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What is up with this new engine??? - 5/7/2012 4:42 PM   
captinjohn


 

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Status: offline 		New engine video....   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9Sooc9RVxo&feature=player_embedded

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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/7/2012 4:57 PM   
SrTelemaster150



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Status: offline 		IMO going from ignition to glow is a giant step backwards.

IME ignition improves power & fuel economy, at least in converted 4-stroke engines running glow fuel on EI. I would think that gasoline would see even more improvements W/ignition over glow.

The small amount of added weight in anyting larger enough to carry the ignition module & extra battery pack is not significant.

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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/7/2012 5:01 PM   
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Status: offline 		That is an engine that runs on gasoline using a glow plug.

http://enya-engine.com/180XGS_E.html

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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/7/2012 5:34 PM   
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Status: offline 		Yes that is a special engine design from Enya, it uses gasoline instead of methanol and nitromethane in the fuel. Now Enya does sell a special oil that is required to be mixed with the gasoline. Other than you need the special Enya oil for the engine, it isn't bad. It runs pretty good. At present Enya is not selling the engine outside of Japan.  I think the gasoline they use in Japan is different from our gasoline they use here in the USA, so it is debatable on whether it would work here or not. I almost forgot, I think they use a special glow plug too.




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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/7/2012 7:10 PM   
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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/7/2012 9:51 PM   
SrTelemaster150



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

That is an engine that runs on gasoline using a glow plug.

http://enya-engine.com/180XGS_E.html



Which begs the question-Why?

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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/7/2012 10:28 PM   
earlwb


 

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Status: offline 		Gasoline tends to be more inexpensive in comparison to glow fuel, especially glow fuel with nitromethane in it. So there have been people interested in it as with a glow plug, one gets away from needing a spark ignition system and its associated equipment.

Yeah it is a bummer about how the Japanese Yen keeps going up in value while the US dollar keeps going down in value. It sure sucks to have to pay the higher price for Enya engines if you want one. 




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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/7/2012 11:15 PM   
Hobbsy



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Status: offline 		So you lose the Fred Flintstone aged ignition system.

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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/8/2012 1:48 AM   
SrTelemaster150



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

So you lose the Fred Flintstone aged ignition system.



Compared to a modern CDI ignition system, a glow ignition is primitive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: earlwb

Gasoline tends to be more inexpensive in comparison to glow fuel, especially glow fuel with nitromethane in it. So there have been people interested in it as with a glow plug, one gets away from needing a spark ignition system and its associated equipment.


An electronic ignition is no more expensive or complicated than an on-board glow driver & it's a lot more convenient than using an external glow power source.

I'm converting ALL of my Saitos, a 91, a 150, two 180s, a 200 TI twin & a 300 TTDP twin to C&H electronic ignition. I get 6%-10% more power & 25% better fuel economy. I see no advantage to running a large gas 2-stroke on glow ignition.

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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/8/2012 3:22 AM   
earlwb


 

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Status: offline 		Cool. I do not blame you at all. I even say go for it. That is what makes this hobby so great as there is something for everyone everywhere.



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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/8/2012 4:01 AM   
captinjohn


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

So you lose the Fred Flintstone aged ignition system.



Compared to a modern CDI ignition system, a glow ignition is primitive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: earlwb

Gasoline tends to be more inexpensive in comparison to glow fuel, especially glow fuel with nitromethane in it. So there have been people interested in it as with a glow plug, one gets away from needing a spark ignition system and its associated equipment.


An electronic ignition is no more expensive or complicated than an on-board glow driver & it's a lot more convenient than using an external glow power source.

I'm converting ALL of my Saitos, a 91, a 150, two 180s, a 200 TI twin & a 300 TTDP twin to C&H electronic ignition. I get 6%-10% more power & 25% better fuel economy. I see no advantage to running a large gas 2-stroke on glow ignition.

I dis-agree on that. Lets make a list.
1. No ignition unit to buy.
2. No worry on placement of CD unit.
3. No Ignition battery to buy.
4. No charging of a ignition battery.
5. No ignition switch needed or to replace ...viabration kills em.
6. No sparkplug cap that needs a secure ground or clamp.
7. No sparkplug wire to route or maintain.
8. No RF interference from a CD ignition to worry about.
9. No special advance curve on ignition...wrong curve...idle will jump RPM
10. Lite weight with many less electrical componets needed.
11. Just real simple to start & run. It does not get any more easy.

Thanks Capt,n  PS if they are like Gas/glow engines...the Idle is slower and smooth.

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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/8/2012 1:08 PM   
Hobbsy



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Status: offline 		Your #1 reason is axactly why I said you could lose it the ignition system.

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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/8/2012 1:28 PM   
SrTelemaster150



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quote:

ORIGINAL: captinjohn


I dis-agree on that. Lets make a list.


OK by me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: captinjohn
1. No ignition unit to buy.


With glow ignition you either buy an on board glow driver or deal W/the inconvenience of a clip on device.
If you have several battery packs you can use the same type pack as you use for your RX as an ignition battery. Hardly a deal breaker to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: captinjohn
2. No worry on placement of CD unit.


With glow ignition you must either "place" an onboard glow system in the plane or "place" an external glow power device on the glow plug to start the engine, remove it after starting & then "place" it somewhere when you remove it after starting. You must do this "double placement" EVERY TIME you start you glow engine.

With EI you merely turn on the switch, start the engine & take off. I have never had to add ballast weight to a plane for proper CG. I just use the "placement of the ignition module & battery as ballast.

quote:

ORIGINAL: captinjohn
3. No Ignition battery to buy.


With glow ignition you must buy an external glow driver (battery) If you use an existing glow device, the same can be said for an ignition battery. Just use one of the many battery packs uased for Rx.

quote:

ORIGINAL: captinjohn
4. No charging of a ignition battery.



With glow ignition you have to "charge" the battery for the glow power.


quote:

ORIGINAL: captinjohn
5. No ignition switch needed or to replace ...viabration kills em.


I use the same type switch for igniton that I use for my Rx. If these switches are unreliable then loss of the RX would be much worse than loosing engine power. That could happen W/a glow engine too.


quote:

ORIGINAL: captinjohn
6. No sparkplug cap that needs a secure ground or clamp.


I use a McDaniels plug cap. It pushes on & twists to lock on just like a glow driver. It has a grounded shield in the wire, no external ground needed although I do run a wire from the module to the engine case.

quote:

ORIGINAL: captinjohn
7. No sparkplug wire to route or maintain.


I have not had to replace a sparkplug wire yet


quote:

ORIGINAL: captinjohn
8. No RF interference from a CD ignition to worry about.


This comes under the heading of proper set up. I've never had any RF interference in the plane. Just keep some distance between the ignition system & the RX/servos & use a non metalic throttle linkage.


quote:

ORIGINAL: captinjohn
9. No special advance curve on ignition...wrong curve...idle will jump RPM



With glow ignition you have no advance curve to help W/smooth transition. Buy a quality EI system & you will have the proper advance curve for the engine. Buy a cheap Chinese knock off & that might not be the case.


quote:

ORIGINAL: captinjohn
11. Just real simple to start & run. It does not get any more easy.



With glow ignition you must clip on a glow power device to start your engine, remove it after it starts, then place the glow power device somewhere before you can fly.

It's much simpler to turn on an ignition switch, start the engine & take off.

quote:

ORIGINAL: captinjohn
Thanks Capt,n PS if they are like Gas/glow engines...the Idle is slower and smooth.



This last statement is just ludicrous. After going from glow to electronic ignition I can typically get 300-400 RPM lower reliable idle & easier starting. I also typically get 150-200 more RPM on top. That = more HP!

If you are intimidated by setting up an ignition system then so be it. It does take some knowledge & skill to set up EI. Some lack these talents so in those cases, glow might be a more attractive alternative.

Run glow if you can't properly set up an EI system, but don't try to make it sound like an improvement.


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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/8/2012 1:53 PM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		Ignition systems are a hobby in themselves. Glow made this hobby. Is one better ? Always arguable. But if ignition was the solution, why was glow invented? I like ignition with glow there is some advantages, but they are small and for the experimenter more than the public.

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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/8/2012 2:17 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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quote:

With glow ignition you have no advance curve to help W/smooth transition.


That is not true, the advance curve is built into the plug, the plug retains heat better as the engine speeds up as there is less time between power cycles.  This has the effect of advancing the timing at full speed.  Also much effort has been made with this natural timing advance with more recent glow plug designs.  Plugs that were the right heat range at full speed and too cold at idle are using a thicker element with more platinum in the alloy to keep the plug hotter at idle for example.

Ignition does give more precise timing, however the advantage may not significantly increas RPM.  A recent poster had only 100 more RPM on glow fuel when adding an ignition system on a glow engine.  However he can now run gasoline or any methanol/gas mix he feels gives him the right power and economy combiniation he desires.

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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/8/2012 4:30 PM   
SrTelemaster150



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

quote:

With glow ignition you have no advance curve to help W/smooth transition.


That is not true, the advance curve is built into the plug, the plug retains heat better as the engine speeds up as there is less time between power cycles. This has the effect of advancing the timing at full speed. Also much effort has been made with this natural timing advance with more recent glow plug designs. Plugs that were the right heat range at full speed and too cold at idle are using a thicker element with more platinum in the alloy to keep the plug hotter at idle for example.

Ignition does give more precise timing, however the advantage may not significantly increas RPM. A recent poster had only 100 more RPM on glow fuel when adding an ignition system on a glow engine. However he can now run gasoline or any methanol/gas mix he feels gives him the right power and economy combiniation he desires.



100 RPM @ the top of is significant when a large prop is involved & the fuel consumpsion is factored in. My FA 150 gained 150 RPM W/a Dynathrust 18X8 prop, 7700 to 7850 RPM & ran 23% longer on the same 16oz 15% Cool Power fuel load. That equated to a gain of .155 HP & .67# of thrust on .81 power/fuel factor.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11069268

Take the increased HP/.81 & it equates to 31% more HP per fuel units consumed.

2.759HP/2.607HP = 5.8% increase 1.058/.81 = 1.306 = 31%

Also, the HP increase of the EI over glow was taken @ the initial timing advance setting of 28* BTDC. When I tested the E85/Klotz mix, the power drop was so drastic that I tried more timing advance & gained 300 RPM. I think I might have seen similar HP gains W/15% nitro/methanol fuel. I will soon test the 15% Cool Power fuel @ more aggressive spark advance to see what additional HP/thrust gains there are to be had.

Switching a large 2 stroke from spark to glow ignition, even on gasosline (which might show even more significant loss over 15% nitro methanol fuel) WILL result in a signifiacntv loss of HP per fuel consumed.

In small 40 sized or even some 60 sized aircraft, EI is not viable due to the bulk of the systems. When a lage enough aiurframe is involved, the weight of the fuel required for a given flight time will off set the weight of the EI system.

IMO, .91 4-stroke is the displacement threshold for cost/benefit as glow Vs spark ignition. I'm not sure where that threshold lies for 2-strokes, but the large 180 Enya would definately be above that threshold I believe.


Something else you guys are not taking into cosideration is that the gasoline used in that clip was 100 octane. Where are you going to find reasonably priced 100 octane gasoline readily available to the average R/C pilot?




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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/8/2012 6:39 PM   
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Status: offline 		Maybe it's just me, but I don't find any problems with attaching and removing glow igniters when I crank engines. I never thought of it as an issue.

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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/8/2012 6:41 PM   
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quote:

Where are you going to find reasonably priced 100 octane gasoline readily available to the average R/C pilot?
Sunoco.  avgas, or racing fuel.

< Message edited by Sport_Pilot -- 5/9/2012 1:20 PM >

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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/8/2012 10:44 PM   
blw



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quote:

ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

Something else you guys are not taking into cosideration is that the gasoline used in that clip was 100 octane. Where are you going to find reasonably priced 100 octane gasoline readily available to the average R/C pilot?




Potsdam Municipal Airport-Damon Field is about 12 miles from your location, and they have avgas.

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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/8/2012 10:55 PM   
earlwb


 

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Status: offline 		Why would you need 100 octane gasoline? These engines aren't big enough to need hi-octane stuff.
I think the marine or boat gasoline from places located around marinas and such locales would be a better choice, as it is a lower octane gasoline.
But then if you live in the desert far from a lake, you could have problems.



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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/8/2012 11:42 PM   
controlliner



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Status: offline 		One thing to note is the oil they used, they said most two cycle oils they tried, destroyed many of their engines.


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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/8/2012 11:55 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

quote:

Where are you going to find reasonably priced 100 octane gasoline readily available to the average R/C pilot?[/quote]

Sunoco.  avgas, or racing fuel.


Yup, I go to Reno/Stead airport where the air races are held, drive out on the tarmac, pull up to the gas pump, use my card just like at the gas station, and fill up my jug.

Pretty simple if you ask me.

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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/9/2012 12:00 AM   
Jim Thomerson



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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/9/2012 12:40 AM   
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Status: offline 		diesel is great and a magneto ignition gets rid of a ton of crap too. i never had one of my old mag fired gas engines fail me. i will admit that they are easier to start with a starter,,,it can be hard to spin them fast enough to start by hand.

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RE: What is up with this new engine??? - 5/9/2012 1:48 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

IMO going from ignition to glow is a giant step backwards.



Interestingly enough, that's exactly what the model engine manufacturers said about going back to ignition from glow when glow engines were introduced to replace spark ignition engines.

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