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flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/20/2012 3:20 PM  1 votes
kochj


 

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Status: offline 		I had been flying my Funtana X100 on a Very large facility or actually a Church...

The parking lot is massive, similar to a stadium size parking.

I had been there for a very short period of time, and was no where near 400FT. when flying.
It was a shakedown flight....just basic rolls, loops ect.

I was flying over a overlook (very beautiful) and had flown there many times prior with my .46 size p-51.

The Church had no issues with me being there...and one of the Grounds mgmt would come out and talk with me... about planes and how he has a small rc foamy.

While I had 4-5 people watching...a couple of Full scale planes had flown overhead, they setup for there landing...
This is a small airport, so the planes consist of mainly single engine privately owned planes.


The police shows up, says he has no idea about the laws, and said that the Air traffic controller said I should leave...

I hate causing "Bad feelings" about rc planes....this was long before any of the UAV incidents or goofy reports about a man that had plans to
use is foamy micro electric turbine to fly 20lbs of explosives (like that is going to work) to the white house!.....

I packed up and left....and have not returned....I have flown in other sites...w/o issue. Including the 40min drive to a local flying club...


What are my rights if any in this????
The topic of a previous post giving a draft letter to airports sparked my interest...


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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/20/2012 3:46 PM   
Michael R.



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Status: offline 		How exactly far away from the airport were you located?

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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/20/2012 4:14 PM   
DocYates



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Status: offline 		If you were close enough that ATC was aware of you presence near the flight path (as you hinted in your statement) then you really have no argument. Full size aviation will always trump your RC flying, as it should, since the safety of a pilot and his full scale plane takes precedent. The church, when likely confronted with this dilemma and the possibility of lawsuit should something happen, will also probably tell you to skedaddle. This is why flying at a designated flying site is always a much better alternative than flying at a place like this. It sucks but it is a sad reality.

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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/20/2012 4:14 PM   
Silent-AV8R



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Status: offline 		Which airport is this? It cannot be that small if it has a control tower.

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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/20/2012 4:14 PM   
phlpsfrnk



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael R.

How exactly far away from the airport were you located?

Also might ask where in relation to the runway was this church parking lot and do you know if it was a towered airport? Anywhere inside the normal landing pattern for the airport would be of concern without some arrangement with the local ATC.

Regards
Frank

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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/20/2012 4:19 PM   
TimJ



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Status: offline 		IF traffic was flying over head to Land at an airport, you really should not be flying there. When airplanes are on approach to an airport their altitude can vary. So there really is nothing to buffer full size aircraft from model aircraft. Also ultimately the local ATC Manager is in control of the airspace around his or her airport.

Tim Johnson
AMA District X AVP

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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/20/2012 6:29 PM   
JohnShe


 

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Status: offline 		I think every response advising you that here was a good reason for the ATC to be concerned is valid.  You need to find a better, safer place to fly.

A "stadium size parking lot!"  is this some sort of mega church with several thousand members?

If you are an AMA member, and the club field is not too far away, you should get with the club and fly there.  You have the best advantage that way, a safe place to fly, insurance, fellow enthusiasts, help and fun.






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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/20/2012 6:53 PM   
Silent-AV8R



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Status: offline 		If you are talking about Flying Cloud Airport and were flying in the Grace Church lot, I can see why they were concerned. That is right about where planes would be turning from downwind to base for either of the 2 runways. It is not a place I would feel safe flying

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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/21/2012 4:22 AM   
kochj


 

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Status: offline 		Yep that is the place.....
Designated flying zones are always best....I agree...

The reason I asked, is that I had read some of the AMA lit. and it said that when flying next to airports, have a spotter....
Give the airplanes the right-away ect ect...

After reading this, I reverted to my flying experience at Grace Church and thought the same as what you had said...
"To be flying there and having planes go by as low as they were" it seemed a bit, over the top.
When does this apply then?? Sounds like no one would be flying at or near a airport but it is done all the time...


This was when I had first started flying planes on land (I flew seaplanes only prior to land based)
and I didn't belong to any flying clubs....This happen 4-5 years ago....I have since joined a Club...
and they are never close....

I guess, this is why Smaller electric planes have became so popular....
Fly your 2lb plane, and go nuts in a not used park...
no do-gooders complain about noise either...

Even a .46 size plane is too big to fly in soccer fields that have homes on one side of them...


Don't get me wrong, I have never went back to that place, and I never want to leave a bad taste in someone's
mouth when it comes to rc planes,cars, helicoptors, boats....

This is why I asked on this forum...many people have much more FULL scale flying and or information that can educate me or others...
And helps me understand the ins& outs of it all..



A smart man once said "Freedom is a long rope, that God wants you to hang yourself with"





< Message edited by kochj -- 4/21/2012 4:43 AM >

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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/21/2012 4:32 AM  1 votes
KidEpoxy



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quote:

The police shows up, says he has no idea about the laws, and said that the Air traffic controller said I should leave...


the local 'police' were sent by the tower??
And they were sent without getting told by ATC of any actual statutory justification to boss you around????

Its usually pretty easy to mount a defense
when your accuser doesnt have any idea if what you are doing is actually prohibited or not.


You did the right thing,
instead of putting up a fuss on the spot, you stopped flying and left.
NOW, after immediate safety was duly taken care off, now make a fuss with that tower.
Have them tell you WHY you cant fly there, and have them write that down.
And then post that here so we can see just how far they are overstepping their bounds
(or so we can maybe provide you examples of other airports that DO allow it, for you to take back to them)

You are already effectively kicked off that land, what are they going to do, Kick You Off-er?

Try contacting the DA for the cops that ran you off.
Ask them to cite what law their cops are harassing you with? If the DA cant find anything that he can can charge you with if you return, then maybe he should be telling his local cops not to harass you. I coulda sworn we just had a huge national discussion on how the Feds are crying that locals SHALL NOT enforce Fed domain law (Immigration ring a bell). Yet here we see local cops puzzled by NAS users and controllers- Local cops being used to enforce NAS but not Immigration because thats federal?

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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/21/2012 4:39 AM   
KidEpoxy



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quote:

Yep that is the place.....
Designated flying zones are always best....I agree...


if you feel that way,
then get 4 other AMA folks
and charter that church as a 'designated' AMA-PPP Chartered Club Flying Site.

There,
you will then be at a designated AMA club site
which will make everything ok

I mean, thats what folks here are telling youto do, right? To fly at an AMA club??
So make that church an AMA club site.... we spent a bundle on the PPP, why not put all that subsidizing to use for ya

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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/21/2012 5:33 AM  1 votes
Silent-AV8R



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quote:

ORIGINAL: kochj

Yep that is the place.....
Designated flying zones are always best....I agree...

The reason I asked, is that I had read some of the AMA lit. and it said that when flying next to airports, have a spotter....
Give the airplanes the right-away ect ect...



All I can say about your situation is that you were basically flying directly under their traffic pattern. The pattern altitude is 1,000 feet AGL, but where you were planes would be descending to land. That means they will likely be much lower. I sincerely doubt that anyone at AMA would construe anything they publish as indicating that flying where you were would be safe under any circumstances except perhaps of the smallest foamy type plane.

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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/21/2012 8:43 AM   
fly4food18


 

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Status: offline 		This is the information I have from my flying field. Read Page 5 of the Cal Trans doc.

Attachments
Click to see the file in new window.Attachment.pdf Click to see the file in new window.Attachment.pdf


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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/21/2012 1:05 PM   
eddieC



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quote:

 You did the right thing,
instead of putting up a fuss on the spot, you stopped flying and left.
NOW, after immediate safety was duly taken care off, now make a fuss with that tower.
Have them tell you WHY you cant fly there, and have them write that down.
And then post that here so we can see just how far they are overstepping their bounds


Kid's right. If you had the permission of the property owner, you have a valid argument. The only thing I would have done is make a courtesy call to the tower prior to flying. Keep in mind that, post-9/11, general aviation traffic has nose-dived and smaller airports have really seen their operations decrease.

I've flown at small airports. both tower-controlled and non-tower. If you just get an OK and keep things low-key, you can do a lot. We have a local club that's directly on final approach at about 3.5 miles, on top of a landfill, and never have a problem.  If the full-size aircraft are quite low at that distance, they can be cited for dangerous ops. Works both ways.

No one's stated yet the distance from the tower to the church.

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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/21/2012 2:01 PM   
aceplant00


 

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Status: offline 		You are less then 2 miles from the airport. Think AMA has some restriction on flying within a set distance from a controlled airport. As others have said manned aircraft have right of way.
http://maps.google.ca/maps?um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=0,0,2930389967619930682&fb=1&hq=Flying+Cloud+Airport&gl=ca&daddr=10110+Flying+Cloud+Dr,+Eden+Prairie,+MN+55347,+United+States&geocode=0,44.824038,-93.45181&sa=X&ei=ea6ST538Ksqa6QG5zpmCBA&ved=0CAsQngIwAw

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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/21/2012 2:43 PM   
littlecrankshaf



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Status: offline 		Hmmm... Not sure what you mean to say, but one of my favorite and dearest AMA club flying sites is at an airport... Actually, it is the very place I first saw Remote Control models when I was a kid... I lived near by and would hang out there often...

Absolutely nothing wrong with being near or even at the airport with model aircraft IMO...just a little coordination and things are just fine...

BTW for years one of my regular flying sites was at another county airport near where I live now...I still go there from time to time...

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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/21/2012 3:55 PM   
Silent-AV8R



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quote:

ORIGINAL: fly4food18

This is the information I have from my flying field. Read Page 5 of the Cal Trans doc.



CalTrans has a bee in their bonnet about models at airports in California. AMA is aware of this and has tried to work with CalTrans, but I do not know how it has worked out so far.

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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/21/2012 4:02 PM   
Silent-AV8R



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quote:

ORIGINAL: aceplant00

You are less then 2 miles from the airport. Think AMA has some restriction on flying within a set distance from a controlled airport. As others have said manned aircraft have right of way.



I am not aware of ay such AMA Rule. They Safety Code does say to contact the airport when flying within 3 miles. But there are no other "rules".

Here is the AMA Policy on "See and Avoid"

http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/540-D.pdf

And the Safety Code:

http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/105.pdf



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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/21/2012 6:10 PM   
JohnShe


 

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Status: offline 		Well, I think some poor student pilot had to change his trousers after landing that day.  In all likelihood a complaint was filed and the ATC felt the need to act.  Whether the action was truly "legal" can be debated till heck freezes over but what was done is done.  Clearly an agreement with the ATC will not be possible now, so the parking lot is off limits for anything noticeable by approaching full size aircraft.

Sorry that the club field is so far way, 40 minutes is a bit of a drive.  Mine is 30 minutes away, but I need it for me big trainer.  If you only fly park size birds, you should be able to find a underused park or soccer filed.



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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/21/2012 6:29 PM   
GraemeEllis



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Status: offline 		Just because you can "legally" fly your model somewhere, doesn't mean it's safe. Sure, the circuit is flown at 1000 ft, but you've still got the 500 ft crosswind and base leg. A 100 ft difference between "legal" and the most busy part of the circuit for a pilot is just too close. Not all aircraft are going to be flying in same sized pattern, either. 

A plane like the ones you are flying are just not suitable for a populated location. I'd suggest you take the long drive and not risk causing a potentially fatal accident. 


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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/21/2012 9:42 PM   
kochj


 

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Status: offline 		I like to hear the diff. sides of the argument....

The police officer, actually said "I don't know the rules flying rc where you are but the control tower called us up"

I don't know the actual distance from where I was flying and to the airport landing zone, but it isn't that far....

You have all given some very good advice and information..


It has been my experience that there are WAY too many people that think they are the law. And if they think you are breaking it...they are Johnny on the spot....

The officer was very nice and really wasn't sure how to handle it... and wasn't all that happy to send me on my way...
In fact, the moment I saw the police car pulling up, I had started to load the plane up....

I have been pushed off so many places my entire life. I had a on road/off road Honda 250XL that I road @ 14yrs of age....
No issues if by myself, but when I road with my 2-friends and there Honda CR80 motocross bikes....do gooders came out in groves!....
Loud bikes tend to do that...

I was attack by one guy...that in reality had no sense at all... It was a registered Licensed motorcycle Street legal!...

There are some very Unhappy people in the world.....to say the least...

Now that I am older, I have become the wiser...and no longer "RUN" away...as there is no need to...

I have had one guy claim I was taunting him with my airplane??...and I didn't see anyone around me while flying my plane....
He was all upset. I said "hold on"...Landed my plane calmly waked over to him (he drove his car from his house) so it was a ways away....
By the time I was done talking with him, he said sorry and shook my hand!.. This is the ideal ending to these types of situations... but it gets tiring very quickly.

I have always been very considerate when I fly my planes at NON designated flying sites....
I don't like to be hassled, but I like to be able to go fly a plane for 1-hour, and when done, be home w/in 5 min.
I always make sure NO ONE is out on the field, and that I fly only in that area, and not low and close when on the boundries...
These fields are either empty, or I don't fly... The one I flew at yesterday; the field was closed to try to plant grass ( they have grown very little and it is covered in large weeds)
I stayed off it last year, when it was planted and was growing. It is now done and the feild looks pretty grim, and is still closed for soccer events...
I have been flying there when the local police stopped by....Then another, and they watched me fly... One of them had stopped over and looked at all my planes (he has one himself, but a small foamy)

It seems that when you do these things though, it can bring out ALL the Unhappy, wacky jobs out of the wood work...( and there are many of them around)

The Grace Church/Flying Cloud airport thing is very different than my examples above.....
If the airport wasn't there, it would be an entirely diff. situation.. But I would have still handled it calmly.....
But w/o knowledge, I wouldn’t have a foot to stand on....

Thanks guys...

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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/21/2012 11:03 PM   
lopflyers


 

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Status: offline 		Do you know why designated flying fields are never close by? Exactly because they are mean to be far from people, buildings and traffic.
It is one of the perils of this hobby, we need to be far from civilization


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RE: flying close to small airport Police on the scene - 4/22/2012 12:16 AM   
aerialsports


 

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We have a AMA field here in Alliance Ohio that is actually shared with full scale aircraft and also has a jump site far down at the other end of the field..Of coarse the full scale aircraft have the right away but all works out fine so flying at your church parking lot and making it a official AMA flying site should not be a issue as long as certain rules are followed..



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