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RE: SOS, DD - 5/2/2012 11:14 PM   
Silent-AV8R



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Isn't this the four hundredth thread this year about the magazine??

Hoss got it right SoS-DD.

The same guys with the same complaints using the same arguments about the same things over and over and over and over and over and over and over and......................

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RE: SOS, DD - 5/3/2012 1:24 AM   
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I have seen Model Aviation for sale in hobby shops (what is this hobby shop of which you speak?) in years past. I particularly like to read construction articles, how to do it tips, and reports on contests. I have Model Aviation back to 1972, and do not like it as well today as I did 40 years ago. I realize that the times they are a changing. My opinion is that the commercial magazine, Flying Models, is a much better magazine than Model Aviation. I even find interesting stuff in their ARF reviews. Even today, a company can make money selling a magazine which interests me more than Model Aviation, and can do it without a captive audience.

I guess my thinking is that Model Aviation should be a magazine interesting enough to make it as a commercial magazine. Let's fund them reasonably to bring us the AMA news, and see if they can make it as a commercial enterprise. I think having Model Aviation out as a commercial magazine, available to non members by subscription, and on newsstands. would do something toward the AMA goal of promoting model aviation.

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RE: SOS, DD - 5/3/2012 2:18 AM   
init4fun


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Thomerson
I think having Model Aviation out as a commercial magazine, available to non members by subscription, and on newsstands. would do something toward the AMA goal of promoting model aviation.



With all due respect ,

I don't think you'd sell enough of em for it to be a commercially viable venture . Those of us in the AMA already get ours , just how many who are not in the AMA are going to want to buy the newsletter of a club that they don't belong to ?

To me , the Magazine serves it's purpose well , and I don't feel that any of my $58 are wasted by getting it . Sure , the content has to evolve a bit as our hobby does , that's the price of progress . If ARFs represent a greater segment of our hobby than kit/scratch builts do , wouldn't it seem right for them to have proportionally greater exposure in the magazine ?


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RE: SOS, DD - 5/3/2012 2:41 AM   
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Silent
quote:

Hoss got it right SoS-DD.

The same guys with the same complaints using the same arguments about the same things over and over and over and over and over and over and over and......................


Really?

Cause maybe my memory is failing,
but I dont recall post2 MichaelR beating his point ala DeadHorse all over RCU
(nor can we see him do that in our AMA board thread where we had muncies comptroller explain Dues = $40AMA+$18Mag)

No Silent, I dont see post2 MichealR saying
"I would like it if the AMA broke even on the cost of producing a magazine. "
as him being a dead horse beater just for posting his opinion.
But then, what could he possibly know about ama publishing, right?




quote:

same arguments about the same things over and over

Yeah, that DOES get tiring.
We cant even count on folks remembering all the other times we had to explain Unrelated Business taxable profit to folks here, yet it looks like we are going to have to educate folks 'over and over' as you put it. Same fallacies posted over and over get the same debunking over and over.

Beating the horse about metal props wont change AMA (except of course that AMA did then change position)
Beating the horse about doing REAL lobbying wont change AMA (except of course that AMA did then start lobbying)
Beating the horse for info on the Conflict-o-Interest wont get answers (except of course that AMA did then announce there was CoI)

You say Beat The Horse like it is a bad thing,
yet when we beat the horse we get results.
Heck, We even got a Paintball PDF out of it cause SOME FOLKS didnt quit when told to shutup/lock-thread

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RE: SOS, DD - 5/3/2012 5:32 AM   
Silent-AV8R



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Your response makes my point.

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RE: SOS, DD - 5/3/2012 1:04 PM   
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Concur, but he is just another dead horse beater.

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RE: SOS, DD - 5/3/2012 5:03 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hossfly

In another forum where most posters here never venture, some were complementing the ''NEW LOOK'' of AMA's magazine, Model Aviation. Of course I just had to bring the total item to light, expecially for those that just recently arrived into the realm of model aviation. Items being discused touched on the FAI programs, the ''New Look'' and a few other subjects that may be or not be covered in my response.
>>>>
1. The new ''Model Aviation'' is definitely a superior magazine. In that regard why is it not a profit making ''Unrelated Business'' as it was so intended to be back around 1977 when the mag. went commercial? Why does the membership have to support a commercial magazine within the realm of an Internal Revenue Code 501 (c) (3)? If Fly RC, MAN, FM, etc. had such an opportunity they too would be much much more informative to the readers. Unfortunately, MA under the ''unrelated business'' status of a tax exempt organization has YOU to pay the bills.

Don't believe it! Go read the annual audits. If you can read a very basic Financial Audit Report, it's all there in black and white.
https://www.modelaircra...10financialstatement.pdf

Model Aviation costs YOU, an AMA member, twice or close to it, what the Public Liability Insurance program costs you. It darn well should be great! It has twice the staff working on it as there is working for membership.

As far as the FAI Programs, I don't care about FAI for myself, however if I had my way, FAI would be a top priority. Team members would be 100% First Class supported and all the News Medias would receive reports on how well they did. I stand strong for United States FIRST!
AMA is the U.S. Organization under the National Aeronautical Association, under the Federation Aeronautic International (sp ?) and should behave accordingly.

It seems that all the AMA and most of the membership want is to be just one big model airplane club. That is sad to me, but then I have been a modeler for almost 71 of my 76 years. It has been a way of life.
<<<<<


Hoss,
I think I’ll tiptoe through this minefield a bit. To begin, I like it. I liked it back in the 70’s before it “went commercial” and I liked it even better after. Each rendition over the years, with few exceptions, has been improvements and the latest rendition is outstanding in my opinion. Anyone can find fault if one looks hard enough and if the true intent back then was to become profitable or at least self-sufficient the good intentions back then sadly met the realities of the day. I think the best we could have done back then or can hope for today is to offset some of the expenses with advertising income without sacrificing content.

I believe that one of the core purposes of the creation of the AMA was competition and I too would like to see more funding and emphasis on national and international (FAI) competition. Unfortunately I believe we may be in the minority in that regard, but it could be the subject of its own thread.

To me your focus on the costs of the publications staff and MA is a bit misleading because MA is only one of a list of things. What about the Membership Manual, Sport Aviator, Park Pilot, and the various newsletters (Cloud 9, NATS News, AMA Insider, AMA Today and AMA Flightline) all of which are outstanding publications for the purposes they serve and I’m sure there are other things I have not listed.

Bottom line is; are we getting the best bang for our publications buck? Does MA serve the purpose for which it is intended?..... I emphatically think so.

Regards
Frank

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RE: SOS, DD - 5/3/2012 5:31 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnShe

Since the AMA is a non-profit club, the magazine is not allowed to make a profit or we would be faced with ungodly taxation issues.  It is our official journal of record.  It reports official club news to the members.  It is paid for out of our member dues and advertising.  What is your problem?  The magazine is great, it is useful, informative and fun.





John, may I suggest you go make yourself familiar with the term and rules governing a "non-profit" orgainization? Believe it or not "non-profits" can make profits, i.e. have income, keep it across fiscal years, and spend it.

The "non-profit" term ONLY applies to not redistributing those profits to the members or shareholders.

Nothing at all like you alude to.

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RE: SOS, DD - 5/3/2012 5:37 PM   
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KE, Thanks for the help, however there are a number of those that comprise the SOS-DD realm within their own positions. They rather yell, "NO, NO, Cannot Be!" than do some investigation and study the world around them. They would never understand the message in such as, http://www.ted.com/talks/tim_harford.html which I admit to probably being a little too leaning that way myself.

Yes, the old horse may well be dead, however if some do get the message and investigate for themselves that which is happening right under their noses, just maybe some will be adequately concerned to look at what IS happening and even better to THEN comprehend that WHICH COULD HAPPEN. However that has become the United States' way, where people to sit on their rear and then wonder WHAT happened.

With our little AMA becoming THE Community Based Organization, where in the not too distant future either belong to AMA or risk Federal violation if you don't, then there will no longer be any choices. Look at the 2011 EC elections. The top AMA EC officers are, IMO, simply two servants to the staff. What happened? On at least one ballot the most member-nominated was left off. The least likely to make any waves for the bureaucratic staff became President and EVP. That ballot was returned to AMA Hdqtrs. for count after many years of being auditor counted. BTW the Auditor counting came because in one election the Write-In votes were hidden by staff. Those write-in votes were found by the AMA Pres. and the result was a relected DVP by write-In. None of us will ever know the real politics that took place last year. Being there in that EC meeting I observed some items that pointed to what I believe. All water over the dam now. Still the big flood to come could be an eye opener AFTER THE FACT!

Reminds me of some almost 4 years ago when the whole world was changed by some 80 million idiots while some equal amount stayed away from an election and let it happen. This time next year may well see us all goose stepping. AMA will then be the last of our worries.


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RE: SOS, DD - 5/3/2012 6:09 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MajorTomski


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnShe

Since the AMA is a non-profit club, the magazine is not allowed to make a profit or we would be faced with ungodly taxation issues.  It is our official journal of record.  It reports official club news to the members.  It is paid for out of our member dues and advertising.  What is your problem?  The magazine is great, it is useful, informative and fun.





John, may I suggest you go make yourself familiar with the term and rules governing a ''non-profit'' orgainization? Believe it or not ''non-profits'' can make profits, i.e. have income, keep it across fiscal years, and spend it.

The ''non-profit'' term ONLY applies to not redistributing those profits to the members or shareholders.

Nothing at all like you alude to.



My wife works for a not for profit Catholic hospital system. The term they use is "excess revenue". It is not profit, just the money left over after covering expenses. It is reinvested into the system, used for capital improvement projects or, held on account to provide a reserve for operations.

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RE: SOS, DD - 5/3/2012 7:17 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hossfly

KE, Thanks for the help, however there are a number of those that comprise the SOS-DD realm within their own positions. They rather yell, ''NO, NO, Cannot Be!'' than do some investigation and study the world around them. They would never understand the message in such as, http://www.ted.com/talks/tim_harford.html which I admit to probably being a little too leaning that way myself.

Yes, the old horse may well be dead, however if some do get the message and investigate for themselves that which is happening right under their noses, just maybe some will be adequately concerned to look at what IS happening and even better to THEN comprehend that WHICH COULD HAPPEN. However that has become the United States' way, where people to sit on their rear and then wonder WHAT happened.

With our little AMA becoming THE Community Based Organization, where in the not too distant future either belong to AMA or risk Federal violation if you don't, then there will no longer be any choices. Look at the 2011 EC elections. The top AMA EC officers are, IMO, simply two servants to the staff. What happened? On at least one ballot the most member-nominated was left off. The least likely to make any waves for the bureaucratic staff became President and EVP. That ballot was returned to AMA Hdqtrs. for count after many years of being auditor counted. BTW the Auditor counting came because in one election the Write-In votes were hidden by staff. Those write-in votes were found by the AMA Pres. and the result was a relected DVP by write-In. None of us will ever know the real politics that took place last year. Being there in that EC meeting I observed some items that pointed to what I believe. All water over the dam now. Still the big flood to come could be an eye opener AFTER THE FACT!

Reminds me of some almost 4 years ago when the whole world was changed by some 80 million idiots while some equal amount stayed away from an election and let it happen. This time next year may well see us all goose stepping. AMA will then be the last of our worries.



It makes you wonder why one with the talent and apparent knowledge to get things changed goes out of his way to become unelectable time and time again, even when running against dolts with questionable abilities, with his Genghis Khan approach to fixing the problems and then surrounds himself with an ineffective gang of surly AMA "occupiers". SOS-DD


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RE: SOS, DD - 5/3/2012 7:40 PM   
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RED

First time I am agreeing with you. What is this world coming too?

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RE: SOS, DD - 5/3/2012 7:51 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R


quote:

ORIGINAL: MajorTomski


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnShe

Since the AMA is a non-profit club, the magazine is not allowed to make a profit or we would be faced with ungodly taxation issues.  It is our official journal of record.  It reports official club news to the members.  It is paid for out of our member dues and advertising.  What is your problem?  The magazine is great, it is useful, informative and fun.





John, may I suggest you go make yourself familiar with the term and rules governing a ''non-profit'' orgainization? Believe it or not ''non-profits'' can make profits, i.e. have income, keep it across fiscal years, and spend it.

The ''non-profit'' term ONLY applies to not redistributing those profits to the members or shareholders.

Nothing at all like you alude to.



My wife works for a not for profit Catholic hospital system. The term they use is "excess revenue". It is not profit, just the money left over after covering expenses. It is reinvested into the system, used for capital improvement projects or, held on account to provide a reserve for operations.


The "excess revenue" from corporations are often simply reinvested into the corporations as research, plant improvements, etc.  In fact some of the best stocks to buy are the ones that do not use "excess revenue" to pay out dividends, but instead use it to grow the company.  But they still have to report the "excess revenue" as profit and pay taxes on them.  Then we pay their tax's for them when we buy their profits.  Then we demand that we pay no or little tax's, and demand that we get welfare, health care, and other entitlements: then wonder why products keep going up and up without the inflation index going up.


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RE: SOS, DD - 5/3/2012 8:00 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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quote:

In that regard why is it not a profit making "Unrelated Business" as it was so intended to be back around 1977 when the mag. went commercial?


So we are not just beating a dead horse are we?  No, we are beating a horse skeleton!

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RE: SOS, DD - 5/3/2012 8:27 PM   
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If I understand the OP, which isn't easy, he's suggesting that Model Aviation has been losing money. But, if you look at "Note A" to the financial statements, you will see that the AMA reported a profit in both 2009 and 2010 from its unrelated business activities, the largest of which seems to be Model Aviation. (These profits were not taxed because there was a loss carryover from earlier years.) So it looks to me as if the AMA was making money on MA in 2009 and 2010. To be sure, the calculation of the "profit" on just some of an organization's activities is somewhat arbitrary, as it depends upon allocations the accountants make of various expenses like overhead, so it takes a lot more than the ability to "read a very basic Financial Audit Report" to be confident of that conclusion.

But, as I said earlier, I can't really tell what the point of the original post was supposed to be. Some of the posts in this thread, however, seem to assume that Model Aviation is a revenue loser, which it isn't, at least for these two years. Whether it would make or lose money by itself, if it weren't something AMA members have to pay for with part of their dues, is a question no one can answer; certainly not from these financial statements.

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RE: SOS, DD - 5/3/2012 10:33 PM   
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I stop in from over a year of not looking into this forum and its like i never left with the same old subjects .Not only is talk about the same things its got most of the same people except the ferrit.WELL back to building my planes and flying i will see you all in another year. lmao joe

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RE: SOS, DD - 5/4/2012 12:09 AM   
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Hi Joe,
Glad to see you're still alive and kicking!

As for your post...I could not have said it better myself! The only thing I can add is that with all the solutions that have been posted to all the "perceived" AMA failures as an organization, NOT ONE HAS BEEN IMPLIMENTED! YET the AMA is still going on. Guess that sums up what the "solutions" are worth....lmao!

I just finished putting all new gaskets in my Triumph, the weather is in the 80's, so I guess I too will be back in year...

Keep Hammerin'

Don

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RE: SOS, DD - 5/4/2012 1:10 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tinner1

Hi Joe,
Glad to see you're still alive and kicking!

As for your post...I could not have said it better myself! The only thing I can add is that with all the solutions that have been posted to all the ''perceived'' AMA failures as an organization, NOT ONE HAS BEEN IMPLIMENTED! YET the AMA is still going on. Guess that sums up what the ''solutions'' are worth....lmao!

I just finished putting all new gaskets in my Triumph, the weather is in the 80's, so I guess I too will be back in year...

Keep Hammerin'

Don

Lol hi tinner i just put adjustable valve pushrods in my road king ,harley is too cheap to put them in new harleys but when they wear out at 30,000 miles they sell a kit for 200,00 extra bucks like i did not spend enough money when i bought it new. lmao Keep a eye on all these guys who dont want my nice reading ama mag i think about them helping me pay for it and smile while i read . joe

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RE: SOS, DD - 5/4/2012 2:01 AM   
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You make my point, there is no reason for the magazine to make a profit.  Any excess earnings cannot be used to reduce member dues, they can only be used to improve the magazine.


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RE: SOS, DD - 5/4/2012 2:35 AM   
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This is from today's AvWeb, a full-scale site:

quote:

The word groupthink has been coined to describe a common phenomenon in which a desire for harmony overrides a realistic analysis of alternatives. This emphasis on maintaining the group's cohesion and togetherness can result in bad decisions, because differing points of view are not expressed. The description of the kind of group most susceptible to groupthink sounds like the definition of a flight crew - a cohesive, task-oriented, problem-solving group isolated from conflicting opinions, with an open and directive leader and a lack of any formal decision-making process.  


It sounds a lot like us - at least, some of us. 

And one of my personal favorites:

quote:

"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds." 
  -  Albert Einstein


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RE: SOS, DD - 5/4/2012 2:48 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnShe

You make my point, there is no reason for the magazine to make a profit.  Any excess earnings cannot be used to reduce member dues, they can only be used to improve the magazine.


Yes john but you see some of the very cheap arses around here think it would cut their dues price down so this goes on year after year when anything about the mag is brought up . I think some of this is funny but sad in other ways .Without a AMA mag it would be even harder to promote this hobby and attract new younger members. The new youth program online is just getting started and i hope it does well but the mag reaches out to alot more people as of now. I give my old mags to my sons school and other places where young learning eyes can see them on the hopes to keep this great hobby going. To the others here who dont like the mag you havent changed anything since ive been here or in the ama for 30 years now and i dont see you changing anything soon.Good luck with this and the next fifty threads like it. It always starts out asking how and why the mag has gotten better or worce then slowly turns into a cheap skate free forall ,lmao OH ! the cheap ones dont realy care if the the hobby or the ama continues after they kick the bucket all they want is some more coffie money on the weekends or golfballs to keep them happy now. Good bye all iam back to my building and my 9 year pld son is learning to fly this year so we are building a new trainer for his bad self. joe

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RE: SOS, DD - 5/4/2012 6:55 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Top_Gunn

If I understand the OP, which isn't easy, he's suggesting that Model Aviation has been losing money. But, if you look at ''Note A'' to the financial statements, you will see that the AMA reported a profit in both 2009 and 2010 from its unrelated business activities, the largest of which seems to be Model Aviation. (These profits were not taxed because there was a loss carryover from earlier years.) So it looks to me as if the AMA was making money on MA in 2009 and 2010. To be sure, the calculation of the ''profit'' on just some of an organization's activities is somewhat arbitrary, as it depends upon allocations the accountants make of various expenses like overhead, so it takes a lot more than the ability to ''read a very basic Financial Audit Report'' to be confident of that conclusion.

But, as I said earlier, I can't really tell what the point of the original post was supposed to be. Some of the posts in this thread, however, seem to assume that Model Aviation is a revenue loser, which it isn't, at least for these two years. Whether it would make or lose money by itself, if it weren't something AMA members have to pay for with part of their dues, is a question no one can answer; certainly not from these financial statements.


Al, you must be from the "New Math" that rose up some years ago. Model Aviation does not make a profit and loss carryovers are common in business as well as Long Term Capital Gains & Losses for anyone that have such. Same goes for various amounts of Investment Interest Expense, BTDT but not in a number of years.
The 2011 Audit Report does not have the pages of previous reports defining exact amounts of MA Expense, however right before the eyes of anyone reading the report are thse figures:

Model Aviation magazine direct costs ....($1,711,226.00) ...... Up from 1,655,029 2010. About 3.4%. Not Bad!

Model Aviation advertising .....................815,405
Model Aviation subscriptions,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,34,675

Total Income: ....................................... ....$ 850,080.00

Net Income / (Loss) ................................ ($861,146.00) If over 3/4 million yankee $$ loss is a PROFIT then someone must be government Trained.

Not included is the staff, As of 05-03-2012, the Publications Staff had 11 persons assigned. Their expense is NOT in the cost of MA.
Membership had 9 persons assigned, 2 of which seems to be out of place as 1 Telephone operator and 1 shipping clerk.
Could they be there to make the Membership look a little closer to the Publications Department? ????

AMA Audit Reports are about as simple as an Audit Report gets.

And to johnshe, you too have a wrongful position. Monies from an "Unrelated Business" of an IRC 501 (C) (3)Non-Profit can be used like any other funds, other than distributions, etc. yet moneies have a way to fill in where other monies can be used.

Have you read the last EC Meeting, 4/'12?

Those boys used your funds to gather in Muncie to discuss and approve one item: Paraphrased, to approve the principle of a separate administration and accounting for the charitable donation of non-dues revenue. The audit showed, IIRC. $120 for that item. Heck, I donated more than that and what about all those lists of donors in the past 6 months of folks donating monies. That must have been included in Membership monies, but now no breakdowns are displayed.

To the rest of you: Aren't you glad I got you away from that boring crap about letters to airports drivel?


_____________________________

Horrace Cain AMA L-93

“Peace is the brief glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading." T. Jefferson

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RE: SOS, DD - 5/4/2012 7:16 AM   
vpresley



Posts: 654
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Hoss

You obviosly have some axe to grind, and have always seemed willing to let god and everybody in on it. I am glad your not in my club. I am sorry you are a member of the AMA, as you always seem to have a PROBLEM of some sort with something, most of the time. Again willing to tell every one and any one. You have set yourself up as some PSEUDO SPOKESMAN on just about anything AMA. I for one wish you and your little friends would just go fly and be happy, if possible. If not possible, then just go fly. Who am I? just some one tired of your constant prattle. Please go fly.


Vince AMA 7051

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RE: SOS, DD - 5/4/2012 1:20 PM   
Top_Gunn


 

Posts: 888
Score: 134
Joined: 6/27/2005
Last Login: 5/23/2013
From: Granger, IN, USA
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quote:

Model Aviation does not make a profit


And yet, according to the very financial statements you linked to, it does (or at least the AMA's unrelated businesses as a whole did, and MA seems to be the main unrelated business). The fact that "loss carryovers are common" in businesses has nothing to do with the question whether MA made a profit in 2009 and 2010. It's statements like these that make it hard to see what your point is. You make a true but completely irrelevant statement about loss carryovers (as well as long term capital gains and losses, which have absolutely nothing to do with the matter) as if that were somehow a rebuttal of something I had said. It would make as much, or as little, sense to include some passages from Shakespeare or random selections from a textbook on engineering and say that this showed that AMA's finances were screwy.

(I am also puzzled by another poster's claim that excess earnings can't be used to reduce member dues. No reason for that statement is given, and it makes no sense: excess earnings can be used for anything the AMA wants to use them for. Whether the AMA uses them wisely is, of course, another matter, on which I have no opinion.)

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Al Gunn
Ultra Sport Brotherhood No. 9

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RE: SOS, DD - 5/4/2012 2:21 PM   
joebahl


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vpresley

Hoss

You obviosly have some axe to grind, and have always seemed willing to let god and everybody in on it. I am glad your not in my club. I am sorry you are a member of the AMA, as you always seem to have a PROBLEM of some sort with something, most of the time. Again willing to tell every one and any one. You have set yourself up as some PSEUDO SPOKESMAN on just about anything AMA. I for one wish you and your little friends would just go fly and be happy, if possible. If not possible, then just go fly. Who am I? just some one tired of your constant prattle. Please go fly.


Vince AMA 7051

I use to be able to just take hoss or leave him but iam starting to agree with you and his coment about 4 years ago got to me also .I remember the years before 4years ago since most of hosses kind want to forget it . We got extra wars more tax breaks for oil companys and a screwed up economy . I almost never talk about politics here but he brought it up. joe

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