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SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/24/2012 9:01 PM   
kljenkin



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Status: offline 		Started building this SE5a Dynaflite kit in 2008. My 3rd kit build (Falcon 56 in 79) the SIG 4 Star 40 in 2007. This 1/5 "fun Scale" kit is IMAA legal but what categories of Scale Competition does it quilify for? I just want to use it to get a taste of Scale Competition.

My first SE5a is the Eflight 32" ARF electric. I love that plane and thought it would be cool to a small and big version of the same aircraft.

See photos and my build progress on the 1/5 scale kit. I flipped the plan over today to build the Top center section and right side (top and bottom) wing panels.

Ideas, tips, encouragement and info on fun/easy side of scale competition is needed.

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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/24/2012 9:57 PM   
Thayer


 

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Status: offline 		Based on what I have haning in my rafters, I am pretty sure you mean Electrifly 34-inch. A great model indeed. The e-Flite one is much smaller and foam.

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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/24/2012 10:32 PM   
kljenkin



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Status: offline 		Yes, sorry for the mistake it is the Electrifly 34-inch. I have even landed it on it's top wing when I was seeing how low I could fly it inverted. Being electric, a quick field repair with CA for a top center rib and scotch tape to fix the covering and it was back in the air 25 minutes later after the battery recharged.


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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/24/2012 10:48 PM   
TFF


 

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Status: online 		The plane is perfect for Sportsman class. It is the class to get practice on building a plane to get judged. Flying is the same for all classes except for the aerobatic class, which gives a little more freedom for someone bringing a IMAC plane. Talking to judges helps in seeing what they see, and talking to fellow competitors helps too. Got to start somewhere.

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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/24/2012 11:09 PM   
kljenkin



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Status: offline 		Thanks, I saw another thread it seemed that rib spacing and color swatches were important too in other classes. Is monocoat a good choice for covering? flat or gloss? What do you use to cover it you want to paint/age the look of the finish. Also with regard to adding rivits and sheeting seams. I have seen some really detailed work at Joe Nall and was curious how that is done.


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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/24/2012 11:29 PM  1 votes
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		My view is that if you're interested in getting your feet wet in scale competition, you might as well jump all the way in all the way to your neck and at least dog paddle around. What I mean by this is go as "all out" as you can on this model. You'll learn a lot about building...particularly the building of WWI models. As an example, and as a starter, no one would ever use monokote on a serious WWI model. There are several preferred covering options; solartex is an easy one to start with (and many builders including me swear by it). Try to push your skills envelop on each and every aspect of the build. For me that's where the real joy of building comes from anyway.

Here's a link to the rather extensive build thread for my SE5a that addresses a lot of the questions you ask about scale detailing (and it's ALL detailing):

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1363887

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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/24/2012 11:46 PM   
TFF


 

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Status: online 		Read and experiment. You are going to be judged on how good your plane is, but Sportsman is where you will see planes covered in Monokote and with fewer details. The Judging is the same in judged classes, but you are being grouped in like experience groups. You have to get your feet wet; what planes are covered in the magazines and all that shows up are two different things. There are more average planes than not. You have to decide on the plane you want to copy and do your best. You could use Solartex which is fabric but iron on like monokote. If you can see something that is easily changed to make it better do it, but you need to experience it. I love doing it and I enter Sportsman.

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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/25/2012 12:00 AM   
kljenkin



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Status: offline 		Thank you both! I will read the build thread and will plan on using the covering recommended. I had already decided to replace the vacume formed radiator and motor/header details by building something more realistic, but the landing gear is metal, I guess I could enclose that with balsa/bass wood to make it more realistic, but I tend to be somewhat rough on landing gear 1 our of 10 landings. The advice you both gave is exactly what I was looking for. My only disappointment so far today is that there are few scale events with FL and KY/TN being the closest to Charlotte NC.

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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/25/2012 1:00 AM   
kljenkin



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Status: offline 		Wow, learning alot from the photos alone with the way you use blocks pinned into place as straight edges to keep things square and 90 degrees. As you can see from my build photos I pin through the wood instead of around it and add lots and lots of extra glue (fillets) at every joint 15 min epoxy and white glue. More weight bu I will most likely use the high end of the recommended engine range.

I also have lots of trouble with thin CA pouring all over the place. I feel so sloppy compared to you build. However all that extra glue has payed off on my 4 Star 40. It cartwheeled laterally (wing timp to wing tip) in a bad gusty crosswind. Zero damage.

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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/25/2012 1:08 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		The trick with CA is to use the small applicator tips you can buy in modeling shops (or from Tower). Too much glue just makes a model heavy not stronger. And a small well-fitting balsa fillet with carefully applied CA will be much stronger than a glob of white glue or epoxy.

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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/25/2012 1:10 AM   
kljenkin



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Status: offline 		As you can see from the plan and fin/rudder that there is no gap between the rudder bottom and the tail wheel (which is simply two pieces of ply that sandwich the rudder structure (which is flat 3/8 by 1/2 balsa sticks). So based on these differences between my "Fun Scale" kit and your build, what scale classification does your SE5a qualify for?

quote:

Here's a link to the rather extensive build thread for my SE5a that addresses a lot of the questions you ask about scale detailing (and it's ALL detailing):
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1363887


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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/25/2012 1:22 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		I don't compete at all (and live in rural Japan). But as others here on RCU can attest I'm a stickler for scale fidelity. The CDScaleDesigns 1/6 scale SE5a kit I started out with (and that's always the best way to think about any scale building) was pretty good to start with since it was designed in CAD directly over the scale drawings from the Windsock datafile. So you could say that all the "outlines" are 100% scale. That is, all the flight surfaces are the scale size and shape, all the lines on the fuselage are right, the undercarriage is in the right location and is the correct height and width. Even the uprights in the fuselage are more or less in the right place.

And this was on the "stock" kit. Then I modified some features to be even more accurate, basing my modifications on the Replicraft 1/5 scale SE5a technical drawing set. It might be best to avoid looking at these since they have a tendency to make grown men weep!

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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/25/2012 1:34 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Nearly everyone who builds a SE5a model ends up picking and choosing what features to model. Otherwise, it would take FOR-EVER to finish the model. In many ways the SE5a was one of the most complex and technologically sophisticated aircraft of WWI. The volume of small details can be mind-boggling. The point is, don't obsess about it. Just enjoy learning new things on this build.

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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/25/2012 1:38 AM   
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Status: offline 		http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/events/rulebooks/scale.pdf

Take a look at the AMA rules and decide what class you should enter. You can enter different classes but you won't do well in truely scale classes. I would think Fun Scale or Sport scale .. Most probably Fun scale. The Dynaflite kit was stand off scale. More like a sport flyer than anything else.

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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/25/2012 1:53 AM   
kljenkin



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Status: offline 		I am only on page 9 of 84 for your build thread and am learning soooo much. I will remember the glue tips on the fuse but it seems silly to have the left and right sides so different in weight if I stop my "reinforcement' fillets. I have done alot of rockets and thought it made for a stronger joint, it is more surface area but I get the weight thing.

I also made a mistake on the first wing panel, when attaching the wingtip, I failed to notice that the tip is not simply glued on the building board flat with the bottom sheeting but rather centered along the outer rib with the leading edge shape as a guide. So I have no need or room for babyribs on the bottom. Since I made that mistake, I have carried in forward to the top left as well. My plan is to build the right wing panels the same way for consistancy, yes?

Also my kit has no connection between the left and right elevators, it calls for dual pushrods but my radio has the two elevator setup and there is room for an extra servo in the fuse. So my assumption is, that the connector rod between the elevators is scale (even if the brass tubing for the double weld point is not?

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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/25/2012 2:00 AM   
kljenkin



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quote:

ORIGINAL: BobH

http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/events/rulebooks/scale.pdf

Take a look at the AMA rules and decide what class you should enter. You can enter different classes but you won't do well in truely scale classes. I would think Fun Scale or Sport scale .. Most probably Fun scale. The Dynaflite kit was stand off scale. More like a sport flyer than anything else.


I agree, this is fun for me, so making somethings look better and learning in the process is my goal, competition is a participation thing for me. Striving for next to last place or better.

However I an interested in tring to add some of the wire rigging for a better scale apprenece than the kit has. I am little sloppy in building and covering, but it is unique and mine! I am going for a 4' scale look. (Best viewed 4' away or farther.)

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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/25/2012 2:01 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		The elevator operation on the actual SE5a was complex. (Remember I said it was a complex aircraft). It was basically a pull-pull cable system but to help streamline the aircraft, these cables ran INSIDE the fuselage and then through a pulley system inside the stabilizer. Only the bravest scale modelers attempt to replicate this. My model fakes this by using a push-rod connected to the music wire connecting rod.

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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/25/2012 2:11 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		I'll add that, in my opinion, half of the trick of doing scale detailing is learning to actually SEE detail on the original aircraft. Most people are absolutely blind to details...it doesn't even register on their mind. And if you can't see it, you can't very well model it.

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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/25/2012 2:17 AM   
abufletcher



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quote:

ORIGINAL: kljenkin
I am going for a 4' scale look. (Best viewed 4' away or farther.)


You'd be stunned what a serious scale modeler (or a scale judge) can see at 4 feet! For example, at 4 feet I would be able to see (and count) the scale rivets on the scale metal straps on the scale representation of the SE5a's fuel tank. Also visible would be the brass eyelets in the leather cockpit coaming. And you could see that the model used scale flat flying wires (instead of the round music wires mine used). In short, at 4 feet a scale modeler or a scale judge with a sharp eye can see ALMOST EVERYTHING!

As scale SE5a models go, I'd call mine only an average effort. I've seen plenty that are more detailed (including Bob's). While it's true that there are also a lot of sport scale models of the SE5a around with virtually no detailing...or only "token" detailing...the SE5a has been a favorite of exacting scale modelers for years...partially because it is so well documented.


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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/25/2012 3:22 AM   
GerKonig


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abufletcher

quote:

ORIGINAL: kljenkin
I am going for a 4' scale look. (Best viewed 4' away or farther.)


You'd be stunned what a serious scale modeler (or a scale judge) can see at 4 feet! For example, at 4 feet I would be able to see (and count) the scale rivets on the scale metal straps on the scale representation of the SE5a's fuel tank. Also visible would be the brass eyelets in the leather cockpit coaming. And you could see that the model used scale flat flying wires (instead of the round music wires mine used). In short, at 4 feet a scale modeler or a scale judge with a sharp eye can see ALMOST EVERYTHING!

As scale SE5a models go, I'd call mine only an average effort. I've seen plenty that are more detailed (including Bob's). While it's true that there are also a lot of sport scale models of the SE5a around with virtually no detailing...or only ''token'' detailing...the SE5a has been a favorite of exacting scale modelers for years...partially because it is so well documented.




Abu is a master builder, take my word for it! What for him is "an average effort" might very well be something different to somebody else, like an unobtainable goal:-)


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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/25/2012 4:23 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		I just obsess a bit more than many other modelers. It's not really a matter of skill.

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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/25/2012 5:20 AM   
kljenkin



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Status: offline 		I had always thought some of the details where much more simulated than installing hundreds of eyelets. However I love the radiator and will look into the pull pull rudder up high since I will be using two elevator servos.

However I haven't done much building today and I still have not gotten to the end of your Tolstoy length build treatis. Truely AWESOME, and yet there are even more exacting experts is incredible.

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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/25/2012 5:28 AM   
abufletcher



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quote:

ORIGINAL: kljenkin
...and I still have not gotten to the end of your Tolstoy length build treatis.


I like that! Yes, Tolstoy or maybe even Dostoyevsky!


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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/25/2012 12:53 PM   
BobH


 

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Status: offline 		FYI Eyelets aren't all that difficult to install and they are a salient feature of the plane. Here's what can happen to your build: the SE5a has a remarkable amount of detail that's noticable.

Once you start down the "making it more scale looking" road its difficult to find a stopping point. Of course at some point you will need to stop and only you can decide where that will be. That the fun part for many (including me). Enjoy!

A picture of my SE5.

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RE: SE5a 1/5 Scale, can it compete? - 3/25/2012 4:03 PM   
kljenkin



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Status: offline 		Here are my initial goals to increase the scale appearence; 1) radiator, engine valve covers, headers and exhust 2) pull pull rudder with bellcrank and horns above fuse 3) Wire rigging on wings and tail feathers 4) Wood casing around landing gear 5) Seperate the tailwheel from the rudder (but non-steerable or spring loaded) 6) Baby step towards fuse details (not 600 eyelets, I know my limitations) 7) Fuse mounted cannon. That is about the order of importance for me as well.

My overall goal is an impressive stand-off (4') view to your average club guy who believes building is when his ARF does not come prehinged.

I will feel like I won a show if you gentlemen do not LOL and heyhaw at my efforts.
(The use of the word "gentlemen" here along with the earlier reference to abufletcher's build thread as a "Tolstoy length treatis" is known as bribery gentlemen.)


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