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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/8/2012 5:35 PM   
Robrow



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ORIGINAL: HarryC

quote:

ORIGINAL: schroedm

George,

I THINK Harry was asking if you can have the rudder axis gyro working on the nose steering and rudder in a scenario where you 'disable' the nose steering when gear is retracted (i.e. with rudder/nose steering on separate channels)

???

Cheers,
Mark

That's correct Mark. It looks as if the rudder output has to be split by Y lead or electronic box to the steering servo so they both get the same gyro all the time.
H.



All that technology and you still have to use a y lead? Could always use it in combo with our Electron landing gear ecu which does split off rudder/nws and also centres/disables nws on retraction command and visa versa.

Very nice piece of kit all the same, can it be used with non bus systems?

Rob.

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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/8/2012 6:18 PM   
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ORIGINAL: Fortune7

As with all Powerbox stuff I'm sure it'll be a winner, but I'm intrigued how the GPS/gyro gain will compensate in big vertical manoevers, where the GPS can't be expected to give an accurate groundspeed. Surely input from a pitot-static airspeed sensor would be a bit more robust or have I missed something?
Certainly not product bashing but having set-up a roll - gyro accurately (Weatronics Micro 12 / gyro III) the wing wobble comes in very quickly if gain is too high for the airspeed. In a vertical dive which with a jet can be a few seconds, just wondering how the 'smartness' can sort that out.

Cheers, Andy



Andy

It has a 3-D GPS with multple satelites giving data...so vertical element is covered :-))

Dave

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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/8/2012 6:21 PM   
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Status: offline 		I'd need to check...but guess the Germans expect pilots to be able to use the rudder stick to steer on the ground...I've flown several hundred jets and never felt the need for a nose wheel steering gyro...

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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/8/2012 6:56 PM   
Fortune7


 

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ORIGINAL: Dave Wilshere


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fortune7

As with all Powerbox stuff I'm sure it'll be a winner, but I'm intrigued how the GPS/gyro gain will compensate in big vertical manoevers, where the GPS can't be expected to give an accurate groundspeed. Surely input from a pitot-static airspeed sensor would be a bit more robust or have I missed something?
Certainly not product bashing but having set-up a roll - gyro accurately (Weatronics Micro 12 / gyro III) the wing wobble comes in very quickly if gain is too high for the airspeed. In a vertical dive which with a jet can be a few seconds, just wondering how the 'smartness' can sort that out.

Cheers, Andy



Andy

It has a 3-D GPS with multple satelites giving data...so vertical element is covered :-))

Dave


Hmmm, can't really agree with that logic Dave; reception geometry with satellites - even with the receiver seeing several at a time - will never give accurate vertical position or (hence) vertical speed. Where the rate of change of height is small, like when driving a car, a GPS will give a height-above-sea-level readout, but it's nothing like as accurate as surface position and (hence) groundspeed. You won't (as far as I know) find full size aircraft making much accurate use of GPS altitude (e.g.) on approaches. They use barometric or radar information. My Weatronic setup in the Eurosport logs GPS height and position, and Barometric altitude/height and airspeed, through a pitot-static sensor. The post-flight graphs clearly show the GPS doesn't have the vertical position/speed accuracy when plotted alongside the baro. info.

Again, I'm not criticising the product (so no need for defensive responses!) but I'm just interested in how they (PowerBox) resolve the issue, which if we are to believe the marketing, they have.

Cheers, Andy

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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/8/2012 7:37 PM   
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I'm no techno wizz, I hate electricity, as it can hurt you and you don't see it coming I'm a mechanical engineer...but Powerbox...V V V clever people and I can assure you they have done their home work. The system works...
Anyway, the iGyro could have 6-8 sats to look at, minimum 3 to start up and the way the gain adjust works, I'm sure it will cope with the vertical element speed too....sleep well on that one!

Dave



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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/8/2012 7:41 PM   
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Status: offline 		Sorry if this is a double post, the functionality looks similar to the Gyrobot 900 (that uses a pitot sensor for speed/gain mapping), If PB can get this to work this is half the price of the gyrobot they have a winner.

http://www.lf-technik.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p4329_GyroBot-900-Wing-Jet.html

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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/8/2012 7:42 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HarryC

quote:

ORIGINAL: schroedm

George,

I THINK Harry was asking if you can have the rudder axis gyro working on the nose steering and rudder in a scenario where you 'disable' the nose steering when gear is retracted (i.e. with rudder/nose steering on separate channels)

???

Cheers,
Mark

That's correct Mark. It looks as if the rudder output has to be split by Y lead or electronic box to the steering servo so they both get the same gyro all the time.
H.


I'm with Dave on this. From stationary to take off you ought to be able to steer! I'd rather have the gyro damping out oscillations in milliseconds in flight than trying to steer on the ground. Having said that, Powerbox are an excellent company and listen to ideas and feedback so who knows what iGyro 2 will do

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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/8/2012 8:24 PM   
Dave Wilshere


 

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ORIGINAL: mr_matt

Sorry if this is a double post, the functionality looks similar to the Gyrobot 900 (that uses a pitot sensor for speed/gain mapping), If PB can get this to work this is half the price of the gyrobot they have a winner.

http://www.lf-technik.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p4329_GyroBot-900-Wing-Jet.html


I have a friend using the Gyrobot and he's looking at trying this alongside...so we should know after :-)

Dave W

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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/8/2012 10:01 PM   
DelGatoGrande



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quote:

ORIGINAL: schroedm

quote:

ORIGINAL: HarryC

quote:

ORIGINAL: schroedm

George,

I THINK Harry was asking if you can have the rudder axis gyro working on the nose steering and rudder in a scenario where you 'disable' the nose steering when gear is retracted (i.e. with rudder/nose steering on separate channels)

???

Cheers,
Mark

That's correct Mark. It looks as if the rudder output has to be split by Y lead or electronic box to the steering servo so they both get the same gyro all the time.
H.


I'm with Dave on this. From stationary to take off you ought to be able to steer! I'd rather have the gyro damping out oscillations in milliseconds in flight than trying to steer on the ground. Having said that, Powerbox are an excellent company and listen to ideas and feedback so who knows what iGyro 2 will do


There are jet models with narrow main gears and the need of a high speed for take off... like some heavy F15s or F18s for example.
Even if you have master your steering input it takes only one sec to loose it and to damage your jet big time.This is why IMHO steering gyro is a must for this kind models.

There is no need for a Y lead to control steering and rudder in a PoweBox setup.
For example if the PowerBox Competition SRS is used you can assign your rudder channel to exit A that will come from the iGyro.
On exit A you will plug your rudder servo and finish program it from the radio.Then on the "gang up/maching" exit below that is also A output you can plug your steering servo.
Then you can use the servo programing future to set the center and end points you like.This saves you a channel .

For the ones looking your steering servo also to be disable when gear is retracted, you need to use another channel with no gyro help ,or extra gyro and make the mix of disable when gear is up,

..in some cases i use a normal on/push spring switch triggered by the gear it self , that cuts off the power of the steering servo when gear is retracted .


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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/8/2012 11:01 PM   
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Status: offline 		can someone sign me up for the masters program for setup and operation? Just from conversation on here I feel like my head wants to explode, just like after I ready Futaba gyro book


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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/9/2012 2:02 AM   
Joe Westrich



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Status: offline 		Do you have to run a Powerbox distribution system to run this iGyro. Could you run it straight from my 6014 Rx?

Also, who will be selling them at Joe Nall?

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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/9/2012 7:27 AM   
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No, you can run with or without...

If you email me I can send you the manual... motrot@aol.com

Regards

Dave




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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/9/2012 7:36 AM   
DelGatoGrande



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Status: online 		FenderBean and rest , i just got the manual of the iGyro too.But i can't upload it cause its too big for RCU.
This manual has wiring examples and will take headaches away

Joe no you need a receiver with a serial signal interface port.Like the new R6203SB http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXARPB&P=ML
A PowerBox Competition SRS will pump out of this receiver 14ch for you anyway.

The new iGyro is design to be used with Futaba S-Bus , Spektrum DSM2 , DSM X, , Multiplex , HoTT , Jeti ,Weatronic and in some weeks JR DSSM.
This serial interface receivers are the future and PowerBox does not make electronics that have no future.The iGyro is a big step towards the future and a big step in the modeling
Its like making a product now days that is not 2.4 compatible!...maybe 5 years ago would work for a while.


At Joe Nall , Mr.Emmerich Deutsch its self ,the managing director of PowerBox,will present the iGyro.

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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/9/2012 9:08 AM   
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Status: online 		Can any of you send me the manual for the iGyro (chg (at) moonbounce.dk) ???

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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/9/2012 9:26 AM   
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ORIGINAL: Carsten Groen

Can any of you send me the manual for the iGyro (chg (at) moonbounce.dk) ???


Mate, you have mail!

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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/9/2012 3:29 PM   
HarryC


 

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and never felt the need for a nose wheel steering gyro...

Nor have I, yet, but a steering gyro thread/question/comment pops up on here fairly regularly so it matters to some folks.
H.


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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/9/2012 4:55 PM   
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I have a friend using the Gyrobot and he's looking at trying this alongside...so we should know after :-)




Well from what I have seen the gyrobot is the gold standard. If Powerbox can duplicate gyrobot performance at that lower price point, they will set a boatload of these. And no hassle of installing and maintaining a pitot static tube!

I am no GPS expert, but GPS solutions require a group of satellites to be tracked. If the satellite grouping is well distributed over the visible sky then I don't know why Z axis (altitude, vertical speed, etc) cannot be calculated with some precision. I do know that if you track a pack of satellites all in the same region of the sky (like when city driving and the rest of the constellation is shielded by buildings) you can get a crappy solution even in the X-Y plane.

And there are fairly inexpenisve high update rate GPS receivers now (10Hz).....even better for highly dynamic applications. I think the high power rocket guys use these with some success, and they are certainly going straight up for at least part of the flight (hopefully!) at 10 G plus.

The power box guys are clever, can't wait to see how it works!

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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/9/2012 5:41 PM   
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ORIGINAL: mr_matt

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Wilshere

I have a friend using the Gyrobot and he's looking at trying this alongside...so we should know after :-)




Well from what I have seen the gyrobot is the gold standard. If Powerbox can duplicate gyrobot performance at that lower price point, they will set a boatload of these. And no hassle of installing and maintaining a pitot static tube!

I am no GPS expert, but GPS solutions require a group of satellites to be tracked. If the satellite grouping is well distributed over the visible sky then I don't know why Z axis (altitude, vertical speed, etc) cannot be calculated with some precision. I do know that if you track a pack of satellites all in the same region of the sky (like when city driving and the rest of the constellation is shielded by buildings) you can get a crappy solution even in the X-Y plane.

And there are fairly inexpenisve high update rate GPS receivers now (10Hz).....even better for highly dynamic applications. I think the high power rocket guys use these with some success, and they are certainly going straight up for at least part of the flight (hopefully!) at 10 G plus.

The power box guys are clever, can't wait to see how it works!


There's a shed-load of information about GPS accuracy on the net; here's a typical example:

"GPS accuracy
Although GPS receivers give you exact positions—for example, 34° 28' 18.8765"N, 122° 15' 34.0832"W, 302.56 meters elevation—it is important to understand that there is some amount of uncertainty, or error, inherent in these positions. A number of factors contribute to this error including satellite clock drift, atmospheric conditions, measurement noise, and multipath. In addition, due to the satellite geometry, vertical accuracy (elevation) is generally one and a half to three times worse than horizontal accuracy. You should consider each GPS position as a box, and you are somewhere within that box. The size of that box depends on the overall accuracy of your GPS receiver".

So with lower vertical GPS accuracy and a high rate-of-change of airspeed e.g. in the downline of a big loop, I'm still intrigued as to how the wonder box can alter gain sufficiently quickly to prevent over control of a surface leading to control oscillation, on GPS sensing alone. I guess I'll have to learn technical German to find out!

Andy



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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/9/2012 6:00 PM   
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Status: offline 		Exactly, if the satellite geometry is bad (all 4 satellites are in a 20 degree cone in the sky) all of the calculations are degraded, X and Y axis included. If they are distributed well in the sky, then verticle might not be so bad. The point is, with decent satellite geometry teh Z solution might be "good enough" for what they are doing. Need the pudding at this point.

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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/9/2012 6:11 PM   
Dave Wilshere


 

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Status: offline 		Luckily...we don't need to know how the maths work...it just does When I questioned again these points I had a short sharp email saying you really think we would have missed this?? My answer, no. These guys are very special and have thought outside the box so many times...I'm 100% sure its going to be great.

Its not like the speed thing is totally controlling the gain, its just stopping over gain the way I read it...

Dave

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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/9/2012 6:26 PM   
Carsten Groen



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Status: online 		Remember it is only for absolute positions (X,Y,Z) that you see most of the problems in GPS, here we are using the "second to second" changes, so the speed would be relatively ok (but if the constallation is _very_ bad, problems might occur, but fortunately the constallation is not often so, and the GPS receiver knows the constallation all the time, AZ/EL of all satelittes so could take that into account )

I'm really looking forward to this product.
I had been looking at the GyroBot for some time, but according to a friend it is a PITA to setup and adjust (and on top of that it is not exactly cheap...), so the the PowerBox unit looks interesting !


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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/9/2012 7:02 PM   
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Exactly, if the satellite geometry is bad (all 4 satellites are in a 20 degree cone in the sky) all of the calculations are degraded, X and Y axis included. If they are distributed well in the sky, then verticle might not be so bad. The point is, with decent satellite geometry teh Z solution might be ''good enough'' for what they are doing. Need the pudding at this point.


When determining you Latitude and Longitude you most likely have satellites on all sides of your position, when determining altitude they can only be on one side of your position, tougher problem.

A good filter should be able to coast through this issue. A bad filter will tell you that you broke the speed of sound, been there, seen that, setting still on a bench.

Looks like a very neat unit.

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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/9/2012 7:15 PM   
mr_matt



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When determining you Latitude and Longitude you most likely have satellites on all sides of your position,



not always, cities can be tough and one OEM we worked with had a test route picked out in Northern california that masked the sky pretty well (trees, cliffs, etc).....they always tested on it....of course it was also a beautiful drive and made its way through wine country...wonder if that had anything to do with selecting the test route.

quote:

ORIGINAL: S_Ellzey

A good filter should be able to coast through this issue.



Agreed!

quote:

ORIGINAL: S_Ellzey

Looks like a very neat unit.



Agreed!

Does anyone that has the manual know if the required GPS sensor add on uses a standard interface or it is a Powerbox proprietary device?

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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/13/2012 3:45 PM   
DelGatoGrande



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http://powerbox-systems.com/e/powerbox_systeme/powerbox_igyro/start.php





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RE: Powerbox iGyro - 5/13/2012 9:12 PM   
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ORIGINAL: Dave Wilshere
Available any day....


Any update on availability Dave? 



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