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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 1/14/2013 1:03 PM   
sensei



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Status: offline 		I used Minwax polycrylic and 3/4 oz. cloth on the canopy deck in this picture, going poly always works so easy for me too.

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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 1/19/2013 7:58 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: oliveDrab


quote:

ORIGINAL: dhal22


quote:

ORIGINAL: vicman

I have tried WBP too many times with epic failures every time. Yeah, it's plenty cheap but not worth it.



I have had wonderful results with WBP. Very easy to apply and sand. And a very light finish as well. This 60 size pattern plane (my 1st painting project) finished at a shade under 8 lbs with sanding sealer, WBP, paint and clear coat.

What weight fiberglass cloth did you use, if any? I would love to hear you say that you didn't use ANY fiberglass cloth. Just ''....sanding sealer, WBP, paint and clear coat.....''. If this is true then I need you to teach me how to do this. Good job.

What equipment do you use for painting? A compressor and spray gun? Or rattlecans.

Thanks!
-oliveDr


try using the lightest glass possible I have found the .56oz glass works well with WB poly over sealed balsa sheeting,I use Deft satin in a spray can for sealing the balsa sheeting wait 3-4 days,then sand the surface, and then glass it using Varathane Diamond finish, a good quality nylon brush works well just start from the center of the cloth and work out towards the edges, I prefer the Diamond finish over the polycrilic because the Diamond seems a little harder when its dry, there both mfg. by Minwax and are good quality products.

the key is allowing the Deft sealer to fully dry before applying the WB product over it so far I have had excellent results on several WWII models a great tutorial on the process from Tom Pierce here http://tompierce.net/rcplanes/index.htm his dauntless model and the FW190 not only cover the glassing process with WB poly but the detail work he does is excellent well worth the time to read







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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 1/19/2013 8:32 AM   
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Status: online 		west epoxy is available here and many, especially the full size boat guys, swear it is the greatest stuff ever made.....great marketing and brand recognition if i ever saw it. IMO it's decent for a lot of stuff but excels at none of them....for good stuff you have to go to the industrial formulators that work with the aerospace and electronics industries. the place i use works with ciba resins and there is always an engineer willing to listen to your needs, best of all they will do small quantities down to a kilo or so and is cheaper than the "brand name" stuff. i must have 20 different epoxies on the shelf, each very different and designed for a specific task. some were even formulated according to my own specs. i know these formulators exist over there too, just have to seek them out.

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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 1/19/2013 2:39 PM   
sensei



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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZAGNUT

west epoxy is available here and many, especially the full size boat guys, swear it is the greatest stuff ever made.....great marketing and brand recognition if i ever saw it. IMO it's decent for a lot of stuff but excels at none of them....for good stuff you have to go to the industrial formulators that work with the aerospace and electronics industries. the place i use works with ciba resins and there is always an engineer willing to listen to your needs, best of all they will do small quantities down to a kilo or so and is cheaper than the ''brand name'' stuff. i must have 20 different epoxies on the shelf, each very different and designed for a specific task. some were even formulated according to my own specs. i know these formulators exist over there too, just have to seek them out.


Why in the world would someone want to go to the expense and trouble to use a resin system from Ciba-Geigy so they can paint prep the surface of their balsa wood model airplane with 3/4 oz. cloth... There is not any strength required you know, just a surface that keeps your topcoat looking good.

Bob

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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 1/19/2013 3:38 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sensei


quote:

ORIGINAL: ZAGNUT

west epoxy is available here and many, especially the full size boat guys, swear it is the greatest stuff ever made.....great marketing and brand recognition if i ever saw it. IMO it's decent for a lot of stuff but excels at none of them....for good stuff you have to go to the industrial formulators that work with the aerospace and electronics industries. the place i use works with ciba resins and there is always an engineer willing to listen to your needs, best of all they will do small quantities down to a kilo or so and is cheaper than the ''brand name'' stuff. i must have 20 different epoxies on the shelf, each very different and designed for a specific task. some were even formulated according to my own specs. i know these formulators exist over there too, just have to seek them out.


Why in the world would someone want to go to the expense and trouble to use a resin system from Ciba-Geigy so they can paint prep the surface of their balsa wood model airplane with 3/4 oz. cloth... There is not any strength required you know, just a surface that keep the keep your topcoat looking good.

Bob


I agree with Bob. Or formulate custom epoxy mix for a few ounces.

It's just for cosmetics mainly.

Steve

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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 1/19/2013 6:01 PM   
Propworn


 

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Status: offline 		I first used the West System when I built a stripper canoe some 20 years ago. Though I no longer own it the present owner is still paddling it around on a regular basis. This was my first attempt and it’s still in excellent shape today with no signs of delamination. If a first timer can take on such a project and its still in excellent shape after 20 years of use that to attests to the ease of use. Since that time I have used it to build a couple of other kayaks and do some wood boat repairs. It was the first epoxy to meet Mill spec and was used to laminate wood ribs and planking for navy mine sweepers. It was also the first to meet spec for full size aircraft building in both homebuilt and manufacturing level. That being said it was a long time ago and since there probably are others some better some worse. In fact epoxy has all but eliminated Resorcinol Glue and I don’t even know where you could buy it today. Since I have started with the West System it’s the only one I use for all my RC projects. It’s easy to use and is available in just about any boat shop. Read no hazardous shipping costs. As you can tell from my post I like the West System a lot.

If you think about the realistic stresses we put on our non human carrying models any of the epoxies and polyester resins should easily provide sufficient strength to get the job done. It then becomes no more than personal preference which will include ease of use and availability. Some will not be satisfied unless they are using the latest super epoxy that even mixes itself and who is to say they are wrong if it makes them happy. Others are only concerned with finish and use a myriad of paints and glues to seal and fill the cloth. If it works for them great I love to see new stuff like that. Playing with different techniques is what makes this hobby interesting and as long as you are enjoying success who is to say you are doing anything wrong. Keep up the new ideas and everyone jump in and ruin another set of pants

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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 1/19/2013 9:37 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sensei



Why in the world would someone want to go to the expense and trouble to use a resin system from Ciba-Geigy so they can paint prep the surface of their balsa wood model airplane with 3/4 oz. cloth... There is not any strength required you know, just a surface that keep the keep your topcoat looking good.

Bob


because at least for me over here it's much cheaper than west systems. and no trouble either, i just call them up and a couple days later it's delivered.


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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 1/19/2013 10:44 PM   
sensei



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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZAGNUT


quote:

ORIGINAL: sensei



Why in the world would someone want to go to the expense and trouble to use a resin system from Ciba-Geigy so they can paint prep the surface of their balsa wood model airplane with 3/4 oz. cloth... There is not any strength required you know, just a surface that keep the keep your topcoat looking good.

Bob


because at least for me over here it's much cheaper than west systems. and no trouble either, i just call them up and a couple days later it's delivered.


How much is a QT. of Deft sanding sealer, Minwax polycrilic, or equivalent, That is all you need to get the job done. Really!

Bob

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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 1/30/2013 7:03 PM   
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Status: online 		I like EZ Lam from Aerospace Composites. Good wetting properties and just plain works for me. Not too expensive either.

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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 1/31/2013 3:15 PM   
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Status: offline 		I've used Polyester resin and cloth for over 20 years, well over 20 years.

Sig offers a great polyester resin.

This model was scratch built and finished in the late 90's. polyester resin then finished in all auto paints. Except for the Gold Leaf.

Charles

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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 1/31/2013 4:23 PM   
sensei



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Status: offline 		That is a very nice looking airplane indeed, and I also used polyester resin for finish work on my models back at least 20 ears ago, but honestly, there are just lighter and more time and cost efficient ways of getting the surface ready for topcoat today. So my vote is still for the poly.

Bob

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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 1/31/2013 4:40 PM   
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Status: online 		Regarding toxicity, the urethanes(varathanes, spar urethanes) and lacquers(deft) are pretty tame. Might as well use a respirator if you've got one. Then the polyester resins/mek catalyst really put out an odor so you'll want a charcoal respirator just for that. But I was never really sure where the catalyzed epoxies sit... you hear stories of people getting sensitivity to them. Of the ones we've listed, how do they rate in terms of toxicity?

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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 2/20/2013 5:23 PM   
BFoote


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dbsonic

Regarding toxicity, the urethanes(varathanes, spar urethanes) and lacquers(deft) are pretty tame. Might as well use a respirator if you've got one. Then the polyester resins/mek catalyst really put out an odor so you'll want a charcoal respirator just for that. But I was never really sure where the catalyzed epoxies sit... you hear stories of people getting sensitivity to them. Of the ones we've listed, how do they rate in terms of toxicity?


If you do any extenesive amount of epoxy(varios types etc) urethanes MAS yadda yeadda non water based or just about anything else you will want to use a charcoal filter. The reason is this: While the majority of people will not be alergic, many will become alergic with prolonged exposure. And in general terms, to some extent EVERYONE will become alergic with super prolonged exposure. Same with wood working(where this was learned first). Though in wood working a VERY good vacuum system cleans this problem up. My brother has developed wood alergies while I get the joy of having chemical alergies. My bro breaks out in hives and then asthma while I feel super crappy and then huge quantities of mucus, headaches, etc.

I used to be one of those who poo poo'd chemical toxicity for most chemical products. Not anymore. If its not water based, use a respirator, or a good vacuum system. It better be a cyclone and filter combination with a 5 HP motor on it. If it has smaller than a 5Hp motor on it, moving less than 1000CFM AT the end of the tube(CFM depends on tube size/length) NOT the theorotetical CFM without said pickup hose and filter on the damned thing, then its either the most efficient vacuum system ever created and everyone in the world will buy one, or the manufacturers are lying to you. I will let you decide which one is which. Go with: lying to you. IE, Every last system listed in the Grainger catalog and everything sold by Grizzly and all other super cheap manufacturers. A lower HP vacuum system just sucks up the large chips which don't create the alergies in the first place. Its all the FINE dust. Both wood, and sanded epoxies, etc that you breath into your lungs.

When using large quantities of epoxy I wear a charcoal filter and put a filter I created from charcoal filters on our whole garage vacuum system. I don't have ripping headaches anymore and my brother doesn't break out in hives. The shop stays clean as well. No more damned sweeping. At least not much.

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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 3/18/2013 1:15 PM   
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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 3/27/2013 4:17 AM   
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Status: offline 		Now I know why they put them big engines on those small boat shop planes, it's to get the brick in the air. Haven't you heard of dope and talc or Dap light weight spackle and all those lighter products out there ? "Wow".

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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 3/27/2013 4:43 AM   
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Status: offline 		Because dope and talc won't do this:  https://vimeo.com/8356047 



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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 3/27/2013 11:31 AM   
sensei



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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 3/27/2013 3:28 PM   
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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 3/27/2013 4:05 PM   
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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 3/27/2013 4:49 PM   
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That is super cool.


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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 3/27/2013 7:08 PM   
sensei



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Status: offline 		That is pretty cool but I do have a question, what does that have to do with the ease of paint prep work utilizing .75 oz. cloth poly on an all balsa sheeted airplane?

Bob

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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 3/27/2013 8:51 PM   
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Status: offline 		Yea, but who cares, I think the question had something to do with .75 oz. on balsa however there was no mention about weight. Most boat resins are heavy so why would anyone want to use it when there are lighter products that have been used for years, just curious.

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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 3/28/2013 3:13 AM  2 votes
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Status: offline 		The original starter of this thread  (vertical grimmace) stated:

1)  In post #1 he wanted recommendations from people for resins that they like to use when glassing balsa surfaces with .75 ounce glass.  People have offered things that they like.  Several of these people have be criticized for the offering things that they like.

2)  In post #3 we find out that the OP is desiring more than just a paintable surface.  He is wanting strength as well.  There are quite a few high performance balsa products that use .75 ounce glass to increase the torsional stiffness and strength.  Performance was one of the requested objectives.  Those who create high performance light weight structures know that the chosen resin makes a difference in the stiffness and strength even when light weight glass is used.  Talk to the DLG produces who use .75 ounce by the roll and gallons of expensive and very rigid resins on products that sit in the sun all day.

3)  In post #18 we find out that virtical grimmace has already used WBP.  We could conclude then that he is looking for other options beside water based products since he has already tried them.  Why else would he ask "What's your favorite resin for glassing?" if he was satisfied with the products he has already used.

The guys who are covering balsa sheeted foam core wings with light glass and going of 100 mph aren't using water based products, dope, or boat resins for that matter.  I'm just offering options that strive to meet the stated objectives:  maximum strength and a good substrate for painting.  Why do you seem to imply that I'm diverging from the stated objectives?  Some of you seem to have forgetten that he wanted strength as well.  If dope, filler, and WBP are sufficient for your needs then great!  It may not be sufficient in other applications where .75 ounce glass is used over balsa for structural reasons.




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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 3/28/2013 1:45 PM   
sensei



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Status: offline 		The simple truth is adding a single ply of .75 oz to the surface will only give you a nice stable base for top coat purposes only! it does not add load carrying strength per say in this application... Only an engineered load carrying multiple span wise tapering ply schedule for given speeds and weight of your vehicle will give the strength needed to handle the loads of those high energy wind up turns at nearly 400mph. as some may imply with video postings. The epoxy resin is only the matrix for binding the fibers together, so adding heavier coats of resin only adds weight, it is not buying you much strength without multiple plies in the fray, and the penalty trade off unfortunately is weight. So for paint purposes, there are lighter simpler and more cost effective ways of getting the job done, if you are designing for strength, then design for strength, but paint prepping a surface with strength in mind by utilizing a single ply of .75 cloth is a fantasy, the cloth is only required in the first place to hold down the wood grain under the paint so it does not transfer back through the first warm day sitting in the sun...

Bob

< Message edited by sensei -- 3/29/2013 12:45 PM >

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RE: Favorite resin for glassing? - 3/28/2013 1:52 PM   
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