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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/14/2013 5:14 PM   
doxilia



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Status: offline 		Dave,

that's great! Looking forward to seeing your progress.

I contacted Julio via PM regarding the possibility of a pipe deck.

David

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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/14/2013 5:38 PM   
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On the Motor length, I went back and looked at my OS laying on top of the OPS drawing,found out they are the same size.
The diff was in the motor mount. Its a pre drilled mount from OS just for that motor. I guess it has to be mounted like that to clear the pump and allow the fuel lines to hook up..
Also Take note of the Fuse top as I did not cut the angle in it for the pipe floor !! Its flat and will build upside down in a fuse jig. I will then add the pipe floor ..

Dave..

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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/14/2013 6:17 PM   
doxilia



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that's good news. It ought to at least reduce a tad the need for extending the nose much. From what I've seen the Italian and Austrian engines tend to be longer than the Japanese and American engines (Rossi and OPS in particular) so the short red head OPS (Speed) is unusual in that respect. They had a smaller 6 mm crank thread compared to the gold head OPS (Supers) which I believe are 8 mm or thereabouts.

I just measured my Super and it is exactly 4" from thrust washer to backplate. The backplate screws add another 1/8". The Speed by comparison is exactly 3.5" plus screws so there's a 1/2" difference there. A possibility might be to move the FW back that 1/2". The engine comes with a 1/2" rise fuse top header but even that seems too much in order to keep the header tucked in under the deck. A straight back with angled flange might be the best way to go as you suggested.

David.

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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/14/2013 6:39 PM   
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The OPS on the drawing is 3.5" and the OS is 3/16 longer so you were Right. I just set the motor on top of the drawing and they looked the same, The tape measure said different. Anyway its not going to pose a problem as I normally fit the nose ring to the
spinner back plate to close the gap. The header worked out on the plans and I don't see it being a problem either.
This is going to be a fun project as each step falls into place !!!

Dave..

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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/16/2013 5:42 PM   
doxilia



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looking forward to seeing further progress on yours.

I'm sending you a PM.

David

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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/24/2013 8:55 PM   
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Status: offline 		If You were building a Bootlegger and had your choice, which motor would you pick ??

Dave..

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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/24/2013 9:08 PM   
pitstop000



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Hey Dave, my vote goes to the Novarossi REX! Brute power, High Revs!

 

You can’t go wrong with that engine for the Bootlegger.




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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/24/2013 9:45 PM   
doxilia



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I'd have to agree with Paul - the Nova 61F. The Webra, OS and YS are all long strokes. The ST X61 TST I believe is a short stroke or might be square (but I think the former). Other interesting options for the Boot would be a Webra SS (no silver band), an OS VF, a YS SS (new production or old FR), OPS Speed or Super SPA and finally, the Rossi 61 FIRE (3 or 5 port). Of all these, I find the OPS to be the most beautiful although perhaps not the most muscle (the YS might hold that title).

Looking forward to further progress!

David

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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/24/2013 10:01 PM   
PatternPilot



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Status: offline 		OS or Rossi...

Never a YS

Ys = Why Start !

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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/24/2013 10:52 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: doxilia

Dave,

I'd have to agree with Paul - the Nova 61F. The Webra, OS and YS are all long strokes. The ST X61 TST I believe is a short stroke or might be square (but I think the former). Other interesting options for the Boot would be a Webra SS (no silver band), an OS VF, a YS SS (new production or old FR), OPS Speed or Super SPA and finally, the Rossi 61 FIRE (3 or 5 port). Of all these, I find the OPS to be the most beautiful although perhaps not the most muscle (the YS might hold that title).

Looking forward to further progress!

David

Thanks David !! and I have Most of those engines, but did not consider them because they were Short Stroke and wanted to go with a somthing that would turn 12x10 prop !! By the way, what is a Super SPA ??? Never heard of it

Dave..

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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/24/2013 11:39 PM   
ChiefK



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Status: offline 		Since I'd want to fly it at SPA events, I 'd have to pick a side-exhaust engine and just cover the pipe exit behind the canopy. Probably a Webra Speed or Rossi.

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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/25/2013 1:38 AM   
doxilia



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quote:

ORIGINAL: dphill2
Thanks David !! and I have Most of those engines, but did not consider them because they were Short Stroke and wanted to go with a somthing that would turn 12x10 prop !! By the way, what is a Super SPA ??? Never heard of it

Dave..

Ahh, in that case I'd go with the Webra LS or the YS 61R. I guess it comes down to personal preference. I like the Webra's for the Boot because of the various photos you posted (on the Trenton site) of Boot's with Webra's including Steve Helms' model. I guess there is something retro about it while the YS R/AR, OS RF and Webra LS are slightly more modern engines.

The OPS Super SPA is the gold head 5 port RE OPS. OPS designated engines by application type and configuration. For example the Super RCA SPA = Radio Control Airplane "Scarico Posteriore Entrata Anteriore" (in Italian) meaning Rear Exhaust Front Intake. RCA SLA = ... "Scarico Laterale Entrata Anteriore" or Side Exhaust Front Intake. By extension, RCB SPP would be Radio Control Boat "Scarico Posteriore Entrata Posteriore" or what we call the RIRE configuration.

The photo below shows the Super SPA (all OPS engines we are interested in are RCA for obvious reasons). A beautiful piece of machinery. The shaft and bearings feel like a top of the line Campagnolo Record road bike crank and bottom bracket. You give it a little push and it will free spin for the next hour...

David


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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/25/2013 2:26 AM   
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Status: offline 		Thanks Paul for the advice ! I'm sure you know a lot about that Rossi after having one in the Dirty Birdy. What prop do you run and do you use the stock Rossi Pipe ??

David , The picture is the only OPS that I own and it looks like the equivalent of the rear EX you posted !!

Dave..

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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/25/2013 4:44 AM   
doxilia



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Same engine, different crankcase, piston and sleeve (the sleeve might actually be the same). That would be the OPS Super RCA SLA rather than the SPA. Side Exhaust (SL) rather than rear exhaust (SP). Nice!

David

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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/27/2013 4:57 AM   
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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/27/2013 5:19 AM   
doxilia



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Status: offline 		Hey Dave,

don't suppose you could take a couple of pictures of the engine lined up where it goes along with the header and pipe? I'm curious to see how it all lines up. The NR actually appears to have a slightly shorter case than most Italian brutes. Maybe it's just the girth that gives it that perceived shorter look.

David

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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/27/2013 7:18 AM   
pitstop000



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Hey Dave, sorry for the late response,
 
Novarossi 61 REX’s  are presently  set up old school with 11/7 APC props, Macs old style #1260 10cc muffled pipe’s , K&B plugs. 20/23 Cool Power Heli fuel (full synthetic). They are turning in the 15K range all day long.
 
I have run the stock NR pipe but found that the old style Mac’s pipe was a better performer; I still have a dozen or so of these in my pipe box.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dphill2

Thanks Paul for the advice ! I'm sure you know a lot about that Rossi after having one in the Dirty Birdy. What prop do you run and do you use the stock Rossi Pipe ??

Dave..



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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/27/2013 8:46 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: doxilia

Hey Dave,

don't suppose you could take a couple of pictures of the engine lined up where it goes along with the header and pipe? I'm curious to see how it all lines up. The NR actually appears to have a slightly shorter case than most Italian brutes. Maybe it's just the girth that gives it that perceived shorter look.

David

David,
I hope this is what you were asking for !! All I can say is, you don't miss anything, The NR Ex is shorter than the OS and will need some trimming around the firewall to allow room for the header. I don't think it will be a problem though !!
Dave..

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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/27/2013 10:12 PM   
doxilia



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Status: offline 		Dave,

that's exactly what I was looking for! Thanks for your patience and willingness to accommodate all my "requests".

Well, that looks like a perfect fit if I may say so. No change needed to the FW position and a minor cutout in the top to pass the header. The flexible pipe coupler should allow the pipe to attain the desired upward angle. What's nice is that it looks like it works with a straight back header without any need to shim to an angle as we discussed earlier.

As far as me "not missing a thing", I sort of get paid for seeing the "little things", as it were, so it's just force of habit. Having possibly drawn up 20 or so classics in CAD in the last few years hasn't hurt either for that sort of thing. I'll take it as a compliment as annoying as it probably is to you and others... Apologies if it is.

I put the Boot drawings aside for a while until I receive the deck that Julio kindly offered me (thanks to you, I was able to get in touch with him via email). Once I receive it, I'll continue.

In the meantime, I'll live vicariously on your build.

David

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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/27/2013 10:25 PM   
dphill2


 

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I look forward to hearing from you and get a big laugh every time you ask about some little detail that you find in my pictures !!
The "Dont Miss anything" was a Compliment and hope I can help in some small way when you start your build !!

Dave..

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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/28/2013 12:18 AM   
dphill2


 

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Thanks for the info ! But I have a question, The 61NR is a long stroke motor 24mm stroke X23mm bore !! Same as my YS LS.
Why would you not set it up to run a larger prop @ less RPM ??? Just asking ...

Dave.

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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/28/2013 1:14 AM   
doxilia



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I'm sure that your build and this thread will be great info for when I get to put mine together. I'm sure the questions will flow again once I get to it...

I'll be darned! Those NR's are long strokes! 23x24. I wondered if their website had gotten it wrong and they had the geometry back to front. Probably not though.

Paul will have the definite answer on these engine but I'm thinking that even though it's a LS, the behaviour of Italian engines is very much like their Ferrari's and Lamborghini's - they design engines for high RPM. Their web site claims max power at 17K so propping it lightly like we used to with the old Rossi's and OPS's seems like the better way to go. I bet the torque curve on Japanese LS's like the RF is very different developing max power at significantly lower RPM's.

Either way, it would be interesting to see how the engine performs on a larger prop like a 12x8 stretching out the pipe some. Hopefully, that won't put the Mac's tail end way out in the breeze!

David

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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/29/2013 9:18 PM   
pitstop000



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Dave Let’s just say that it comes down to the liner/piston porting configuration more than the stroke. In regards to the REXR61 engine even though it’s a long stroke by 1mm which has it’s advantages, the liner is configured to slightly favor high rpm, not that it can’t or won’t run a larger prop at a lower rpm but you’ll be shelving some of its brute power.

 

As David stated NR states max power is a 17,000 with a redline of 20,000, so getting close to the 17K will result in the most overall power(HP/Torque). My test stand runs and prop thrust numbers confirmed this, so with an APC 11/7 we’re less than 2k from max hp in stock configuration.

 

In stock form I have to say that this engine is well mannered and easy to tune as all NovaRossi’s that I have worked with over the years. It’s not that aggressively configured by looking at its specs.

 

“I might have some errors if my stats but….”

exhaust duration: 150 degrees
transfers: 118 degrees
boosters: 118 degrees
crank intake:
opening after BDC: 38 degrees

closing after TDC: 57 degrees

 

There is a lot of room for more power out of this engine; not that’s its needed for Classic/Ballistic Pattern, but with some work 
I think we could make it turn an APC 11/8 to 16k, this fueled by another manufactures 10cc developing engine project.

 

quote:

ORIGINAL: dphill2

Paul,
Thanks for the info ! But I have a question, The 61NR is a long stroke motor 24mm stroke X23mm bore !! Same as my YS LS.
Why would you not set it up to run a larger prop @ less RPM ??? Just asking ...

Dave.

 


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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/29/2013 11:08 PM   
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Status: offline 		Thanks Paul,

I guess that may be why the Ex Port is lower in the cylinder than the other long rod motors !! The part I don't understand is the piston speed in a long rod will be higher than in a short rod turning the same RPM !!
You would think they would work out the torque and HP curve to come in @ a lower RPM because of the excess Piston speed..
Anyway I'm going OLD SCHOOL now where did I put them 11X7

Dave..

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RE: Bootlegger? - 1/29/2013 11:49 PM   
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Status: offline 		Here is the latest on my project ! I test fit all the formers and made sure the fiberglass top would work out !!
One thing I found out with the balsa fuse side being a stright line from the top of the firewall back to the tail, I had to cut a strip off the fiberglass piece to lower it so it would match the plans. The strip is 3/8" at the front and 5/8" @ the rear. Worked out fine ..

Dave...

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