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All Forums >> Glow Engines, Gas Engines, Fuel & Mfg Support Forums >> Gas Engines >> RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser?
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[Poll]

Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser?
Yes
  28% (68)
No
  49% (119)
Failed Pickup
  4% (12)
Failed Ignition Module
  17% (43)


Total Votes : 242
(last vote on : 12/13/2012 3:58 AM)
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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 9/28/2012 3:57 AM   
MercerAUST


 

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Status: offline 		I've never had an ignition go on a RC gas engine, but it went on my car the other day and cost $700 to replace.

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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/1/2012 5:12 PM   
ejames7699


 

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Status: offline 		Anyone that's familiar with gassers, how would I know if my Hall sensor is bad, I imagine the engine won't start but how
Would I know if its the sensor or the ignition module ?

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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/1/2012 5:43 PM   
captinjohn


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ejames7699

Anyone that's familiar with gassers, how would I know if my Hall sensor is bad, I imagine the engine won't start but how
Would I know if its the sensor or the ignition module ?

Simple....try a different Hall sensor and if ignition works...the sensor was bad.  It is good to have a extra sensor anyway.  About $7... and is sure worth it when you need one!     Capt,n   PS  I keep 2-3 extra on hand.

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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/1/2012 6:08 PM  1 votes
av8tor1977



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Status: offline 		Posted by Jodi and copied from the Sticky at the beginning of this forum:

It was requested that I post this troubleshooting guide for Rcexl and many C&H ignitions here in this thread. If you have no spark or think you are having an ignition problem, carefully following this guide will test the ignition module, hall sensor, and spark plug cap components. This guide can be used for single or twin cylinder ignitions, it does not test the manual or any optical ignition switches that may be in the system. You will need a good fully charged 4 cell Nicad or Nimh battery, an old servo extension, and your trusty volt meter. So,......


Take an old expendable servo extension and cut off the male plug end, separate the wires, strip a bit of insulation from each of the 3 leads and plug the other end into the sensor lead on the ignition module.

Put a good spark plug in the cap, doesn't need to be all the way seated but far enough for the hex of the plug to make good contact with the metal shell of the plug cap, plug a fully charged 4 cell battery directly into the ignition.

Test for battery voltage at the red and black wires of the test extension you made and plugged into the sensor lead of the module, if there is no voltage replace the module, if there is battery voltage->

Short the white and black wires together, every time you break this connection there should be a spark, no or intermittent spark=bad module, has good spark->

Remove the test lead and plug the sensor on the engine into the module and turn the engine over, no spark, replace the sensor, good spark->

Remove the spark plug, look down into the plug cap and turn the engine over, if you see spark arcing through the silicone boot to the metal shell, replace the spark plug cap, no visible spark but you hear a snap->

Put a small screw driver into the bottom of the cap, turn the engine over and you should observe spark jumping from the screw driver to the plug cap shell outside of the silicone boot, an arc of about 1/4"-3/8", if it does this there is nothing wrong with the ignition, if you hear an arc but it's not in the cap with the screw driver, it could be a problem with the resistor in the cap or the high tension lead where it goes into the cap, replace the plug cap.

All of this can be done on a bench, the plug does not need to be grounded to the engine.

Good luck!

AV8TOR

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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/1/2012 7:15 PM   
Ernie Misner



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Status: offline 		At the end here Jodi mentions that the plug does not have to be grounded to the engine. Has something changed? Several years ago people were saying that if you tested your ignition and failed to ground the plug to the engine that it would definitely damage the ignition unit and it would be ruined. Was this just with some early ignition units?

Thanks, Ernie Misner

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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/1/2012 8:06 PM   
rexbirk


 

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Status: offline 		The engines we use are not grounded. Touching the plug to the engine makes no difference. The return path for the high voltage is thru the metal braid around the outside of the plug wire.

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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/1/2012 10:28 PM   
av8tor1977



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quote:

ORIGINAL: rexbirk

The engines we use are not grounded. Touching the plug to the engine makes no difference. The return path for the high voltage is thru the metal braid around the outside of the plug wire.


This is true for the RCEXL and other systems that have a stainless steel braid over the plug wire and a metal plug cap. If you are working with a CH Ignitions system, the procedure is the same, but the plug MUST be grounded to the engine. If not, you won't get a spark, and you will cause damage to the ignition.

AV8TOR

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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/1/2012 11:54 PM   
Ernie Misner



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Status: offline 		Ahh haaa, thanks, AV8TOR. So no metal braid over the plug wire = damage to the ignition unit if you check for spark without grounding the plug on the engine. Still it seems like some sort of safe guard should be built in so the damage won't occur. That reminds me of the early transistor amplifiers that would go up in smoke if you turned them on with no speakers hooked up. It's just an accident waiting for a place to happen

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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/2/2012 2:01 AM   
captinjohn


 

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Status: offline 		Ernie....is that a U-Control airplane in your avistar photo?

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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/2/2012 3:45 AM   
MercerAUST


 

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Status: offline 		The old Saito branded ignition (for use in Saito gas 4-strokes) had both the outer braided wire and an earth lead connected to the engine. I suppose there is no harm in redundancy if the cost is not excessive.



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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/2/2012 4:40 AM   
Charlie P.



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quote:

ORIGINAL: STUKA BARRY

If your worried about ignition failures, then go magneto. Zenoah and Quadra are still some of the most reliable engines on the market today.


Like Stuka says: zero failures to date with my Zenoah and Fuji magneto ingition gassers.


None with my Fuji EI either, though.  ;-)

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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/2/2012 4:56 AM   
Ernie Misner



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Status: offline 		John, that's an OMP Edge profile in my avatar with a Saito 82 on it. It's inverted and coming right at the camera man. Actually it's a trick where you have 2 people support the plane by the wing tips while the engine is idling. They do that for cover shots on magazines.

Charlie P., you have the wildest avatar! Did you get a bad shock from those darn magnetos or?

Ernie

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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/2/2012 7:54 AM   
flycatch


 

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Status: offline 		My ignition went out and it cost me $80.00 for an after market unit. That equates to ten OS #8 glow plugs. You average about one plug a year and you will wear the engine out sooner than ten years. I tried gas but to be honest they generate too much vibration and I don't like the smell of gasoline. I own and operate three models powered by OS 1.6 FX glow engines and I can afford the cost of glow fuel. If you are considering planes above the 16 lb category than gas is your only option. The size of the model and the cost of gasoline herald in the gasoline engine.

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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/2/2012 12:34 PM   
RiverLarry


 

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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/2/2012 3:01 PM   
MTK



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quote:

ORIGINAL: av8tor1977


This is true for the RCEXL and other systems that have a stainless steel braid over the plug wire and a metal plug cap. If you are working with a CH Ignitions system, the procedure is the same, but the plug MUST be grounded to the engine. If not, you won't get a spark, and you will cause damage to the ignition.

AV8TOR


I have a couple units purchased recently directly from Bill Carpenter. They have a braided cable to the plug. Are you saying that these units will be damaged unless the plug is grounded to the engine?

TIA


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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/2/2012 3:38 PM   
captinjohn


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RiverLarry

Capt J Ck with me I  can show you how to CK   boath  Pick up  and    box       on plane       R/L

I have a  varibleRPM ignition tester where you can unplug the pickup and plug in the RPM tester/simulator and make the ignitio run.  If it will not ...the ignition is bad. There is a way too I think too short out 2 leads on the Pickup lead and that will also fire the ignition...if is good.  If it does not fire....its bad...so they say.  There may be more ways...good too post them all....and make it a sticky!  Capt,n

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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/2/2012 5:09 PM   
lopflyers


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hobby_man


quote:

ORIGINAL: BadAzzMaxx

I guarantee you that you will spend more on glow plugs than what will be spent on ignitions.

Milton



I have glow plugs that are 8 years old in the same engine




And I have seeing glow plugs blow after one flight.



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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/2/2012 6:08 PM   
grassie



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From: CenturionGauteng, SOUTH AFRICA
Status: offline 		 My DLA 112 ignition started acting up about a month ago. The engine would suddently start missing, it never died though. Replaced plugs, cleaned carb, tried everything else and in the end replaced the ignition with the new version 7.4V
Well, I had 4 flights since and it's perfect.

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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/2/2012 6:24 PM   
av8tor1977



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quote:

ORIGINAL: MTK


quote:

ORIGINAL: av8tor1977


This is true for the RCEXL and other systems that have a stainless steel braid over the plug wire and a metal plug cap. If you are working with a CH Ignitions system, the procedure is the same, but the plug MUST be grounded to the engine. If not, you won't get a spark, and you will cause damage to the ignition.

AV8TOR


I have a couple units purchased recently directly from Bill Carpenter. They have a braided cable to the plug. Are you saying that these units will be damaged unless the plug is grounded to the engine?

TIA


I believe the newest, recently released CH units are grounded through the braid they now have on the plug, but it sure wouldn't hurt to ask Bill to be certain. Let us know please. (Adrian, the guy that took over CH would probably know what type of unit Bill sold you as well.....)

AV8TOR

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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/2/2012 7:32 PM   
MTK



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Status: online 		Thanks....no additional grounding required, it's already grounded.

BTW- one unit is rated for 7.4 volts and is about 15% lighter than the other (which is rated at 6 volts)


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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/2/2012 8:00 PM   
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Status: offline 		I think even the very cheap units are very reliable, maybe there should be a poll on which brands have failed.
Then we could see if one fails more then another.
Also people with problems should state what kind of batteries they use and if they have a regulator or diode to lower the voltage.

I believe many problems come from overpowering the module.

Some manufacturers have seen the problems users where causing and put a regulator inside the ignition boxes.

They are very few problems if they are treated and installed right. Sure they can fail any time, even if everything is set up perfect.

When we compare the operating costs to glow engines, we need to put in all costs - not only glow plugs.
Gassers are used on bigger planes - fuel costs are a huge factor here. Some people here drive about an hour to the next LHS, consider that and you'll find the gas engines to be a lot cheaper.


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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/2/2012 8:20 PM   
OldScaleGuy



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Status: online 		I purchased a 3W-150 that had not been ran. It sat for about 5 years while i was spending way to much time building the plane it is in. When it came time to start it, i could not get it to run at all. I sent in the entire thing to Aircraft International. First of all the magnet was sitting too low, below flush with the hub surface. They fixed that and of course charged me accordingly but said the engine was running great. So back on the plane it went and then could only get it to run on one cylinder. Changing the plug wires equated to changing which cylinder fired and which one didn't. So I got in touch with Milton at RcExl and purchased a new ignition module and sensor and now it is running great. Not only did i get a bad magnet improperly set, i got a bad ignition on a new/old engine and it cost me a large amount of money to get this engine running. I am not bitter at all in case you can't tell..... Even new ones can be bad from the beginning. Now i understand why the previous owner said he had never ran the engine...

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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/2/2012 10:10 PM   
MTK



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Status: online 		For my application, I have a good handle on what my operating and maintenance cost for my OS33GT. I use a 330 ml tank which gives me about 18 minutes of running time.... Five gallons of gas, in my case, Avgas, and a bottle of oil costs about $37.50. Five gallons of avgas will fly my model approximately 55 flights or about 16 1/2 hours. I fly about 15 gallons worth of avgas per year, which is about 50 hours

My maintenance cost has been zero...but watch, it will now go up. Nah! I can't influence the gods that much. So, operating cost plus maintenance cost is about $2.25 per hour

Anyway, for exactly the same application, a fellow competitor uses the YS170 4 stroke which drinks 25% Cool Power Heli blend at 30$ a gallon. Except he uses a 24 oz tank and flies for about 13 minutes per tank

Five gallons of Cool Power will fly his model 27 flights or approximately 6 hours of operating time. He will average about 25 gallons of flying per year. He has to rebuild his engine every year at an average cost of 150$. Therefore adding the cost of fuel and maintenance, his cost is around $900 per year to fly about 30 hours. Therefore, his operating cost plus maintenance cost per hour is about $30/hour. I exclude any glow plugs here which cost about 8$ a piece and also exclude initial purchase price of each powerplant which includes their exhaust systems.

There is more than a 10X smaller expenditure to operate and maintain the OS33 GT gas engine compared to a YS170 4 stroke. I chose those two specifically because they put out very similar power and have ideal handling and power curves for the type of flying I do


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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/2/2012 11:31 PM   
av8tor1977



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quote:

ORIGINAL: OliverJacob

I think even the very cheap units are very reliable, maybe there should be a poll on which brands have failed.
Then we could see if one fails more then another.
Also people with problems should state what kind of batteries they use and if they have a regulator or diode to lower the voltage.

I believe many problems come from overpowering the module.

Some manufacturers have seen the problems users where causing and put a regulator inside the ignition boxes.

They are very few problems if they are treated and installed right. Sure they can fail any time, even if everything is set up perfect.

When we compare the operating costs to glow engines, we need to put in all costs - not only glow plugs.
Gassers are used on bigger planes - fuel costs are a huge factor here. Some people here drive about an hour to the next LHS, consider that and you'll find the gas engines to be a lot cheaper.



The ones I have read about the most failures and problems with are the blue box ones that come with Turnigy and XYZ engines. I agree, most of the failures of other systems have been operator caused, usually due to high voltage being used.

The CH Ignitions systems are pretty much universally known to be the best. CH collaborated with RCEXL to update their ignitions before CH would agree to import and sell them. So the RCEXL ignitions are theoretically as good as CH, though the quality control would probably not be as good and an occasional bad one might slip through...

AV8TOR

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RE: Have You Had Ignition Failures On Your Gasser? - 10/3/2012 12:48 AM   
jp1961


 

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Status: offline 		No failures with my Zenoah G-20. I'd say it runs like a Swiss watch, but my dad had a Swiss watch and it broke.

Jeff

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