Why do RC batteries require so much care? (Full Version)

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greenboot -> Why do RC batteries require so much care? (8/29/2003 11:43:22 PM)

Lots of people use batteries. Cell phones, laptops, power drills, etc. And none of these people seem worried about their charger. And none of these people have any trouble with the batteries. And they probably didn't pay anything for the charger, it came free with the product.

So why then do RC guys need to buy hundred dollar chargers to constantly discharg their batteries? It's just not making sense to me. I realize the importance of the battery not going dead while flying, but of the hundreds of plane crashes I've seen, the batteries don't seem to be a problem.

Last night I read a plane would inevitably crash if it's (2700maH) battery was charged with a wall wart. Well mine hasn't yet.

Tom (all charged up)




Red Scholefield -> Re: Why do RC batteries require so much care? (8/30/2003 12:20:43 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by greenboot
Lots of people use batteries. Cell phones, laptops, power drills, etc. And none of these people seem worried about their charger. And none of these people have any trouble with the batteries. And they probably didn't pay anything for the charger, it came free with the product.

So why then do RC guys need to buy hundred dollar chargers to constantly discharg their batteries? It's just not making sense to me. I realize the importance of the battery not going dead while flying, but of the hundreds of plane crashes I've seen, the batteries don't seem to be a problem.

Last night I read a plane would inevitably crash if it's (2700maH) battery was charged with a wall wart. Well mine hasn't yet.

Tom (all charged up)
[/QUOTE]

I guess it depends on the severity of the consequences of a battery failing half way through brushing your teeth or halfway through a flight.

You have never seen anyone out fly their batteries, or think they were charged (but they had left the switch on) or had their charger in a switched outlet that was turned off . . . . .




greenboot -> Why do RC batteries require so much care? (8/30/2003 12:41:16 AM)

Red,
I have seen people crash with dead batteries but in none of those cases did I feel the use of a cycler would have helped.

You mentioned three causes of battery depletion. None of those would have been any different if an expensive charger had been used either.

I charge with the charger they gave me and check my battery often between flights. I've only been flying 4 years but have not had to replace anything yet.

I guess the thing I'm uncertain of is the value of cycling packs which of course requires spending a hundred bucks on the charger.

Tom




Fred Marks -> Why do RC batteries require so much care? (8/30/2003 12:53:12 AM)

Greenboot: Your point is a good one and there is a very direct answer. When a manufacturer sells in quantity to an Original Equipment manufacturer (OEM) such as you mention, the situation is quite fixed. One pack, one charger, one use. This had largely been the case with RC systems for 30 years until different battery uses evolved. You bought a four-cell pack for the airplane and an eight - cell pack for the transmitter along with a very fixed wall wart and charged at the so-called ten hout rate. The only concern was that you charge the system overnight before you go out to fly.


However, this has all changed. People (via NASA) became aware that NI cds have memory(or voltage depression; call it what you like) and that reliability and life could be made much better by use of a "cycler". Thus, with ACE R/C, we designed and manufactured some 70,000 Digipace cyclers over some 20 years, followed by the FMA Direct EINSTEIN. I can personally attest to the fact that such a cycler in a time before Digipace would have saved me three airplanes. Fortunately, no injury resulted, but it surely destroyed three airplanes in about ten years. A good cycler will last you many years as I know some still use Digipaces that are 25 years old.


Then, users began to demand the capability to fast charge. Waiting overnight for the pack to charge was no longer acceptable. Now, fast charging brings it's own set of problems.
As long as a battery is charged at its "10 hr rate; C/10) the temperature and pressure in the cell remain in balance. As soon as you exceed the 10 hr rate, presure and temperature in the cell rise as the cell goes into overcharge. Thus, the peak detection charger came into vogue and scads of them have been sold. Cells respond differently to fast charging, particularly Ni MH. So you begin to hear terms like "false peaking"

Enter Electric flight. Now packs never dreamed of in forty different configurations, capacities from 50 mah to 10 AH, Ni cd; Ni MH, SLA, and now Li Po enter the scene. Every one of these offered something new in the way of performance, but each requires specific treatment. All are abused in ways one never dreamed of 30 years ago. As the specification and application has changed, it has become necessary to evlve with them to protect the investment in batteries.

Finally, not all is good about the OEM use. I have seen loads of batteries replaced in OEM applications when it was absolutely unnecessary. The manual for home video cams teaches you to ruin the cells with the direction: "charge the pack overnight, then charge it overnight after each use." After a short time, the pack develops memory, won't run thr cam for more than a short time, and the buyer goes off to pay $65 for a new pack. The OEM smiles all the way to the bank. he doesn't want you to know that the pack could be rejuvenated. If you just took the simple step of deep discharging the pack once a month, that pack would be in use ten years later.


Cheers,
Fred




IronZ -> Why do RC batteries require so much care? (8/30/2003 10:30:44 AM)

Glad to see you here Fred. I love my Supernova! This does bring a question though. What's with all of the good chargers only being able to handle one pack at a time? Is it simply a profit thing or is there some real technical issue? I would think that with the sophisticated technology we have today, handling two or more packs wouldn't really drive up cost. Just curious.




SuperStick -> Why do RC batteries require so much care? (8/30/2003 11:02:09 AM)

I have personally seen 3 aircraft lost to dead batteries and there have been 2 others that I havent seen. THe losses were planes flying off into the great blue and the lawn dart aerobatic move into the dirt. None of the owners owns a cycler and 2 dont own a volt meter and one believes nicads never die. In my opinion if these folks had a least cycled their packs at the start of the season and knew what their batteries were capabale of none of these incidents would have happened.

It also dosent have to be expensive to keep tabs on your packs

Wal warts are very cheap and if you know your mah requirements they can be charged at c 10

hobbico volt meter is say 15 bucks and only takes a few minutes ot use

A einstein charger cycler is 100 bucks

NOw we have say 125 bucks to check the one item that is guarnteed to crash your plane if it fails.

Yes the above does require some planning if you have large packs and probably would be a pain if you wanted to chagre a lot of planes but if you have a lot of planes you probably have a decent aircraft budget and a the cost shouldnt be a problem :D

In my opinion if you dont keep tabs on your batteries, short the charger time required, and dont keep a check or your voltage available begore you get to far below 5 volts the time will come when you get some type of interference and your receiver/traansmitter cant overcome the noise to get a signal or you will out fly your batteries and then it will be I dont know what happened it jjust went crazy or come on lets get in the truck and lets see if we can find my plane.




kadet -> Why do RC batteries require so much care? (8/30/2003 6:12:43 PM)

Greenboot,

If you don't completely charge, and then discharge your batteries on a regular basis (every 1-2 months) using a discharge device that will give you a readout of the mA taken out of the pack during discharge , you will have no idea when a pack is starting to lose capacity or die. Not knowing where you're packs are in capacity is as bad as not knowing if you charged them.




greenboot -> Why do RC batteries require so much care? (8/30/2003 6:48:18 PM)

I finally decided to break down and get a real charger for my big batteries. Hope that makes you all feel better. :)

I have been doing quite well with my wall warts, voltmeter, and resisters. But like many things in life, it's time to move on.

Tom




Fred Marks -> Single output chargers (8/31/2003 8:06:01 AM)

The most obvious rationale for single output fast chargers is, since it is a fast charger, the charger will bring your pack up pretty quickly and you pop on another pack. There are some double ended chargers out there but they are a tad pricey.
There is quite a lot to a peak detector charger , so multiple outputs is not trivial.

We have had a motto for years related to cyclers: it will save its cost in the first aircraft you don't crash!




elevator_up -> Why do RC batteries require so much care? (8/31/2003 6:56:03 PM)

Greenboot,
Yes you are correct we are much more demanding on our battery usage then the general population.
I think there is also the fact of optimization and predictability. Before I had a cycler I would test voltage, fly, test voltage fly, etc, etc. After following the oem instructions, my daily flight times were getting unexpectedly shorter and shorter, and I did not have the facts to understand why. So while yes, you can probably get along without the tools, it gives you more flight time, and a level of confidence in your expectations.

While I now still test, fly, test, fly, etc, it now merely confirms my expectations and allows me to fly as long as I wish to, SAFELY, and with confidence, which is what all this really boils down to (and not cost a fortune in packs) IMHO.

Have fun !




rnlocnil -> RE: Why do RC batteries require so much care? (12/6/2003 5:31:40 PM)

I don't know about you, but I've heard lots of complaints from people about their cell phones or chargers running down faster than they used to. But the device is not destroyed when it does. I have used the RAM Simple Cycler to test my batteries for years. It's quite inexpensive (like less than $20!) and it's probably saved me a couple or more planes because several times I've caught a pack that didn't hold up any more. It is annoying to use because you have to time the rundown yourself and be around when the alarm goes off to disconnect. It also doesn't work for strange numbers of cells. You could probably increase the discharge rate by hooking in an extra resistor in parallel. I then use my old cells, or at least the ones that still seem good, in my cheapo cordless phone which destroys batteries. (The dead battery box at Radio Shack is a great source of cells if you don't care about reliability. Most of them can be zapped or otherwise blasted into usability, but don't use them in your planes. Meanwhile you're helping keep toxic metals out of the waste stream.)

For large batteries, you probably need to get a wall wart that gets close to C/10 so they charge in finite time.

Another cheap thing which saves my planes is a voltmeter with a load, of course. Beware the ones with bare metal (on the outside)banana jacks or someday you will short your favorite transmitter and smoke not only the pack but the transmitter wiring.

Some new chargers have some kind of a pulse function which is supposed to extend battery life, but I don't know if I should believe it.




Gene Chernosky -> It's all about consequences IMO (12/6/2003 7:25:42 PM)

Cell phones, laptops, power drills, etc., are indeed important to keep running, but think about an R/C plane just a bit... First, you probably have quite a bit of money riding around in the air; second, if that plane runs out of juice, say, at a fly-in, you might just send your plane careening into the crowd. Yea, there's AMA insurance, but personally, I wouldn't want to be responsible for someone's serious injury or death, and have to live with that fact the rest of my life, because I was too lazy/cheap to take care of my battery packs (TX & RX).

That's about where I stand and why I take VERY good care of ALL of my battery packs.




tunnelvishon -> RE: It's all about consequences IMO (12/7/2003 12:53:22 AM)

My wife has gone and bought the 3rd battery pack for our roam-phone around the house. all in the last year. Its a 700 mA/h NMH and the charger is a 250 mA/h rate. They tell you to put the phone on charger when not in use and the damn thing is always hot when you take it off. Its no wonder these packs give up in short order. I think it must be a scam because all they would have to do is give us a 70 mA/h charger and everything would be fine. I do cycle these batteries every couple weeks now on my Triton and instruct everyone in the house to put the phone on its charger only when fully depleted. The charger has an appliance timer that cuts out in 4 hours and all is well now. I wouldn't even trust my rc car on a wallwart.




Fred Marks -> RE: It's all about consequences IMO (12/7/2003 4:55:51 AM)

Tunnel, you make a good point. I have an electric shaver that has been used as my "case in point" many times. 1) it is charged with a wall wart 2) I always let it deep discharge before charging it, every time 3) The pack lasted for some 12 years done this way 4) When it got bumped On in my luggage during a trip from Korea, it was fully discharged and refused to recharge. All this bears out several things I have learned over the past 40 years with Ni cds: 1) They live a long time if you don't abuse them 2) they work best if you deep discharge them periodically 2) They live longest if you charge them a C/10 and 3) They may not come back if discharged flat, particualrly after they are older.




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