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The Ultimate question - when does it make sense to go g... - 3/25/2012 2:03 AM   
harttvboy04


 

Posts: 92
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Joined: 4/15/2009
Last Login: 6/17/2013
From: Norwalk, CT, USA
Status: offline 		Hi guys,

I'd like to start a topic up about something that has been almost consuming for me -
I own a wonderful Webra 120 with a BCM pitts muffler. This engine, as described by others, does not miss a beat. Just starts wonderfully and runs as well. It does drink glow fuel, but produces seemingly more power than any sub 30cc gasser will produce.

I'd like to go a touch faster and can justify having more power ( this is on a cmpro 120 zero). The upfront cost seems steep, especially when it is easier to swallow 65$ cases every few weeks, as a pose to close to 450 for the least expensive 30cc I'd consider (dle 30) by the time all accessories and equipment is purchased.

So, the ultimate question.

When does it make sense to just bite the bullet and go gas?

Do you trade one set of issues for another?

Does it make sense to go down the road of converting glow engines to gas?

I am good at tuning the glow engines, and I assume that most principles still apply.

Please, let's open this up to honest, kind interaction so that people in my shoes can have good info.

Thanks!

Chris

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RE: The Ultimate question - when does it make sense to ... - 3/25/2012 5:06 AM   
Nosedragger


 

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From: hartford, CT, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: harttvboy04

Hi guys,

I'd like to start a topic up about something that has been almost consuming for me -
I own a wonderful Webra 120 with a BCM pitts muffler. This engine, as described by others, does not miss a beat. Just starts wonderfully and runs as well. It does drink glow fuel, but produces seemingly more power than any sub 30cc gasser will produce.

I'd like to go a touch faster and can justify having more power ( this is on a cmpro 120 zero). The upfront cost seems steep, especially when it is easier to swallow 65$ cases every few weeks, as a pose to close to 450 for the least expensive 30cc I'd consider (dle 30) by the time all accessories and equipment is purchased.

So, the ultimate question.

When does it make sense to just bite the bullet and go gas? When you are tired of spending 40 bucks a gallon for nitro and tired of cleaning nitro goo off the plane

Do you trade one set of issues for another? no, not if you consider you save a bundle of money and have an engine that lasts longer, no heavy field box to carry around

Does it make sense to go down the road of converting glow engines to gas? no, use a gas engine

I am good at tuning the glow engines, and I assume that most principles still apply.

Please, let's open this up to honest, kind interaction so that people in my shoes can have good info.

Thanks!

Chris



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RE: The Ultimate question - when does it make sense to ... - 3/25/2012 6:39 AM   
rangerfredbob


 

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From: Salem, OR, USA
Status: offline 		the extra costs don't add up to $100 for a DLE 30, you'll need some gas compatible fuel line, a standard switch harness and standard receiver pack for the ignition module, doesn't have to be fancy, a smaller fuel tank and conversion kit for the tank (Dubro makes the best stopper, haven't tried the new style Sullivan, their old gas one didn't work at all) and a felt clunk (can be found at Home Depot or Lowes in the weedeater parts section for about $9 I think with a couple other things in the pack, $3ish from a small engine shop). Considering the possibility of you having some of that stuff laying around you don't need a whole lot of extra stuff. There's a lot of people that say an optical kill switch is mandatory, but I read of more problems from them than I can justify getting one for, if the engine is set up properly in the first place it's unnecessary...

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RE: The Ultimate question - when does it make sense to ... - 3/25/2012 5:22 PM  1 votes
tkg


 

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From: Riverton, WY, USA
Status: offline 		How much do you fly??? The fuel cost factor is about 20:1. In other words the gas engine cost 5% to operate of what a glow engine cost.

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Too much power is just about right.

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RE: The Ultimate question - when does it make sense to ... - 3/25/2012 11:15 PM   
aussiesteve



Posts: 2924
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From: PerthWA, AUSTRALIA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: harttvboy04

Hi guys,

I'd like to start a topic up about something that has been almost consuming for me -
I own a wonderful Webra 120 with a BCM pitts muffler. This engine, as described by others, does not miss a beat. Just starts wonderfully and runs as well. It does drink glow fuel, but produces seemingly more power than any sub 30cc gasser will produce.

I'd like to go a touch faster and can justify having more power ( this is on a cmpro 120 zero). The upfront cost seems steep, especially when it is easier to swallow 65$ cases every few weeks, as a pose to close to 450 for the least expensive 30cc I'd consider (dle 30) by the time all accessories and equipment is purchased.

So, the ultimate question.

When does it make sense to just bite the bullet and go gas?


In the size range you are looking at, you are right on the cusp of that decision.

quote:



Do you trade one set of issues for another?



Yes. You add additional weight to the plane, you add the complexity of an ignition system, Ignition power supply etc.

quote:




Does it make sense to go down the road of converting glow engines to gas?


Generally - NO unless you do it as a hobby and "just because. For a Gasser to be worthwhile, you will want to have roller bearings etc in it and it is rarely justified. Without rollers, you need to run a high oil percentage and there goes the "Clean plane" advantage..

quote:




I am good at tuning the glow engines, and I assume that most principles still apply.


Yes they do - as long as you are not good at tuning because you are a "Needle fiddler". If you like fiddling with needles - DO NOT GO GAS. If you like to set and pretty much leave them alone - gas is good.

quote:




Please, let's open this up to honest, kind interaction so that people in my shoes can have good info.

Thanks!

Chris


I am basing the above remarks without taking the cost of fuel into account as you mentioned that is not an issue to you.
The other regularly quoted reason is for cleaner planes - electrics are cleaner than gas or glow and are readily available in the size range you are looking at.

In the size range you are looking at
Gas = lower fuel cost

Glow = less complexity

Field box really isn't that much different. I carry my small field box around that I always used. It has a power panel in it and had a small gel cel powering that when I was flying glow. When I fly Gas, all I take to the field is a plane, a small field box, a fuel jug and a radio. Same when I flew glow.

In larger planes, Gas makes a lot of sense due to fuel costs and the lack of availability of glow power in the sizes. Around 30cc is the real changeover point for those comments, 20cc becomes marginal and les than 20cc gas becomes a "Bling Thing".

Now I will sit back and watch this thread urill into many pages of personal opinions - just as I have given.

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3W, BME and DA all the way. Proven power, Proven reliability and Proven support equals much cheaper in the long term.

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RE: The Ultimate question - when does it make sense to ... - 3/27/2012 3:55 AM   
bluejets


 

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From: xnot applicable, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		I find it surprising that cost of the glow fuel is not an issue in deciding which way to go.
Apart from that, the extra weight can sometimes be an advantage.

We once built a 12 foot wingspan "Hots" with an OPS 30cc glow engine and a "large" milo can for a fuel tank. (about 1 litre)
This would give about a 5 minute flight.

So 4 flights for the day to the gallon. Expensive even back then for methanol/castor without any nitro.

When it was built, the balance point was tested. When it was painted, balance point required an extra 1kg of lead at the nose.
We were well aware of the effect that the weight of paint could have but surprised at just how much.

Another breed of plane had a Quadra 40cc with spark. Proceedure was, fill the 1 litre tank at home, cost maybe 40cents, take the plane and radio, no box, and fly all day with the flick of a switch and a flick of the prop, no batteries etc..

Big difference........

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RE: The Ultimate question - when does it make sense to ... - 4/1/2012 3:49 PM   
AA5BY


 

Posts: 1997
Score: 153
Joined: 9/7/2006
Last Login: 6/18/2013
From: White Oak, TX, USA
Status: online 		The OP gives a clue to his position... it is an emotional attachment to the Webra... and there is nothing wrong with that. The engine has been loyal to him and he returns that loyalty by staying with it. There may be some who scoff at the idea of emotional attachment to things but it happens... just watch Tom Hanks in 'Cast Away'.

I've done heroic rebuilds because of emotional attachment and discarded slightly bruised planes because of none. And... I'm not just speaking of the Webra owned by the OP.... many of us may have an emotional attachment to glow. As for me... I've lost most of mine, with the exception of the sound of a glow four stroke. I've come to hate cleaning up glow fuel mess... especially a two stroke glow. I dislike the cost of glow fuel.

One area of this debate that doesn't get mentioned much is engine starting. I dislike starting large glow engines. I've a Saito 1.25 that if started by hand, will sting the %^&* out of my fingers. To use a starter, it has to be hooked to 24v and even then spun over and glow applied after it is spinning. Whereas, all my gas planes are easy to hand start.

IMO, gas became the better choice for 1.20 and above when electronic ignitions made starting very simple and reasonably priced gas engines made them economically appealing.



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RE: The Ultimate question - when does it make sense to ... - 4/1/2012 4:23 PM   
harttvboy04


 

Posts: 92
Score: 100
Joined: 4/15/2009
Last Login: 6/17/2013
From: Norwalk, CT, USA
Status: offline 		Thank you all so much!

I really appreciate the helpful input. You all bring valid points to the table.

I do love how the Webra 1.20 runs. Great Engine. No fuss, no BS and it just starts and runs and runs and runs. It also has A LOT of power for it's size and weight.

I have bitten the Bullet, however. I was able to trade my Saito 180 for a NIB DLE30, and I also have a Tartan Super 77 (44cc) Gas twin on it's way (got it for a steal of a deal). Things that I am afraid of -

I am certainly a part time flyer, but I do see the trend of flying increasing for me, because daylight after work is increasing. Even now, after work, with that excellent running Webra 120, it is not uncommon for me to go through a half gallon - that is in roughly 2-2.5 hours @ the field, not including setup/teardown time and general 'How are you?' antics.

I do, however, plan on keeping the Webra - I may put it ona much smaller airframe and use it to create a monster - a life well deserved by a great running engine. I may even acquire another (as part of another deal) which apparently runs equally as well. I am thinking about putting this engine on a .60 spitfire, which really should haul some serious a$$. I will be installing a 24 ounce tank for some sort of run time...

Here are my fears going into Gas.

I see people futzing with their Gas engines all the time. Eventually they get their engines running right, but that to me is time that I'd rather be flying. I am NOT opposed to learning, as that is a goal of mine out of all this. I may find that I just learn to set the engine up, and leave it alone as many have said both here on RCU and on other sites (not dup posting, just reading other threads). My hope is that I have out of these 2 engines an engine with just as much power, if not more, and speed as my Webra. Amazing, as it really does seem that the Webra 1.20 (20cc) still competes in the power department with today's 30cc gassers.

The simplicity of the glow carburetors is amazing compared to the pumping Walbro/DLE carbs of today that seem to be very sensitive to micro particles. I have also noted that fuel systems are a bit more picky on gassers than they are on glow engines.

Thanks again to everyone! Putting this all in one place for me helps to ease this transition, since in the recent past I have ditched everything essentially that I was not attached to. I try not to keep too much crap around .

Thanks all!




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RE: The Ultimate question - when does it make sense to ... - 5/12/2013 2:13 AM   
thailazer



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From: Ampur Mae TaengChiang Mai, THAILAND
Status: offline 		I just made the decision to try a gasser thanks the the "Cost of Glow Fuel" thread running. It is not about cost for me, but for realism. RCU member MTK (Thanks MTK!) opened my eyes to the fact that you can run aviation fuel in a gasser, which adds the smell of real flying into the picture. The weed eater smell has kept me away from gassers up to now, but with radios needing revamping, I figure this is a good time to give gas a shot. I fly a lot off my own runway so all this makes sense.

For nostalgia reasons, I just bought a brand new ignition Tartan 77 twin. My RC mentor from 20 years ago had a single Tartan and I always loved how that ran and sounded. I know there are stronger engines around, but we all have our own reasons for what we do in the hobby. Pretty familiar with reed valve two stroke engines as well so that helps.

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All Forums >> Glow Engines, Gas Engines, Fuel &amp; Mfg Support Forums >> Engine Conversions >> The Ultimate question - when does it make sense to go gas from glow???
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