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Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/28/2012 2:41 PM   
phlpsfrnk



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From: Spring Hill, FL, USA
Status: offline 		I recently drafted a letter to our club’s local airport authority and thought it would be helpful to other clubs in the same situation. The attached .pdf file is free for anyone to use. If anyone is interested in and would like a .doc, .rtf or .txt file, PM me with an e-mail address and the file type you require and I will provide if possible.

Regards
Frank

Attachments
Click to see the file in new window.Attachment.pdf


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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/28/2012 3:12 PM   
ira d


 

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Status: offline 		Would not it be better to wait untill the AMA gives the go ahead to contact the airports and also see what is actually in the new FAA and AMA
rules first?

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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/28/2012 3:22 PM   
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Status: offline 		The AMA has specifically recommended NOT contacting local airports etc. until the sUAS rules and how the new law will operate are better understood.

quote:

Q: Now that the FAA reauthorization bill is signed into law, should we start contacting the airport/ATC when operating within five (5) miles of a public airport and should clubs begin establishing operating agreements for established flying sites in this region?

A: No, at least not yet.

There are still a lot of unanswered questions regarding how the MA provision in the Bill will be enacted and what oversight authority the FAA will continue to have on us. There is no doubt that the FAA is tasked with maintaining the safety of the NAS and we will need to come to an understanding as to what criteria the AMA member will need to follow in order to operate within the national airspace in the future. As such, it’s probably a little too soon to start reacting to the criteria established in the model aircraft provision in the Bill. AMA will be working directly with the FAA in establishing procedures for setting up these agreements; however, this will take some time and it will likely take several weeks, if not a few months, to iron out all the details.

For now I would suggest business as usual and continue your site operations in accordance with the AMA Safety Code as you have in the past. If you already have an agreement in place then certainly continue to operate under the provisions of that agreement. However if you currently fall within five (5) miles of a public airport and you don’t yet have an agreement, unless approached for some reason by the airport or ATC, it’s recommended you hold off on pursuing an agreement until the AMA is able to provide a form and format for doing so.

As it stands, it’s unlikely there will be an impetus for an established agreement until the issues surrounding the proposed sUAS rule are resolved later this year; however, if you do get approached by the airport authority or someone from the FAA, please contact the AMA for assistance.


http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/amagov/2012/02/22/your-questions-answered-the-faa-reauthorization-bill-and-five-mile-rule/

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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/28/2012 3:33 PM  1 votes
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Status: offline 		Frank, It may be best to wait on that letter.

But if you insist heres a little constructive advice. Mailing that letter to the Airport Manager is a waste of your time and will get you nowhere. The Airport Manager does not control the Air Space. Your letter would be best mailed to the ATC Manager of your local airport.

Tim Johnson
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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/28/2012 3:41 PM  1 votes
KidEpoxy



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you could start referring to that legislative text as
Public Law 112-95: FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012
rather than a bill


quote:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d112:h.r.658:

Latest Major Action: Became Public Law No: 112-95 [GPO: Text, PDF]


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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/28/2012 4:12 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R

The AMA has specifically recommended NOT contacting local airports etc. until the sUAS rules and how the new law will operate are better understood.

quote:

Q: Now that the FAA reauthorization bill is signed into law, should we start contacting the airport/ATC when operating within five (5) miles of a public airport and should clubs begin establishing operating agreements for established flying sites in this region?

A: No, at least not yet.

There are still a lot of unanswered questions regarding how the MA provision in the Bill will be enacted and what oversight authority the FAA will continue to have on us. There is no doubt that the FAA is tasked with maintaining the safety of the NAS and we will need to come to an understanding as to what criteria the AMA member will need to follow in order to operate within the national airspace in the future. As such, it’s probably a little too soon to start reacting to the criteria established in the model aircraft provision in the Bill. AMA will be working directly with the FAA in establishing procedures for setting up these agreements; however, this will take some time and it will likely take several weeks, if not a few months, to iron out all the details.

For now I would suggest business as usual and continue your site operations in accordance with the AMA Safety Code as you have in the past. If you already have an agreement in place then certainly continue to operate under the provisions of that agreement. However if you currently fall within five (5) miles of a public airport and you don’t yet have an agreement, unless approached for some reason by the airport or ATC, it’s recommended you hold off on pursuing an agreement until the AMA is able to provide a form and format for doing so.

As it stands, it’s unlikely there will be an impetus for an established agreement until the issues surrounding the proposed sUAS rule are resolved later this year; however, if you do get approached by the airport authority or someone from the FAA, please contact the AMA for assistance.


http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/amagov/2012/02/22/your-questions-answered-the-faa-reauthorization-bill-and-five-mile-rule/



Absolutely correct.  Do not act until the AMA and the FAA have published and enacted a specific process for notifying airports. Be patient, you don't have to do anything right now.



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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/28/2012 5:06 PM   
littlecrankshaf



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quote:

ORIGINAL: ira d

Would not it be better to wait untill the AMA gives the go ahead to contact the airports and also see what is actually in the new FAA and AMA
rules first?

Nah... Just go ahead and kick the lying dog.. Best to be proactive.

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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/28/2012 5:22 PM   
phlpsfrnk



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R

The AMA has specifically recommended NOT contacting local airports etc. until the sUAS rules and how the new law will operate are better understood.

quote:

Q: Now that the FAA reauthorization bill is signed into law, should we start contacting the airport/ATC when operating within five (5) miles of a public airport and should clubs begin establishing operating agreements for established flying sites in this region?

A: No, at least not yet.

There are still a lot of unanswered questions regarding how the MA provision in the Bill will be enacted and what oversight authority the FAA will continue to have on us. There is no doubt that the FAA is tasked with maintaining the safety of the NAS and we will need to come to an understanding as to what criteria the AMA member will need to follow in order to operate within the national airspace in the future. As such, it’s probably a little too soon to start reacting to the criteria established in the model aircraft provision in the Bill. AMA will be working directly with the FAA in establishing procedures for setting up these agreements; however, this will take some time and it will likely take several weeks, if not a few months, to iron out all the details.

For now I would suggest business as usual and continue your site operations in accordance with the AMA Safety Code as you have in the past. If you already have an agreement in place then certainly continue to operate under the provisions of that agreement. However if you currently fall within five (5) miles of a public airport and you don’t yet have an agreement, unless approached for some reason by the airport or ATC, it’s recommended you hold off on pursuing an agreement until the AMA is able to provide a form and format for doing so.

As it stands, it’s unlikely there will be an impetus for an established agreement until the issues surrounding the proposed sUAS rule are resolved later this year; however, if you do get approached by the airport authority or someone from the FAA, please contact the AMA for assistance.


http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/amagov/2012/02/22/your-questions-answered-the-faa-reauthorization-bill-and-five-mile-rule/

Silent,
I missed that posting. In our club’s case the county that issues our special use permit for the field we are operating out of also requires that we notify the airport of our location and this has been in effect for a couple of years now. I have also sent copies of this to Rich Hanson and I recently received a very nice reply reiterating the same you have stated here. My intent was to provide a somewhat comprehensive form letter to save club secretaries some labor in drafting their own letters.

Regards
Frank

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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/28/2012 5:36 PM   
phlpsfrnk



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quote:

ORIGINAL: TimJ

Frank, It may be best to wait on that letter.

But if you insist heres a little constructive advice. Mailing that letter to the Airport Manager is a waste of your time and will get you nowhere. The Airport Manager does not control the Air Space. Your letter would be best mailed to the ATC Manager of your local airport.

Tim Johnson
District X AVP

Tim,
No problem with constructive advice and I will check into who best to send this to. In our case as I explained to Silent above we have had this requirement for some time and in my club's case the airport is not a towered airport at this time and the airport administration lists the airport manager. There is no listing for an ATC Manager but I agree he should likely be the addressee if he were listed.

Regards
Frank

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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/28/2012 5:56 PM   
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Status: offline 		If the airport already knows where you are, I'd let sleeping dogs lie for the time being. Dennis

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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/28/2012 5:59 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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Status: offline 		Well then if the law is in effect you cannot fly a model plane from your field till the FAA rep for that airport is notified.  I am not sure the AMA is giving good advise unless they act before the law takes effect.

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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/28/2012 6:33 PM   
DadsToysBG



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Status: offline 		Spot pilot you missed his post that the airport already knows where they are. Why do it again? Dennis

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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/28/2012 9:10 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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Status: offline 		Maybe they know about the day to day operations.  But for every event?  Not that this is the requirement, but I think it better to inform them of every contest or fun fly event.  Barbeques excepted of course.

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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/28/2012 9:30 PM   
JohnShe


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

Well then if the law is in effect you cannot fly a model plane from your field till the FAA rep for that airport is notified.  I am not sure the AMA is giving good advise unless they act before the law takes effect.


While the appropriations bill has gone into effect and the FAA is spending the money they have been given.  S336 cannot go into effect until the procedures for airport notification are written and approved.  this will require coordination between the CBO (whoever that is) and the FAA as specified in the language of the appropriations bill.  In the meantime do as the AMA says and sit on it.  Everything will be OK.  The airports are doing the same thing, because they don't know what to do either.  You cannot possibly get into trouble until an official procedure is published and you are given a deadline to meet  it.







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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/29/2012 1:33 AM   
Tailspin



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Status: offline 		OP wrote "In our club’s case the county that issues our special use permit for the field we are operating out of also requires that we notify the airport of our location and this has been in effect for a couple of years now."

Sounds like a local government issue and nothing to do with FAA or AMA.

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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/29/2012 2:02 AM   
JohnShe


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tailspin

OP wrote "In our club’s case the county that issues our special use permit for the field we are operating out of also requires that we notify the airport of our location and this has been in effect for a couple of years now."

Sounds like a local government issue and nothing to do with FAA or AMA.


Well, local governments don't like the thought of full size airplanes crashing into homes and buildings and causing death and destruction.  So they are going to stick the noses in whenever any risk of disaster. seems evident.  I bet the first thing the airport authorities did was call the FAA for advice since the FAA is in charge of all airport operations.




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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/29/2012 3:14 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tailspin

Sounds like a local government issue and nothing to do with FAA or AMA.

Tailspin,
you are correct in that this started out as a local government issue. Without going into boring details, several years ago we had a neighbor/real-estate developer that attempted to have us shut down. His attempt failed however in our presentation to the county board for our special use permit to continue operating some of the board members picked up on the mention of notifying local airport authorities that was in the AMA safety code at that time. This triggered the requirement in our special use permit to notify the airport which was done. Fast forward to today and we have a similar requirement only instead of being mandated by a local county board it is mandated by “Public Law 112-95: FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012”

I believe in being proactive instead of reactive in these types of matters and I drafted the form letter that I presented to the AMA and here. I never submit a draft without full expectation of reviewers bleeding red ink on my draft such as the comments from TimJ and KidEpoxy above which by the way was appreciated.

On the issue of “holding off” I received the following from Rich Hanson;
“AMA is advising its chartered clubs to hold off on reacting to the MA provision in the bill, at least for now. We are suggesting business as usual and to continue your site operations in accordance with the AMA Safety Code as in the past. However, if you’ve already sent the letter and are working towards an agreement then certainly continue with that effort. If you haven’t sent the letter, it’s recommended you hold off on pursuing an agreement until the AMA is able to provide a form and format for doing so.”

Rich also sent;
“Thanks for the copy on your letter. I read the letter and the associated documents and it looks to be a very good approach to establishing an operating agreement with the local airport. I will certainly keep it on file as a reference.”

I would like to publicly here thank Rich for his reply.
In closing I would like to mention that as far as “sleeping dogs” are concerned that if it’s my guard dog on duty it had better not be sleeping.

Regards
Frank

PS: Before anyone complains, I am not advocating the kicking of sleeping dogs.


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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/29/2012 3:37 PM   
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Status: offline 		Good deal Frank.

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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/29/2012 9:06 PM   
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quote:

I bet the first thing the airport authorities did was call the FAA for advice since the FAA is in charge of all airport operations.


I don't think the FAA is in charge of any airport operations, that is run by the airliners and local governments.  The FAA is in charge of the airspace of many airports, that is they pay the controllers, but a lot of local governments and even corporations do that.  The FAA has no control of the airspace above private airports below the lower boundries of aircraft minimum altitude, only those aircraft landing and taking off from the airport has rights to be there and the FAA has no control of that bit of sky.



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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/29/2012 10:08 PM   
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quote:



ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

Well then if the law is in effect you cannot fly a model plane from your field till the FAA rep for that airport is notified. I am not sure the AMA is giving good advise unless they act before the law takes effect.

The law doesn't prohibit flying within five miles of an airport without notification, whether it has "gone into effect" or not. It prohibits the FAA from making rules about model airplanes if those planes meet certain requirements, one of which involves notifications to airports. As the FAA has not yet made any of those rules, nothing in the new law has yet had any effect on how we fly our models, and no notice of any kind to an airport will have any effect either.

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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/30/2012 12:39 PM   
phlpsfrnk



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Top_Gunn

The law doesn't prohibit flying within five miles of an airport without notification, whether it has ''gone into effect'' or not. It prohibits the FAA from making rules about model airplanes if those planes meet certain requirements, one of which involves notifications to airports. As the FAA has not yet made any of those rules, nothing in the new law has yet had any effect on how we fly our models, and no notice of any kind to an airport will have any effect either.

Al,
While I don’t disagree with your statement the FAA has ‘desired and advised’ that modelers notify local airports when in proximity to airport operations for over 30 years (Ref AC 91-57).

“When flying (model) aircraft within 3 miles of an airport, notify the airport operator or when an air traffic facility is located at the airport, notify the control tower, or flight service station.”

I have been a member of numerous clubs over the years that have had to deal with local full scale operations in various ways. Years ago I knew of a club in S. Cal when I was stationed there that had a direct phone line to the nearby control tower so positive communications/control was established whenever anyone was flying. I have made recommendations to the AMA to change the safety code to account for the FAA’s desires;

http://www.modelaircraft.org/forums/tm.aspx?m=1073

I think it is past time that clubs are provided with a form or template for dealing with an old issue that is getting a lot of new visibility because of the recent Public Law 112-95: FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012. The draft I provided can be used by any club, AMA chartered or not. With modification it might even be used by an individual that flies from a fixed field location. It was provided as a draft of something that I believe has been needed for a long time and if it makes the NAS safer why delay it?

Regards
Frank

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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/30/2012 2:11 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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quote:

The law doesn't prohibit flying within five miles of an airport without notification, whether it has "gone into effect" or not


Seems it does if you don't want them to pass regulations.

(a) In General- Notwithstanding any other provision of law relating to the incorporation of unmanned aircraft systems into Federal Aviation Administration plans and policies, including this subtitle, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may not promulgate any rule or regulation regarding a model aircraft, or an aircraft being developed as a model aircraft, if
 
(5) when flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport) with prior notice of the operation (model aircraft operators flying from a permanent location within 5 miles of an airport should establish a mutually-agreed upon operating procedure with the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport)).



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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/30/2012 3:10 PM   
Top_Gunn


 

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quote:

Seems it does if you don't want them to pass regulations.

No. It says that, if they do pass regulations, they can't affect certain models. One of the provisions defining what those certain models are has to do with flying within five miles of an airport. Until the regulations are written, nothing in this law has any effect on anyone flying within five miles of an airport, or anywhere else for that matter. The only prohibition in section 336 is a prohibition on what the FAA can do.

Does the new law impose a fine on people who fly within five miles of an airport? Does it say they will go to jail if they don't notify the airport first? Does it give the airport people the power to shut them down? Does it require any modeler to do anything? No. Nor does it keep the the FAA from passing regulations if people notify airports. It just makes rules about what the new regulations can cover. Those regulations, when they appear, may require some things of us, but until that day, we aren't required to do anything we didn't have to do last year.

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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/30/2012 3:18 PM   
phlpsfrnk



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Top_Gunn

quote:

Sport_Pilot
Seems it does if you don't want them to pass regulations.

No. It says that, if they do pass regulations, they can't affect certain models. One of the provisions defining what those certain models are has to do with flying within five miles of an airport. Until the regulations are written, nothing in this law has any effect on anyone flying within five miles of an airport, or anywhere else for that matter. The only prohibition in section 336 is a prohibition on what the FAA can do.

Does the new law impose a fine on people who fly within five miles of an airport? Does it say they will go to jail if they don't notify the airport first? Does it give the airport people the power to shut them down? Does it require any modeler to do anything? No. Nor does it keep the the FAA from passing regulations if people notify airports. It just makes rules about what the new regulations can cover. Those regulations, when they appear, may require some things of us, but until that day, we aren't required to do anything we didn't have to do last year.

Or the last 30 years in regards to proximity to an airports.

Regards
Frank

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RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles - 3/30/2012 3:58 PM   
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quote:

The law doesn't prohibit flying within five miles of an airport without notification, whether it has "gone into effect" or not. It prohibits the FAA from making rules about model airplanes if those planes meet certain requirements, one of which involves notifications to airports.

+1

Sport, there is no requirement in Public Law 112-95 that MA must notify airports.
There IS a protection from FAA regulations for folks that voluntarily choose to meet some conditions.




quote:

Seems it does if you don't want them to pass regulations.

?????
We all know the rules/regulations you are talking about will come to be
(cant really say 'pass' since its an arbitrary administration rule/reg and not an elected rep vote to legislate)

Those regs on toy airplanes will come to be,
whether there is Public Law protections for some folks or not.
The only difference is whether the FAA regs (that have FFA exclusion for CBOAltStandards)
will have protection from congress that will exclude CBO modeling operations from being subject to those regs (that have FAA exclusion for AltStandards)

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