both sides with 2 oz/yd carbon fiber would be about optimum I think. The bit thicker balsa would give you a bit better overall strength and with a layer of the carbon fiber spread tow cloth on each side the fin would end up being only 3/22 thick. Like you said put some weigths on it and you got some nice light fins/wingletts,
Downside is the cloth would be about $45 for both fins then a couple of bucks for resin or epoxy (the cloth is about $180 a yard from what I see on CSTSales). But your using material that weighs 2.1 oz per sq yd about 8 grams total for the two fins and they would be stronger than solid aluminum. roughly about the weight of my built up balsa ones, but a thousand times stronger and 1/2 as thick.
As far as what you use wouldn't polyester make it stiffer than epoxy?
Although with the way these fins seem to snag anything near you you might be better off having a little give...
If only the budget would allow for such things.

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RE: Another - 1/23/2013 1:20 AM   
MJD



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Status: offline 		You're not getting obsessive now, are you..?

How much difference in drag is the thickness really going to make? The thicker cross section will benefit stiffness greatly.

I decided I better build a lekkie Demon, I have one framed up with a modified center section to hold batteries on the CG. I just bought an E-flite DF 32 motor today, from the specs it looks like it should haul the model well. None of the ecalc worksheets I found on the net list this motor under candidates for props.. but I guess I can just enter the parameters. From my rough figuring a 5x5 or 5.5x4.5 prop on 6s should do the trick, about 1100W output. I could go with more motor, but I'd like to keep the weight down, and these are off the shelf at any good LHS.

Seem like a functional setup? I am not the world's leading expert on electric setups.

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RE: Another - 1/23/2013 3:02 AM   
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Status: offline 		Paul, I was just thinking out loud about an alternative way to do fins..but I've never actually done it that way. I think the fins you got will work just fine with carbon veil.
I like your idea to use a laser pointer. I picked one up at HF for $3.99 to help set up the drivetrain in a car I'm building.



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RE: Another - 1/23/2013 4:59 AM   
iron eagel



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Status: offline 		Mike,
Yes a bit obsessive...
The long version:
But from what I have read and been reading, Frontal area (along with whetted area)are key factors in high speed aircraft right, now I am still experimenting with that concept. Mike Connor knew how important it was and that is why he was playing around with trying to make a very thin airfoil with his PQ. With a delta which can fly at low AOA's at speed if you can keep the frontal area down this compensates for the large cord. In the design of any aircraft one thing you can do to reduce drag is keep the frontal area as low as possible. Or at least that is my understanding and the thinner components present less frontal area, the hard part is to come up with something that isn't going to beat itself to death.
Mikes fist PQ exploded at about 130 mph from full wing flutter trying to get a 3/8 inch thick airfoil in a delta planeform to work. Trying to do that in primary balsa and keep the construction material cost to about $40.00 for a plane that would do 170 to 180 mph was the primary goals of his design. My Stingray was an attempt to do that but I have yet to surrender to the fact that I need at least a 6 inch prop to make it work. (That and the materials cost was closer to $70.00 and it has some carbon fiber and other composites in it.)
I have been trying to get it to work on a smaller prop to even better the speed it hasn't done better than 120mph since I dropped it from the 6X5 apc. Because of the way we got it to Doppler a couple of times during the maiden with the 6 prop (most of us at the field felt it was in the 150 to 160 pretty much straight and level) I had hopped that with a smaller prop it might be able of better. Here is a case where I will see just how much frontal area especially that which is right behind the prop will affect performance, I just reduced the area of the cowl right behind the prop by some 40% hopping that that is enough so it can get on the smaller prop, all just for grins...
The Stingray is the result of trying Mikes Idea and see if it would be possible to get something serious out of a delta like CP did. lol


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RE: Another - 1/23/2013 5:13 AM   
iron eagel



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quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg

Paul, I was just thinking out loud about an alternative way to do fins..but I've never actually done it that way. I think the fins you got will work just fine with carbon veil.
I like your idea to use a laser pointer. I picked one up at HF for $3.99 to help set up the drivetrain in a car I'm building.



Hey there is nothing wrong with that, "how do you make the better mouse trap". lol
Besides there is nothing wrong with thinking about, "just what would you have to do to match what's going on in the world speed cup".

Kicking around ideas of what to try is what results in the quicker runs from what I remember.
I done the veil for flight surfaces and reinforcements a few times and it does open up some interesting options.

A cheap laser can work real nice as a straight edge the beam width is your margin of error. The ones that do the cross hair type of thing work real sweet for getting both straight and square.

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RE: Another - 1/23/2013 2:36 PM   
MJD



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quote:

ORIGINAL: iron eagel

But from what I have read and been reading, Frontal area (along with whetted area)are key factors in high speed aircraft right, now I am still experimenting with that concept. Mike Connor knew how important it was and that is why he was playing around with trying to make a very thin airfoil with his PQ. With a delta which can fly at low AOA's at speed if you can keep the frontal area down this compensates for the large cord.


It helps, yes. The key is to keep the required lift coefficient low at speed by keeping the weight down, which means you can fly at lower AoA. AoA is highly detrimental on low aspect ratio wings as the induced drag goes to the moon in a hurry. This is why they are crappy for pylon racing as tight turns need high AoA which kills them. Yes you can turn them tight, but the poor efficiency means you burn up a pile of energy to do so. CP's observations about weight point squarely in this direction. You'll see the effect more and more dramatically as the aspect ratio goes down.

quote:

In the design of any aircraft one thing you can do to reduce drag is keep the frontal area as low as possible. Or at least that is my understanding and the thinner components present less frontal area, the hard part is to come up with something that isn't going to beat itself to death.


I agree.. all I was wondering out loud was, if by going thinner than say 1/8" or 3/32", do the minuses outweight the plusses? You'll cross a line somewhere, and the incremental changes at those thicknesses might be insignificant compared to the benefits of weight savings. Fin fluttering even mildly is a drag brake, so I was wondering if a little more cross sectional thickness with a nicely shaped light balsa core might be optimal. Heck, you'll find out.

quote:

I have been trying to get it to work on a smaller prop to even better the speed it hasn't done better than 120mph since I dropped it from the 6X5 apc. Because of the way we got it to Doppler a couple of times during the maiden with the 6 prop (most of us at the field felt it was in the 150 to 160 pretty much straight and level) I had hopped that with a smaller prop it might be able of better. Here is a case where I will see just how much frontal area especially that which is right behind the prop will affect performance, I just reduced the area of the cowl right behind the prop by some 40% hopping that that is enough so it can get on the smaller prop, all just for grins...


I had the feeling that with my electric Demon that 6" might be the smallest practical prop size.. your observations confirm that. A 6-4 or maybe 6-5 on the BL32 might be best, and the pitch speed is more in line with the expected top speed. I'm not trying to break records, just hustle along nicely with a fairly economicaloff the shelf motor setup.


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RE: Another - 1/23/2013 3:58 PM   
iron eagel



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Status: offline 		Mike,
This is a case were both Chuck and I were looking at it as an individual component, with a what if attitude. And really looking at the optimum design criteria of just that one component, that carbon cloth coupled with a balsa core should work pretty well as far as stiffness (theoretically), but the price is a bit up in the stratosphere, but in competing at the level were they are using CNC to make molds for props and wings (like you have said) this is the type of thing you get into to get the edge on the other guys.
Your right about deltas and turns and how they become a drag farm at high AOA's, but were not going for pylon racers here but rather straight line dragsters if you will. Hence my mods adding the swept wingtips and center section. I have all ready got the fins/wingletts on my SD and there not coming off unless there is a issue with them or they don't work. They are 1/8 inch thick and built up construction and are very lightweight to start with, I just hope that the carbon fiber veil is what will make them work for me. Like you said having them flutter I may as well try dragging a streamer behind me hopefully the carbon fiber veil will prevent that. One thing that is readily apparent is that we are all pretty much on the same page here. One interesting thing I want to throw out here is an observation I have made about the Stingray vs a conventional delta, it doesn't seem to hemorrhage off speed like a typical delta in a turn, it may not turn as tight but its not like putting the brakes on like with a pure delta.

Anyhow, the motor you have seems like a very good candidate for a SD, very similar in many aspects to the ones I used and am using for the Stingray and my SD. I would advise against the lower end ESC's in this application, stick with a high end CC Ice dual sink ESC.
I still haven't given up on a prop lower than 6 inch diameter, but at this point I have to admit it's not looking good. But Perhaps downsizing the Front of the cowl from 1 5/8 inches to 1 inch behind a 5 inch prop may be the change that makes it work. I have all ready incorporated change of the cowl that into my SD build from the start, I knew when I built the Stingray that was a weak point and a needed repair gave me the chance to do change to the cowl. I haven't had the chance to get the catapult and plane out to the field to try it because of the logistics it involves for me, but soon I hope to see if I can get a smaller diameter prop to work. I have to admit that at this point if it doesn't I will have to go back to a 6 inch diameter and chalk it up to a learning experince as far as the Stingray goes, but don't dismiss the possibility of under a 6 inch prop working on the SD. At 43 inches of span the Stingray is still bigger than a SD by quite a bit and there is still hope that the smaller diameter may work for the SD. On yours even a 6X8 may work, one reason I am suggesting the CC Ice controller is the data logger function is nice, you will see everything that happens as far as power draw and alike when your airborne; static measurements on the ground don't mean a lot because it all changes when your in the air.

< Message edited by iron eagel -- 1/23/2013 5:13 PM >

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RE: Another - 1/23/2013 6:16 PM   
iron eagel



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Status: offline 		While flipping the plane around working on it I saw an interesting view and thought you may be interested in seeing it.

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RE: Another - 1/23/2013 7:00 PM   
MJD



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Status: offline 		I have an ICE 75 for it. Max continuous for the motor is IIRC 62A. burst 75A.

I wonder what effect, if any, the tip fins have on a Demon versus the stock center fins in terms of induced drag. I know they look cooler, that must count for something..





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RE: Another - 1/23/2013 7:13 PM   
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Status: offline 		It's my understanding from talking to the techs at Castle Creations their dual heat sink Ice controllers can actually handle a bit more than it rating in burst so that should be cool. As far as the motor ratings I don't pay a lot of attention to them the HET I used in the stingray is rated for 58 amps 600watts and I pushed 91 amps and 900 watts into it.
I'm really not sure about all of the aspects of wingletts vs a center fin but it is my understanding the interference drag is lower and they change the airflow around the tip to reduce tip drag re: tip vortex.
Now I may be wrong as far as my interpretation of how they work, but the big boys working with sub sonic designs, seem to want to use it in a lot of designs they want to improve drag in. I know Southwest spent big money retrofitting their planes with them.

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RE: Another - 1/23/2013 7:13 PM   
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Status: offline 		It's kind of evil looking.........

Tip fins VS central. Would need to do a side by side with identical power. Electric power with easy component swapping would be the ticket. Pick a real calm day for the testing.
At 120 mph I wouldn't expect to see much. At 170+ is where you might see a consistent, significant pattern....but I'd have no clue which would be superior.



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RE: Another - 1/23/2013 7:15 PM   
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Status: offline 		To explain my last photo: excerpts for Andy Lennon's book R/C MODEL AIRCRAFT DESIGN.

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RE: Another - 1/23/2013 7:24 PM   
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Status: offline 		Evil looking... yea it kinda looks like something Kirk would be fighting on Star Trek.

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RE: Another - 1/23/2013 7:37 PM   
iron eagel



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quote:

ORIGINAL: MJD

I wonder what effect, if any, the tip fins have on a Demon versus the stock center fins in terms of induced drag. I know they look cooler, that must count for something..





I have been thinking about this.
You know what I post the question in the aerodynamics forum and see what they say about it.
Good question!

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RE: Another - 1/23/2013 10:10 PM   
MJD



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quote:

ORIGINAL: iron eagel

It's my understanding from talking to the techs at Castle Creations their dual heat sink Ice controllers can actually handle a bit more than it rating in burst so that should be cool. As far as the motor ratings I don't pay a lot of attention to them the HET I used in the stingray is rated for 58 amps 600watts and I pushed 91 amps and 900 watts into it.
I'm really not sure about all of the aspects of wingletts vs a center fin but it is my understanding the interference drag is lower and they change the airflow around the tip to reduce tip drag re: tip vortex.
Now I may be wrong as far as my interpretation of how they work, but the big boys working with sub sonic designs, seem to want to use it in a lot of designs they want to improve drag in. I know Southwest spent big money retrofitting their planes with them.


For sure they will generate less interference drag because there is only a single junction per fin versus two. And the center fins are probably in turbulence from the engine/tank compartments. But they are easier to install..

As I have been told winglets have to have some design smarts behind them to have any tangible benefit, but these comments stem from the idea of adding them to the tips of the wing on an already functional aircraft that otherwise does not need them for stability. In our case, those fins have to go somewhere, so at the very least they don't hurt and should generate less interference drag, and if we are lucky they may provide some benefit.

The BL32 is rated for up to 1400W continuous. If I achieve 1200-1400W input on a big enough prop something good ought to come of it. I expect I should be able to achieve sport .46 performance or thereabouts.

Nice looking exhaust nozzle BTW - maybe this should be called the "Doomsday Machine" in deference to the comment about Star Trek.

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RE: Another - 1/23/2013 11:04 PM   
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Status: offline 		I don't know if anyone has ever done any trials on SD wingtip size [area + shape].
I have accidentally tested tip fin area while flying RC combat on rectagonal flying wings.
The tip fins don't need to be very big..all you need is what I would call a "winglet" for stability at both ends of the speed envelope.


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RE: Another - 1/23/2013 11:37 PM   
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Status: offline 		Chuck,
These are a bit smaller in area than the ones that Mike had shown on the original plans. I figured by shifting them further aft they would be alright being smaller. They are pretty close in size to what I did on the Stingray for about the same wing area.

Mike,
I don't know, the Domesday machine is what sprung to mind to me in the first place, but that's a bit negative.
Besides overall it starting to look more like a Romulan Bird of Prey...

Well I have spent some time trying to turn my fins into wingletts, I got a good start on one wingtip.

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RE: Another - 1/24/2013 12:01 AM   
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Status: offline 		I always called it the Rotten Carrot.

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RE: Another - 1/24/2013 3:44 PM   
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Status: offline 		It did look like that didn't it.

Still working on the other wingtip, no response on the question about winglets in the aerodynamics forum.

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RE: Another - 1/24/2013 7:28 PM   
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Status: offline 		I was picking through some photos I took during the build of my .65 demon, and it reminded me that I had put a layer of 0.5oz carbon veil on each side of each fin, then over that with 3.2 oz glass and onto the tip blocks and capstrips. Those fins are more than up to the job, I've snagged a tip on landing and did a weird flat spinning cartwheel landing, like a Frisbee toss, and according to Doppler it has made the mid 190's so far.

I'll bet you have to talk to an aero engineer to get any genuine appraisal of the effectiveness of the tip fins. Even then they might not know right off the bat. I am surprised you haven't had two pages of conjecture so far though..

As far as putting smaller and smaller fins on an SD, I think you don't need much once you are up to speed, I wonder if it might get squirrelly at launch if you go too far.

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RE: Another - 1/24/2013 8:23 PM   
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Status: offline 		The fins have to be pretty beefy just to survive the abuse they get. Every time I do a plane with tip fins or winglets they seem to want to snag anything within arms reach.

I would have figured by this point several people would have responded, heck I have even seen Dr Selig himself answer a few questions in that forum.

These are a bit smaller than Mikes originals in area but not by much, there probably around 90% of the originals. They are virtually identical to the ones on the Stingray and it did ok at low speed and is roughly the same wing area. It would be interesting to see how small you could go before it got to be a problem. If I could figure out a way to do it (weight and linkage wise) I'd be up for building one without any vertical surfaces at all using drag rudders and a gyro for stability.

Been shaping the tips and fins trying to blend them together to form a winglet.
This looks about right to me.

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RE: Another - 1/25/2013 4:01 AM   
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Status: offline 		I dug out some shots from my fin construction. Some nice C-grain 1/8", bi-directional grain, LE and tip hardwood 1/8" x 3/16" (3/16" I think), and my little Dremel rig for slotting edges and continuous hinges. I cut a TE slot and inlaid .007" uni-dir CF for a finished edge and sanding block stop. 6.5g each before installation and CF/glassing.

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RE: Another - 1/25/2013 6:01 AM   
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Status: offline 		Those came out real nice!
I love your Dremel rig is that a router table I've not seen anything like that for a Dremel.
I have a router table for my Bosh but it set up for 1/2 inch shanks I not really set up for working with small woodworking in my shop. I do the vast majority of my airplanes by hand, I cut slots with a straight edge and a razor (stone age I know ).
With that CF trailing edge you could hone the trailing edge of those fins like a knife blade! That looks like maple you used for the LE, very nice, and they came out very lightweight to boot.

I have got to finish up blending the wing to the fins so I can wrap them in carbon fiber before I break them. With the rake to my fins they really hang out in the breeze and I keep whacking them when I move the plan around. I plan to wrap them with the carbon fiber and extend it both on top and under the wing by about an inch. Do you think that is far enough?
They are just glued to the wingtip and supported by the 1/4 inch triangle stock I really don't feel they are all that secure.

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