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Fabric Runways ? - 3/9/2012 6:28 PM   
highhorse


 

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From: Memphis, TN, USA
Status: offline 		My club is exploring the use of fabrics (GEOTEXTILE. One brand is CONTECH) which lay over grass to form a runway, and is looking for reports of other clubs' experiences please.

The two major concerns thus far seem to be wear and tear from prop strikes and jet exhaust (i.e. Kingcats etc).


Feedback appreciated, thanks!

Don Ray.

< Message edited by highhorse -- 3/9/2012 7:22 PM >

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/9/2012 7:03 PM   
STKNRUD


 

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From: Tehachapi, CA, USA
Status: offline 		The only "fabric" I know that is being used as a runway surface is Petromat. I have never heard of it being laid over grass. Once it is stapled down, it will stretch tight which I think would form a very undesirable trampoline like surface for a runway if laid over grass. And when the grass died or weeds, gophers came up under it, you would have a very uneven surface.

Petromat requires a very well prepared subsurface to work for any length of time and not have humps and bumps in it after water collects after a few winters, gophers attack, etc. I would not recommend Petromat over grass or even a subsurface that was once grass unless you did a very complete grass kill and subsurface prep.

Prop strikes are a problem for Petromat as are down-thrust jets. You can fly a down-thrust engine on it without issue but it requires the diligent consideration by the pilot...no start or run-ups on it, keep it moving after touch down and taxi-back and an immediate shutdown if you have a gear collapse.

The advantage to Petromat, if asphalt is not an option, is that it does shorten the roll-outs, is less expensive and maybe less daily maintenance than grass. However, you should look carefully at the repeated replacement cost of the Petromat. Depending on climate and thickness of the material (there is a variety of thicknesses) they may only last a few years.

I presume that asphalt is not being considered. If the grass was a good surface for planes, I would almost recommend staying with it over trying to cover it. It is a lot easier to fix if you have a hump or mound. For the most part, Petormat is used only where asphalt is not possible and you only have dirt.

George

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/9/2012 7:08 PM   
ianober



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quote:

ORIGINAL: STKNRUD

The only ''fabric'' I know that is being used as a runway surface is Petromat. I have never heard of it being laid over grass. Once it is stapled down, it will stretch tight which I think would form a very undesirable trampoline like surface for a runway if laid over grass. And when the grass died or weeds, golfers came up under it, you would have a very uneven surface.

Petromat requires a very well prepared subsurface to work for any length of time and not have humps and bumps in it after water collects after a few winters, golfers attack, etc. I would not recommend Petromat over grass or even a subsurface that was once grass unless you did a very complete grass kill and subsurface prep.

George



Man, watch out for those golfers, they will swing those clubs and throw their balls at you!!

I can only assume you meant gophers?

One of the first clubs I flew at used astro-turf. I loved it!!! If you can find a place that is replacing theirs and you can get it for free then great, if not, PRICEY!!!

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/9/2012 7:12 PM   
STKNRUD


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for the spell check.

George

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/9/2012 7:26 PM   
Dr Honda



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From: Latrobe, PA, USA
Status: offline 		I fly a grass field, and if it's maintained... it's not to bad. We roll it a couple times a year, and it gets mowed every week during the summer. It's kept like the short grass on a golf course. I can even fly my little electric's off of it.

I don't think any fabric will be worth the time and effort. (for the expense) AND... I don't think it will live very long.


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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/9/2012 7:51 PM   
two dogs


 

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Status: offline 		Don, 6 of us jet guys built a 600X60 runway using a heavy duty filter cloth used in highway construction. The product name is Mirafi FW404...it is made in Georgia... Google the product to find a vendor in your area

We built the runway 8 years ago and it has held up pretty well thru the harsh Fla sun and a couple hurricanes. King Cat and Bob Cat engines must have the down thrust greatly reduced to keep from burning the fabric......most other models do fine.

Flying off this fabric is like flying off grass without the dirt/sand. Our cost was about $6000.....

There are some tricks to laying the runway down to get a good smooth surface and to keep it on the ground.

The "best part" is, due to low cost we were able to make it a private "jets only field" ..... and we banned props.....to dangerous!!

if you want more info
727 542 0240

Dave Carter

St. Petersburg, Florida

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/9/2012 8:20 PM   
STKNRUD


 

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Status: offline 		Petromat and Mirafi are virtually the same product used for the same purpose in asphalt overlays. Just different brands. For road construction, tests should no difference in performance. I doubt there is any difference you would notice as a runway material.

George

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/9/2012 10:18 PM   
kirkj


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: two dogs

Don, 6 of us jet guys built a 600X60 runway using a heavy duty filter cloth used in highway construction. The product name is Mirafi FW404...it is made in Georgia... Google the product to find a vendor in your area

We built the runway 8 years ago and it has held up pretty well thru the harsh Fla sun and a couple hurricanes. King Cat and Bob Cat engines must have the down thrust greatly reduced to keep from burning the fabric......most other models do fine.

Flying off this fabric is like flying off grass without the dirt/sand. Our cost was about $6000.....

There are some tricks to laying the runway down to get a good smooth surface and to keep it on the ground.

The ''best part'' is, due to low cost we were able to make it a private ''jets only field'' ..... and we banned props.....to dangerous!!

if you want more info
727 542 0240

Dave Carter

St. Petersburg, Florida


Our club is voting on this very subject next meeting...it should pass the vote. will you please expand on your ground preperation advise?
we did visit one local club that has is down for 3 years now and it looks great. according to them they simply drug a fence to level and kill the grass, filled in low spots with sand and staked it down, tucking the ends on all 4 sides into a trench, and glued the seams with roofing cement. there were many spots from prop strikes that simply had a patch glued on.

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/9/2012 10:36 PM   
JackD



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quote:

ORIGINAL: highhorse

My club is exploring the use of fabrics (GEOTEXTILE. One brand is CONTECH) which lay over grass to form a runway, and is looking for reports of other clubs' experiences please.

The two major concerns thus far seem to be wear and tear from prop strikes and jet exhaust (i.e. Kingcats etc).


Feedback appreciated, thanks!

Don Ray.



Our club (Woodland/Davis) went to petromat over a year ago and it seems to be holding fine. The key seemed to be doing a very good prep work on the surface before laying down the petromat. I just helped laying it down, but Dan Avilla and Jeff Lovitt (both in the forum) did a lot of the prep work. You might want to contact them, I'm pretty sure they can give you great advice

The end result is great. it is a little slower than asphalt, but is much more forgiving if you have a wingtip scrape or gear up landing. The biggest limitation seems to be the dowthrust planes like bobcat...



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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/9/2012 11:33 PM   
highhorse


 

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Status: offline 		If the stuff is gonna get toasted by the BVM "cats" etc then we will probably pass... Scorching some grass is no biggie, because the grass repairs itself in a week!

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/10/2012 12:49 AM   
Xairflyer



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Status: offline 		Funny how everyone refers to it as down thrust when effectively it is up thrust ! The exhaust gases may be pointing down but the thrust is up

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/10/2012 1:22 AM   
JackD



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xairflyer

Funny how everyone refers to it as down thrust when effectively it is up thrust ! The exhaust gases may be pointing down but the thrust is up


Semantics maybe, but it makes the plane go down, so I would consider it down thrust.


Back to petromat....

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/10/2012 1:44 AM   
dsr71


 

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From: vacaville, CA, USA
Status: offline 		actually the product woodland has is geotech mat it has better uv resistance than petromat which i think is designed to be and underlayment for roads,,i agree with the other here that the ground need to be stablized and packed well before the mat is used or you will have the hidden pot holes ,the mat rolls out loose and with a few sunny days tightens up nicely don't be shy with the stakes holding it down ,we went with a stake at least every foot with a 6'' overlap for shrinkage in the centers and folded the edges over a few inches for more holding strength it get very tight after time,,in the end it is working fine dose require patching for prop strikes and turbine exhaust burns ,,but on a good note i show no signs of where on my bvm tires

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/10/2012 3:23 AM   
2walla


 

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Status: offline 		If you already have grass and a means to irrigate it, expend the same amount of money in redoing the grass much happier in the long run.. If you are flying off of scrub that you cant get the water to irrigation. Geotextile is better than nothing but it is not maintenance free......... The owner of a local hobby shop here put in a geotextile runway and it was good for a while but all of the gophers digging under it made a lot of lumps.. It was ok for a .40 glow plane but larger scale gas planes could get bounced around a lot and it sucks to break a 75 prop on a perfect landing when you hit a gopher track you cant see under the geotextile...

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/10/2012 3:52 AM   
STKNRUD


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2walla
It was ok for a .40 glow plane but larger scale gas planes could get bounced around a lot and it sucks to break a 75 prop on a perfect landing when you hit a gopher track you cant see under the geotextile...


Even worse when your jet, just after touch down, gets launched about 3 feet in the air from a hidden hump. Don't ask me how I know.

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/10/2012 4:31 AM   
Kenrico


 

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Status: offline 		i like the idea they used on the field in this video, no idea on cost but it is re usable if you ever have to change the field location.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J6tPhQMD2k

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/10/2012 5:16 AM   
rv9-a


 

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Status: offline 		If your club happens to be in the vicinity of a paper mill you can ask them what they do with their used dryer felts. They are made of a synthetic material and can vary in widths and lengths depending on the paper machine. The felts off the machines at the mill I retired from went to several area R/C clubs.

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/10/2012 2:20 PM   
aghost



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Status: online 		kirkj: We just recently replaced our petromat runway. This one had been in service since 2004. here is a link to pictures of that activity. Saturday we pulled up the old runway material. Sunday we laid down the new. Our runway is about 470' x 46'. We do not have any jets flying off the runway.

Our first petromat runway was installed in 1999.


https://picasaweb.google.com/108119852815191614003/BrianSARKSAlbum?feat=email

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/10/2012 3:24 PM   
aa1a


 

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Status: offline 		We put our petromat runway in about 6 years ago. We are going to replace it later in the spring. It is 40 feet wide. We used two 20' wide rolls overlapped and staked in the middle. The stakes were less of a problem than expected but we've found a way to sew the petromat so the stakes will be gone when we replace it. We did a very fine gravel underneath and rented a roller and rolled it. Prop strikes are a problem and we have a patching guy that patches monthly. We are on a very slight slope and despite a lot of effort to improve drainage, we have a problem with the gravel washing out leaving ruts under the petromat. They are more of a tripping hazard than anything else. We have no jet flyers so I can't comment on that. We have the drying belt from a paper mill (mentioned earlier) in our pits. It is also a very nice material. We started laying the material at 7:00 and had a finished runway by noon. Good luck with your project.
Jim

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/10/2012 5:16 PM   
qwerty3


 

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Status: offline 		As far as flying off of it - I've found the petromat (or similar) to be rather slippery. A good grass runway is a lot more forgiving for sport-type airplanes on takeoffs - it's easier to keep the plane going in a straight line. For a heli, the petromat is slippery enough to let the machine swivel around on spool-up. The main advantage (over grass) is, of course, for scale-sized wheeled airplanes.

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/10/2012 6:52 PM   
highhorse


 

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Status: offline 		Lots of good info. Thanks guys.

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/11/2012 1:26 AM   
hobby_man


 

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ours is a belt from a pulp mill, we have aglime graded out under it for a base

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/11/2012 4:45 AM   
sideshow



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xairflyer

Funny how everyone refers to it as down thrust when effectively it is up thrust ! The exhaust gases may be pointing down but the thrust is up



The thrust on a Bobcat/Kingcat is pointed down...is it not?

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/11/2012 5:59 AM   
STKNRUD


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xairflyer

Funny how everyone refers to it as down thrust when effectively it is up thrust ! The exhaust gases may be pointing down but the thrust is up



Can't tell you how much I appreciate the info. Now I know why my jet won't fly...I had the engine in backwards.

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RE: Fabric Runways ? - 3/11/2012 11:52 AM   
Xairflyer



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quote:

ORIGINAL: sideshow


quote:

ORIGINAL: Xairflyer

Funny how everyone refers to it as down thrust when effectively it is up thrust ! The exhaust gases may be pointing down but the thrust is up



The thrust on a Bobcat/Kingcat is pointed down...is it not?

Yes the rear of the turbine is pointed down but remember the front is up, Thrust is a reactive force which means which direction it moves, think on a rocket pointing up the stuff out the back makes it go up so the thrust is up.
"To thrust up" to "thrust forward" etc.

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