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Help With dreating a Quality, clear, and durable warbir... - 2/28/2012 9:23 PM   
NoFlaps


 

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Status: offline 		I'm making a YAK 9D 74" wirbird from a set of plans. The canopy is not something that is readily available and I'm having trouble finding an existing canopy or couple of canopies from different planes to make/ create a hybrid/ or simply make one from scratch.
IE: Front windscreen could be fronm a Zero or Hayate, center section is almost a Malcom -sim to a P-51C or Spitfire canopy, (but is more elongated), and the rear portion is similar to that of a P-51D
Option B is :
Anyone out there skilled at doing this that i could send a wooden plug to have fabricated for me ?



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RE: Help With dreating a Quality, clear, and durable wa... - 2/28/2012 10:47 PM   
Chad Veich



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Status: offline 		You make the plug and I can vacuum form the canopy for you No Flaps.

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RE: Help With dreating a Quality, clear, and durable wa... - 2/28/2012 10:53 PM   
NoFlaps


 

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You're the man Chad~


Sean (AKA-noflaps)

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RE: Help With dreating a Quality, clear, and durable wa... - 2/28/2012 11:43 PM   
All Day Dan


 

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Status: offline 		I used Chad's method when I had one to make back in 1970. Had a friend do it. Put the best surface you can on that plug. The slightest imperfection shows up. Dan.

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RE: Help With dreating a Quality, clear, and durable wa... - 2/29/2012 5:07 AM   
Chad Veich



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Status: offline 		Dan is correct that clear parts need a near perfect finish in order to achieve good results. However, I have found that the easiest way to achieve said finish is simply to pull a styrene part over the plug first. Leave the styrene on the plug and then pull the actual clear part over the top of it. This can be done directly over the raw wood/plastic/tooling board/whatever plug with no need for glassing, filling, painting, etc. Just make sure the plug is accurate and does not have any large gouges or imperfections in it No Flaps and I will take care of the rest.

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RE: Help With dreating a Quality, clear, and durable wa... - 2/29/2012 5:08 AM   
mikegordon10



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Status: offline 		This subject brings up an interesting story about making a custom giant scale canopy.
I made a few Giant Scale Seafury canopies a few years back. I made a plug out of plaster of paris from a stock canopy and added a wooden front slope to it to match the 3 view of "Critical Mass", a Reno Racer that I was modeling. This was to be my plug.
Then I built an elaborate frame to hold the lexan to pull over the plug.
When I went to put the frame holding the Lexan in Mama's brand new oven, the first problem that came up was that the frame was too large to fit in the oven.
Then I had to rebuild the frame somewhat smaller to be able to fit in the oven.
So far so good.
I put it in said new stove's oven and heated it up till I thought it was starting to sag so I took it out and tried to pull it over the plug (there was no stinkin' vacuum forming going on just my hands pulling the frame over the plug.)
1st try I didn't get it hot enough to pull it all the way over it.before it cooled off.
2nd try I let it sit in the oven too long and it melted all over mama's new oven. Gawd what a mess.
After cleaning the oven up (it never was the same after this) I was able to produce several canopies. Each one was better than the last and when I stopped they were real close to perfect.
Now a friend has that model AND the last 2 canopies that I thought were usable.
That was the last time I did this.
If the canopy one were trying to make was somewhat smaller this method would work out real easy..
I still have a supply of Lexan if I should ever get the desire to try it again.
That will be a while cause I'm getting smarter with age.
It's a good thing cause as my 18 year old son, Silas says "dad's older than dirt & rocks"


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RE: Help With dreating a Quality, clear, and durable wa... - 3/1/2012 7:33 PM   
jeffp51


 

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RE: Help With dreating a Quality, clear, and durable wa... - 3/1/2012 7:43 PM   
speedracerntrixie


 

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Status: online 		Chad? how big of a canopy can you do? I have need for one that is about 12" long, 7" wide and 10" tall. I have the plug ready as it's the same one I used to make a glass mold from.

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RE: Help With dreating a Quality, clear, and durable wa... - 3/1/2012 8:16 PM   
Chad Veich



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quote:

ORIGINAL: speedracerntrixie

Chad? how big of a canopy can you do? I have need for one that is about 12'' long, 7'' wide and 10'' tall. I have the plug ready as it's the same one I used to make a glass mold from.


The 12" and 7" dimensions should not be a problem but 10 inches is a pretty deep pull. May or may not be an issue depending on the shape. Doesn't cost much to give it a try! Email me at the addy below if you want to discuss it.

cvnkv@aol.com

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RE: Help With dreating a Quality, clear, and durable wa... - 3/1/2012 9:37 PM   
jkpape


 

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Status: offline 		Sean, I thought you sold out of R/C to buy a motorcycle. I'm hoping to have something r/c to ready to fly soon. Can't afford to buy avgas right now;-(


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RE: Help With dreating a Quality, clear, and durable wa... - 3/3/2012 3:52 PM   
sidgates



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chad Veich

Dan is correct that clear parts need a near perfect finish in order to achieve good results. However, I have found that the easiest way to achieve said finish is simply to pull a styrene part over the plug first. Leave the styrene on the plug and then pull the actual clear part over the top of it. This can be done directly over the raw wood/plastic/tooling board/whatever plug with no need for glassing, filling, painting, etc. Just make sure the plug is accurate and does not have any large gouges or imperfections in it No Flaps and I will take care of the rest.


Chad,
Your idea to pull a styrene part first is going to save me a lot of refinish work when I pull my next canopy. I thought I had a very smooth plug for the F-94C canopy mold and the fiber glass cloth weave shows in the clear plastic. I even have the styrene part made because I thought I was going to cut it out for frame of the canopy, but ended up making fiber glass frame on my canopy mold .

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RE: Help With dreating a Quality, clear, and durable wa... - 3/3/2012 5:58 PM   
Chad Veich



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quote:

ORIGINAL: sidgates
Chad,
Your idea to pull a styrene part first is going to save me a lot of refinish work when I pull my next canopy. I thought I had a very smooth plug for the F-94C canopy mold and the fiber glass cloth weave shows in the clear plastic. I even have the styrene part made because I thought I was going to cut it out for frame of the canopy, but ended up making fiber glass frame on my canopy mold .


I can't take credit for the idea sidgates. I first read about it in an article by David Andersen in RCM magazine many years ago. I am happy to pass the idea along however as it works better than just about anything else short of making a production grade plug from Bondo or other similar material. For your plug, which sounds like it is pretty close to perfect already, a very thin styrene pull is all that is needed. If your plug is a little rougher then a thicker pull, say .030-.040 styrene, can be used which gives plenty of "meat" for sanding and polishing out said imperfections prior to pulling the final clear part. Good luck with it!


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RE: Help With dreating a Quality, clear, and durable wa... - 3/3/2012 10:06 PM   
Boomerang1



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Status: offline 		Mike's experiences pulling rather than vac forming canopies is interesting.

I'm building a Macchi 339 & have a canopy plug but the problem is finding
a 'hobby' vac former which can form a 27 inch canopy.

Looking at the canopy it really doesn't have that much double curvature.
I have pull formed little parts like wing tip lights & observation bubbles
but nothing on this scale.

Would it be possible to use a sheet of whatever plastic, make a pair of frames
to weigh down both edges, fold the plastic over the plug (suspended off the bench)
then 'work' the plastic with a heat gun so the weighted edges pull the plastic over
the plug? Thoughts? - John.

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RE: Help With dreating a Quality, clear, and durable wa... - 3/4/2012 1:16 AM   
Chad Veich



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Boomerang1
Would it be possible to use a sheet of whatever plastic, make a pair of frames
to weigh down both edges, fold the plastic over the plug (suspended off the bench)
then 'work' the plastic with a heat gun so the weighted edges pull the plastic over
the plug? Thoughts? - John.


Having never tried it I can't speak with any authority but my gut feeling is that this would not work very well. One of the most important aspects of forming with heat is being able to heat the entire sheet of material evenly. Doing it with a heat gun on such a large scale would probably result in a finished part that was thick in some spots and very thin in others. I have heard of people dipping the plastic in a shallow pan filled with very hot oil which prevents the need for a large oven and also allows for much more working time with the softened material. Never tried it though so can't offer anything in the way of advice.

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RE: Help With dreating a Quality, clear, and durable wa... - 3/4/2012 2:08 AM   
Boomerang1



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quote:

Having never tried it I can't speak with any authority but my gut feeling is that this would not work very well.


I guess all I have to lose is a bit of time & some plastic.

As you can see the curvature is not too ambitious. There's always the option of moulding the 3 sections & supporting it with
scale canopy frames made from aluminium perhaps 1 mm thick. Watch this space!

With a canopy this size my usual methods & vac former aren't an option. - John.

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RE: Help With dreating a Quality, clear, and durable wa... - 3/4/2012 3:15 PM   
Russmall


 

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Status: offline 		Chad, What material do you recommend making the plug from? You mentioned Bondo in one of your posts, so would a plug shaped from balsa wood, with bondo used to fill imperfections make a good plug? RS

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RE: Help With dreating a Quality, clear, and durable wa... - 3/4/2012 8:11 PM   
Chad Veich



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Russmall
Chad, What material do you recommend making the plug from? You mentioned Bondo in one of your posts, so would a plug shaped from balsa wood, with bondo used to fill imperfections make a good plug? RS


Russmall,

I would not recommend trying to fill imperfections in balsa with Bondo. The different densities of the two make blending them together nearly impossible. Instead I would recommend making your balsa plug slightly undersize and coating the entire surface with a layer of Bondo. However, that is really much more work then you need to go through, particularly if you only plan on making one or two parts from the plug. Instead I would recommend making your plug from balsa or medium density fibreboard (MDF) and then using the dual pull method explained above to get the required finish. MDF works great for plugs because it has no grain, carves and sands easily, and is cheap. Balsa generally does not make a good plug because it is too soft and will not hold an edge for more than a couple of pulls. It's fine for soft shapes that don't have any sharp corners but MDF is nearly as easy to work with and is much more durable in my opinion. The bid drawback to MDF is that you will have to laminate multiple layers together to make your plugs as it is only available in sheets up to about one inch thick as far as I'm aware. High density foams such as Renshape are fantastic plug making materials as well but are VERY expensive. They are similar to working with a big chunk of Bondo though and make very nice plugs as the material can be finished to a very high degree. If you need a production grade plug then generally a master is made by whatever method you prefer, then a silicon mold is made of the plug, and finally the actual vacuum forming buck is formed by casting in Bondo or some sort of urethane casting material. Time consuming and expensive but the result is a very durable and very finely finished master. Just FYI, Bondo plugs are generally hollow cast as large quantities of it get EXTREMELY hot during the curing process which can cause all sorts of problems.

< Message edited by Chad Veich -- 3/23/2012 6:26 PM >

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RE: Help With dreating a Quality, clear, and durable wa... - 3/23/2012 5:55 PM   
Scratchie



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Status: offline 		Chad,

I'm considering a scratch build, what do you charge for forming canopies from my plugs?  I'm not sure on the sizes yet, canopies are similar to an 86" B-17.

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RE: Help With dreating a Quality, clear, and durable wa... - 3/23/2012 6:32 PM   
Chad Veich



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scratchie

Chad,

I'm considering a scratch build, what do you charge for forming canopies from my plugs?  I'm not sure on the sizes yet, canopies are similar to an 86'' B-17.


Hard to give any sort of estimate without a bit more information Scratchie but what I can tell you is that the vacuum forming is the easy part. Making the plugs is the time consuming, and thus, expensive part. If you do all the hard work of making the plugs and all I have to do is the actual pulling of the parts themselves then it should not be expensive at all. Particularly so if your parts are relatively small as I imagine they would be on something like an 86" B-17. Shoot me an email at the addy below if you would like to discuss it further.

cwveich@cwvmodels.com

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