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electronic speed control - 3/8/2012 3:34 AM   
Franco2fly


 

Posts: 629
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From: Springfield, VA, USA
Status: offline 		Quick question,
Has anyone been able to get reliable read-outs of RPM from a Spektrum Electronic Brushless sensor......

I have not, using a G-32 600kv motor and a Dynam 60 ESC w/BEC (14x12 prop)

I can get correct readings if I spin the electric motor with a Nitro Starter motor all powered up but no juice to the Motor from the ESC.

And, here's the kicker, while the Dx8 will read out correctly using this oddball method, the STi application does NOT read correctly!

When running normally, the Dx8 reads approximately 20 times faster than the motor is spinning.

Open to the wildest guesses.

KKKKFL


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RE: electronic speed control - 3/9/2012 2:39 AM   
chuckk2


 

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From: Warner Robins, GA, USA
Status: offline 		I had similar problems, and at least partially cured them by running the sense leads through a ferrite core.
I had to say partial, because under load, the switching spikes seem to still be enough to cause false readings.
The real issue is that I no longer have access to instrumentation (oscilloscopes) and no data on the cores, so trial and error is my only out.

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RE: electronic speed control - 3/9/2012 12:11 PM   
Franco2fly


 

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From: Springfield, VA, USA
Status: offline 		Here's the key...  and it has to do with getting the Pole/magnet count set in numerous places. 

You need to set it in the DX8... hold the roller button down, turn power on,  scroll to Telemetry, select RPM, enter in the poles, and the ratio... (usually 1:1)  Next you need to set the count in the STi if you are going to read RPM's there...  Same thing, it's done in the Setup screen, just scroll down and enter the data.  Next, AND I'VE NOT Seen this Documented anywhere, you need to set the pole count in YOUR ESC...  yup, the ESC also matters, and you may not find this feature in el Cheapo ESC's... 

I did find reference to Poles in the 60 amp E-flight ESC, and once I got the ESC properly programmed my read out problems disappeared.  Typically, the ESC's i've purchased  refer to soft or hard start, but in E-flights ESC, they talk about degrees of timing, and POLES, they give settings for 5 different degree settings, and reference the number of poles that each will support.  Personally, I think the brushless electronic sensor RPM has a ways to go, but it does work.

KKKKFL

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RE: electronic speed control - 3/10/2012 5:20 AM   
chuckk2


 

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From: Warner Robins, GA, USA
Status: offline 		You would think that E-Flight speed controls are defaulted to work properly with E-flight motors such as the power 32. There is conflicting data as to the number of poles in E-Flight motors (12 or 14) The Power 25 I have has 14 wound poles, and the 32, 46, and 52 12 wound poles.

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RE: electronic speed control - 3/10/2012 2:44 PM   
AndyKunz


 

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From: White Heath, IL, USA
Status: offline 		There is not a hard line to cross when moving from one pole count to another. These are curves. The defaults are generally appropriate, but depending on which motor you get there might be a better setting. This is why they have a programming mode, so that you as a consumer can select and find what's best in your application. Every motor is different from every other motor, too, but not so much that it will move the output curve very much.

Back when I was racing we would sort armatures and cans to get better RPM or torque, depending on the hull (which are all different, too). What may have worked well in boat A might not have done as well in boat B, even though A and B were pulled from the same mold. That's why we had to constantly test and refine and retest!

BTW, if you can find a copy of the E-Flite software and dongle, it's a heck of a lot easier to program your ESC via the PC than using the stick. On my own ESC design I totally skipped the stick-based programming and did it only by PC before Castle came out with it as an option.

Andy

_____________________________

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RE: electronic speed control - 3/12/2012 10:40 AM   
chuckk2


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AndyKunz

There is not a hard line to cross when moving from one pole count to another. These are curves. The defaults are generally appropriate, but depending on which motor you get there might be a better setting. This is why they have a programming mode, so that you as a consumer can select and find what's best in your application. Every motor is different from every other motor, too, but not so much that it will move the output curve very much.

Back when I was racing we would sort armatures and cans to get better RPM or torque, depending on the hull (which are all different, too). What may have worked well in boat A might not have done as well in boat B, even though A and B were pulled from the same mold. That's why we had to constantly test and refine and retest!

BTW, if you can find a copy of the E-Flite software and dongle, it's a heck of a lot easier to program your ESC via the PC than using the stick. On my own ESC design I totally skipped the stick-based programming and did it only by PC before Castle came out with it as an option.

Andy


Unfortunately, the E-Flite programming "dongle" used a P/C serial port. Most newer P/Cs (desktop,laptop) don't have a "true" serial port. PS/2 ports (also fading away) are a form of serial port, but are typically are software supported for only keyboard/mouse type uses.
Adapters may or may not work. Next, it's no longer available, unless you can find old stock somewhere.
A competitor offers a stand alone programmer for it's speed controls for $9.95. Unfortunately, the speed controls and programmer are currently out of stock.

It's quite a pain to program many speed controls via the throttle channel. You always wonder if you got everything right. Did I count the tones correctly, was I in the right "slot" to change what I wanted to change, etc.


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RE: electronic speed control - 3/12/2012 2:57 PM   
BuschBarber


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckk2


quote:

ORIGINAL: AndyKunz

There is not a hard line to cross when moving from one pole count to another. These are curves. The defaults are generally appropriate, but depending on which motor you get there might be a better setting. This is why they have a programming mode, so that you as a consumer can select and find what's best in your application. Every motor is different from every other motor, too, but not so much that it will move the output curve very much.

Back when I was racing we would sort armatures and cans to get better RPM or torque, depending on the hull (which are all different, too). What may have worked well in boat A might not have done as well in boat B, even though A and B were pulled from the same mold. That's why we had to constantly test and refine and retest!

BTW, if you can find a copy of the E-Flite software and dongle, it's a heck of a lot easier to program your ESC via the PC than using the stick. On my own ESC design I totally skipped the stick-based programming and did it only by PC before Castle came out with it as an option.

Andy


Unfortunately, the E-Flite programming ''dongle'' used a P/C serial port. Most newer P/Cs (desktop,laptop) don't have a ''true'' serial port. PS/2 ports (also fading away) are a form of serial port, but are typically are software supported for only keyboard/mouse type uses.
Adapters may or may not work. Next, it's no longer available, unless you can find old stock somewhere.
A competitor offers a stand alone programmer for it's speed controls for $9.95. Unfortunately, the speed controls and programmer are currently out of stock.

It's quite a pain to program many speed controls via the throttle channel. You always wonder if you got everything right. Did I count the tones correctly, was I in the right ''slot'' to change what I wanted to change, etc.


I like Castle Creations ESC's and BEC's. They are easy to program, either with a Field Programmer or a PC. Jeti ESC's have a credit card sized programmer with numerous jumpers to reset all the parameters. I have programmed my early CC Phoenix ESC's with the Throttle stick. That is when I learned not to attach the Prop until I had the Throttle under control. My programming sheet was sucked into the prop and cut to pieces, while programming.

_____________________________

Rich
byronf16@gmail.com

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RE: electronic speed control - 3/12/2012 3:32 PM   
AndyKunz


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckk2

Unfortunately, the E-Flite programming ''dongle'' used a P/C serial port. Most newer P/Cs (desktop,laptop) don't have a ''true'' serial port. PS/2 ports (also fading away) are a form of serial port, but are typically are software supported for only keyboard/mouse type uses.


I use a standard USB/Serial adapter cable on my machines to program the EFL ESCs. It's based on the ubiquitous FTDI chip.

Andy


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RE: electronic speed control - 3/12/2012 5:18 PM   
Franco2fly


 

Posts: 629
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From: Springfield, VA, USA
Status: offline 		We're a Macintosh family... kids with laptops, iPads, iPhones, I have a desktop iMac... does the program work with Mac?  Isn't there an E-flight programming card?

I hate the throttle toggle method.   I also heard from the Far East (HK) that my Turnigy G-32 motor has 12 poles, not 14 as previously reported.  Everything is set for 14 at the moment (Dx8, ESC, and STi), and I am less than pleased with the RPM electronic read out....  It's still all over the place, doesn't even start to read until the throttle has the prop spinning at 4000+ but then will read down to 3700 somewhat...  I'll give the programming another shot before I totally drop the electronic read out and start hobbyshopping the Optical reader that I'm awaiting from the U.S. mail.

KKKKFL

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RE: electronic speed control - 3/12/2012 6:24 PM   
BuschBarber


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franco2fly

We're a Macintosh family... kids with laptops, iPads, iPhones, I have a desktop iMac... does the program work with Mac?  Isn't there an E-flight programming card?

I hate the throttle toggle method.   I also heard from the Far East (HK) that my Turnigy G-32 motor has 12 poles, not 14 as previously reported.  Everything is set for 14 at the moment (Dx8, ESC, and STi), and I am less than pleased with the RPM electronic read out....  It's still all over the place, doesn't even start to read until the throttle has the prop spinning at 4000+ but then will read down to 3700 somewhat...  I'll give the programming another shot before I totally drop the electronic read out and start hobbyshopping the Optical reader that I'm awaiting from the U.S. mail.

KKKKFL


I have always counted the Poles by looking in the Front of the motor. It should not be a mystery.

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byronf16@gmail.com

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RE: electronic speed control - 3/12/2012 6:49 PM   
AndyKunz


 

Posts: 1455
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From: White Heath, IL, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franco2fly

We're a Macintosh family... kids with laptops, iPads, iPhones, I have a desktop iMac... does the program work with Mac?  Isn't there an E-flight programming card?


I'm sorry to hear that.

If you run Windows on your Mac, it probably would work. It runs under Linux using WINE.

Andy


_____________________________

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Spektrum Development Team

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RE: electronic speed control - 3/12/2012 7:45 PM   
fizzwater2


 

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Status: offline 		Lots of things go better with wine..



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RE: electronic speed control - 3/13/2012 3:43 AM   
chuckk2


 

Posts: 369
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From: Warner Robins, GA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BuschBarber


quote:

ORIGINAL: Franco2fly

We're a Macintosh family... kids with laptops, iPads, iPhones, I have a desktop iMac... does the program work with Mac?  Isn't there an E-flight programming card?

I hate the throttle toggle method.   I also heard from the Far East (HK) that my Turnigy G-32 motor has 12 poles, not 14 as previously reported.  Everything is set for 14 at the moment (Dx8, ESC, and STi), and I am less than pleased with the RPM electronic read out....  It's still all over the place, doesn't even start to read until the throttle has the prop spinning at 4000+ but then will read down to 3700 somewhat...  I'll give the programming another shot before I totally drop the electronic read out and start hobbyshopping the Optical reader that I'm awaiting from the U.S. mail.

KKKKFL


I have always counted the Poles by looking in the Front of the motor. It should not be a mystery.


I'd agree that counting the wound poles is the most accepted way to do things. But, given that the magnet count may be higher, I suspect some may be listing the magnet count.
The low rpm count problem is also something I'm experiencing. Since I just setup a motor test stand, I guess I'll have to play with things. I had things looking good with no load (no prop) on the motor. When the prop was added, the reading went squirrelly (intermittently high) I wonder if a small wound coil connected to the sense leads, and positioned near the just outside the rotating case (magnets inside) might work. Otherwise an optical sensor might be the best bet.

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RE: electronic speed control - 3/27/2012 5:56 AM   
chuckk2


 

Posts: 369
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From: Warner Robins, GA, USA
Status: offline 		"My programming sheet was sucked into the prop and cut to pieces, while programming."
I managed to blow a TX off the bench, bending two switch handles! The programmer would be the best way to go, if it was still available.
I'm about to give up on E-Flite ESCs as a result of price and no available programmer, not to mention the 2-3 Amp BEC output.


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