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How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 5:34 AM   
jester_s1


 

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Status: offline 		I've been an instructor for about 3 years sporadically, and been flying for 7. But there's something I still haven't learned and that's how to handle guys who come along and have ideas in their heads about what they are going to do that simply aren't going to work. Many of us have met the type; the rules don't apply to them, they have extraordinary ability, their planes can't be crashed, etc. If you tell them the truth, they get offended or just ignore you. If you don't, they go and destroy a cheap airframe and never try the hobby again. I've dealt with two of them this week. One was a guy who wants to get into the parkflyer side of the hobby who showed up with a Redcat Cessna. I don't know much about the brand, but the plane was very light and looked cheap. He wanted to get started in the hobby but didn't want to put any thought or effort into it. The new plane wouldn't bind, then he emails me later and says that it was because his transmitter batteries were no good. He had put old, depleted AA's into an aircraft transmitter and just hoped it would work! At least he had enough sense not to go with his first instinct and fly the F16 he originally bought. He had showed up to our club field uninvited and tried to fly it, but couldn't figure out which channels the controls went on. He wound up Craigslisting that and buying this Cessna, then emailed me to ask if it was a good beginner plane. After he tried to dump the Cessna, he then emailed me again to ask what a good beginner plane was. The lazy bum won't do his own research, won't try to get his equipment in order, and had a very entitled attitude towards out club property and the help he wanted. The second guy was even better. He has a 1/4 acre yard surrounded by trees, and wants to fly a collective pitch helicopter in his backyard. Note- the backyard is not 1/4 acre. His entire property is! He wanted to trade a Chinese T-Rex 450 clone for a smaller CP heli thinking that the smaller bird wouldn't need so much space to hover in. I was very interested in the trade, but marveled at his detachment from reality.

I know it's a long post but I'm writing out some frustration here. I want to promote the hobby and represent aeromodelers well, but guys like this aren't viable to become successful RC pilots IMO. So what do you do with them? Smile and help them however they'll let you and be sympathetic when they fail or do you go ahead and tell them the truth and turn them off of getting help from anyone?

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 6:16 AM   
Campgems


 

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Status: offline 		Jester, it's really hard to teach someone who knows everything already, even harder if they don't but think they do..  Good instructors are hard to find, so save yourself for someone who wants to learrn and is willing to take some instruction and appriciates your help. Help those you can and discard those you can't.  Not every one is cut out for this hobby. 

Don.   

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 6:48 AM  1 votes
Chucksolo69


 

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Status: offline 		So if I am reading your post correctly, anyone who wants to buy a "cheap" foamie plane and get into the park flyer side of the hobby has no business entering it. Seems to me his ONLY mistake was showing up at your club "ninvited" I regularly fly with a bunch of guys who have been flying for years and have NEVER had instruction or been in a club and I can tell you, they fly pretty darn well. Not just "cheap" foamies either. Does that mean they enjoy the activity of flying their planes any less? Have you ever considered that there ARE people out there that don't NEED or WANT instruction. Some people don't want to compete or fly giant scale RC aircraft. They want to take their 3, 4, 5 and 6 channel aircraft and just have fun doing it without having to wait in line hours and hours to do so. There are those who are inept in any hobby, be it cars, trucks, helis or airplanes I give you that, but why talk down about those that don't necessarily see eye to eye with your beliefs? I fly foamies and got into the hobby about 3 months ago. I have crashed one plane on it's maiden flight and very slightly, hardly any damage done but a wrinkle in the airplane nose; no crashes since then in a lot of flights.  I thank my RealFligh 6 sim for that. Yes I am self taught, so what? Do I want to buddy box with an instructor, no, do I want to join a club, no, do I want to join the AMA? Yes, I probably will just like I am a member of the NRA because I like to shoot. I have read many posts that claim that you can show up to a club and everyone there will gladly help you with  a big smile on their face, and then you go and make the statement about this one person showing up "uninvited." That kind sir, is EXACTLY why I don't want to join a club..............I can do without the elitism in a hobby I really enjoy.

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 9:24 AM   
vasek



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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 10:13 AM  2 votes
JW0311


 

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I am self taught as well. I did however go to the local field once and was invited to take one of the instructors panes up on the buddy box. It was great. Everyone there was very nice and I've nothing bad to say about the experience. However, not having a great deal of money to spend on AMA and club dues, I decided to fly on my own property. I will say that if you go to your local field and ask for someone's help, like it sounds like these guys did, then it just seems like a mater of respect to listen to what they have to say. If you don't like what they have to say and want to strike out on your own then that's fine, but at least listen to what they have to say and don't waste their time. Just my thoughts.

 

James  



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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 10:28 AM   
Mr67Stang



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Status: offline 		Six some years ago, I was one of those guys to some degree. I even met with a very experience flyer who's frustration with me led to him stating something to the effect, 'Do what you want. It's your plane anyway.' I too was self taught with the aid of a simulator. I started with a Nexstar, not an F-16 though. I made mistakes and I paid for them, financially. It was an expensive way to learn the hobby and others would likely have given up. I now fly smal 100+ mph electrics, War Birds and 50cc 3D gassers. Oh, and that guy that got so frustrated with me... He's a very good freind of mine still today even though he has quit the hobby himself.

Point being... Be yourself and those that you "turn off" will be forgotten moment of your past. Those that stick it out and accept your style will become integral parts of your life and/or memories.

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 10:54 AM   
bogbeagle


 

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Status: online 		TBH, I can't see anything to get upset about.

For myself, if a prospective student doesn't want to play "on my terms", then we don't play at all. I don't have any problem with telling someone that I don't want to fly their plane for them; or teach them how to fly. Gotta learn how to say, "No" and walk away.

I must add that it is rare that I bother with instructing, nowadays ... 'cos I'm just not prepared to fly some bit of junk; since I'm responsible for the safe conduct of the flight.

Is that harsh of me?

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 3:26 PM   
Chucksolo69


 

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Status: offline 		I apologize if anyone thinks I was upset about the original post. I can assure you I am not. I just wanted to present the "other" side of the argument. Not all of us who aren't in clubs are "lazy bums." LOL.

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 4:08 PM  1 votes
Edwin


 

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Status: offline 		I've been teaching for 10 or 11 years as a club instructor. I replaced a guy in the club that taught for 30 years. I have a few planes I recommend (electric and glow), they take their pick. I teach to a program that covers basic flying, basic aerodynamics, basic aerobatics, emergency handling, maintenance, and repairing.

Some show up with a toy motor glider and want to be taught. I will give my honest assessment of his chances based on my years of observation and experience. I'll at least maiden it and trim it for him but most of the time all I can do is stand next to him for moral support. Passing the transmitter back and forth usually doesnt work that well. When those guys see how smooth things go on a buddy box, attitudes usually change. But you always have someone that wants to go it alone and teach themselves. Thats fine, but you cant do it at our field. Many years back a guy shows up, joins ama and the club, and says he can fly. Turns out he couldnt, lost it in the parking lot and damaged a car. Cost him a fair amount of money since he lied about being able to fly to the ama. He was actually going to teach himself.

I will teach on any trainer as long as it can buddy box to the standard radios. If someone insists on flying something I dont think is safe, I will refuse. It has to pass my pre-flight. If they refuse to listen to my instructions while they are flying, I wont teach them any more. I dont loose any sleep over it, he can go somewhere else. And not all people can be trained. I taught one guy for a year, hundreds of flights. His eye hand coordination and depth perception just wasnt there. I told him I would stay with him as long as he wanted, but he realized after a year, it just wasnt going to happen and quite. I've had a couple early retirees that happened to. Yes, it can be frustrating when half that start actually solo. Then out of that, half again actually stay with it beyond two years. Every now and then, you get someone that takes to building and learning with the passion I remember when I was younger. Warms your soul to see that.

I teach because I had to learn by myself, very long time and expensive. Nobody in the club I was in was interested in teaching. I ran into someone later I had not met before at the field and he helped. Two flights with him made all the difference to me. So I make sure when others want to learn, someone will be there to teach them.
Edwin

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 4:30 PM  1 votes
Chucksolo69


 

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Status: offline 		Edwin, great, sounds like you are one heck of an instructor. So, that being acknowledged, let me ask you this. A person gets a foamie plane, let's say a Hobbyzone Super Cub 3 channel trainer and a very good flight simulator like RealFlight 6. He practices on the sim, let's say for 3-4 weeks exclusively and then is able to fly and land safely on the sim. He then goes out and maiden's his Super Cub with no incidents and does ROG takeoffs and lands perfectly on the wheels. This person has now taken off from the ground and flown the airplane, flying is flying right? He then lands the plane safely with no damage or harm done to the plane or to anyone or to anything. Is there something fundamentally wrong with that? Are 3 channel trainers not "legitimate" aircraft even though they can actually "fly?" You see, this is what gets me, most club members and instructors I have read on these and other forums basically say this person is not flying legitimately. Nope, don't understand that at all. It is 2012 folks, flying RC airplanes is not rocket science, especially when computer simulators exist at the level they exist today. I can actually see a day when "instructors" are an anachronism. If a person wants to go to a club and learn from an instructor, I say excellent, great, by all means! Is it completely necessary today? I don't think so. All the guys I fly with are flying 4+ channel planes and doing aerobatics and handle their planes with great care and proficiency. None are club members and none have ever had instruction. Are they wrong? Nope don't think so.

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 4:58 PM  1 votes
Edwin


 

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Status: offline 		I acknowledge that simulators do a good job of training. I've soloed several students that had 20 to 40 hours on them, in less than 10 flights. The only help they needed was landing. In my opinion, the sims dont do a good enough job on landings. But its nothing that cant be solved with a few flights on the real thing, piece of cake. I teach landings by doing simulated landing approaches going lower until they're ready to land. Lining up with the runway takes a little practice. Those with sim time usually pick it up pretty fast. It would be great if everybody had about 20 hours sim time first. It would make my job a lot easier. I also acknowledge 3 channel flying can get you in the air. What you dont learn is aerodynamics when flying on your own. Thats the help I was given that turned everything around for me. And I would not agree that flying is flying. All of the students that had all this sim experience still needed multiple saves. Speculating in a perfect sim world is not my experience in real life. There are always outside variables that cause problems with the students. A big one down south here is sweat on the brow and nats, hate them little buggers. My electric students stand down when the winds get to 10 mph. Its not the plane thats the problem, the students just dont gain much from instruction. The glow guys stand down at about 18mph. But up until that point I'll make them fly cause the wind is always going to be there. At a park, you can land just about in any direction which is pretty nice. Not so at most clubs with runways. Most of my electrics dont have landing gear so I can belly in anyplace I want. There is a difference between airplane drivers, and pilots. And I dont have a problem with someone that wants to fly outlaw, go for it. I know clubs arent always the best way to go. I see the politics too. This is all just my opinion, I'm not trying to say its right and you're wrong.
Edwin

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 5:19 PM  1 votes
dignlivn


 

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JMO,


If they wont listen to your advice,then they think
they already know everything. Not much you can
do for those types. Sit back and watch. I tell newer
younger pilots "ask me how I know"

Bob

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 5:41 PM   
Chucksolo69


 

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Status: offline 		Fair enough, but I still say flying is flying. Those of us with some education, I have a BS in Information Systems, do understand aerodynamics. But I do take exception to the "flying outlaw" comment. Why is it "outlaw" to fly outside a club? I guess things are different here in SoCal. We don't need "permits" to fly like in New York. Oh well, I am not trying to de-legitimize clubs or instruction, I am just trying to point out that those of us who fly "outlaw" don't enjoy our exerience any less than you guys do.

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 6:01 PM  1 votes
ATVAlliance



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Status: offline 		While I personally dont think that a club or even an instructor is necessary for everyone...everyone sure could benefit from either, or both.

I say this because I started in this hobby (first time) about 15 years ago.  Went to the hobby store and bought a high wing .40 size nitro trainer with everything needed to fly in support equipment.  The guy at the store kept telling me that I shouldnt try to learn to fly by myself...even gave me a number to a local club to get help to learn to fly.  I told him I would just to shut him up...the whole time thinking..."how hard can it be...its just up/down/left/right...go slower/faster.  I left that store about 450-500 dollars poorer, and with confidence that this was something I could do on my own without help.

That plane lived exactly 2 flights (still not sure how I maidened it and landed...it wasnt pretty).  The 2nd flight it re-kitted itself and I pretty much gave up right there, out of embarrassment alone!

Over the years I had a few RC cars/trucks but nothing really of "hobby grade" and I just get bored with land vehicles pretty quick.  Or at least tired of having to repair them/tweak them all the time.  So I never really took to RC, but always wished I had of listened to the guy at the hobby store on that airplane, because as far back as I can remember I had always wanted to fly RC planes and helis.

So...3 years ago I decided to try it again.  This time I sought out a club and joined it.  While our club doesnt really have an official "instructor" I was still able to be buddy boxed 2 or 3 times before I solo'd.  Really, the buddy boxing didnt do a whole lot for me because I had already been playing around on a SIM for a few weeks and had also bought one of those Phoenix Firebird pusher prop v tail airplanes and learned to fly in a field by my house by myself.  I wanted to at least know somewhat of what I was doing before I went to the club field.

What really helped me more than anything was just going to the club and watching all of the veteran pilots.  Asking a lot of questions regarding the things that I didnt understand and just took in everything I could.  I probably went to the field at least 3 or 4, maybe 5 times before I ever flew the first plane!  But, I learned something every trip made...and I continued to add to my knowledge by reading forums like RCU here online.  I still learn something new almost daily...I dont think the learning ever stops in this hobby.

So...while instructors and clubs arent necessary for all...it will definitely be a benefit to be part of one.  That is if you feel you fit in with the others in said club.  If the club I joined was full of a bunch of  buttholes, then I wouldnt have stuck around to learn what I learned, and be enjoying this great hobby today...flying anything from a small micro J3 Cub to a 65cc gas Yak54, not to mention a myriad of CP helicopters.  All in less than 3 years time.  If only I had listened to the guy at the hobby store, I would be 15 years into the hobby and my skills would be wayyyyyyyyy more advanced than they are now.  But, cant turn back time...just enjoy the present and look forward to the future.

At the end of the day, if you are flying safely and having fun during the process...AND not crashing every model you buy, you are doing something right.



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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 7:00 PM   
Charlie P.



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Status: offline 		About all you can do is offer counsel and advice, help them if they ask or help them pick up the pieces if they don't.  Unless it's an outright safety viloation and then a slap upside the head is in order. 

Our club has dues as well as AMA and IMAA membership requirements - AMA even for guests - which serve to bring only the more committed to our field.  We do get visitors who see us flying and stop by - sometimes intending to fly because the local hobby shop had been in the practice of mentioning models could be flown at our field (leaving out such details as "private property" and membership requirements, dues, etc.)  We partially solved that by arranging to put up a bulletin board in the LHS with club info.

It's not a new problem.  Even before ARFs and fomies the occasional garage sale P-51 would show up.  Worse are the kit built.  I know what it's like to build a model and take home a bag of balsa shards.  Both control line and R/C. 

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 8:51 PM  1 votes
eddieC



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I find a demeaning chuckle works wonders!       

I get this type of individual a lot in my business, and one learns to spot them early. A firm hand is needed, and explain in sequence the path they are on. Unfortunately, most of them don't listen, will argue, etc.  The few that have an open mind and are respectful will do well.

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 9:47 PM   
lpjamb


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chucksolo69

Fair enough, but I still say flying is flying. Those of us with some education, I have a BS in Information Systems, do understand aerodynamics. But I do take exception to the "flying outlaw" comment. Why is it "outlaw" to fly outside a club? I guess things are different here in SoCal. We don't need "permits" to fly like in New York. Oh well, I am not trying to de-legitimize clubs or instruction, I am just trying to point out that those of us who fly "outlaw" don't enjoy our exerience any less than you guys do.


Quick question did you got your BS in Information Systems by yourself? Or someone taught you what you now know?




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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 9:49 PM   
Chucksolo69


 

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Status: offline 		Excellent post ATV. Thanks for the great story. Like I said before, I don't see anything wrong with joining a club or asking help from an instructor, if that's the way you want to go. Anyway, you basically summed up in a neat package what I was trying to say. Thanks.

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 9:55 PM  1 votes
Chucksolo69


 

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Status: offline 		Irrelevent, besides, by the time I got my BS, I had already been a self taught network admin, DBA and business manager for 10 years starting back in 1984! I don't understand why so many of you guys think it is impossible to teach yourself to fly? Getting a BS degree is infinately harder to do than fly RC aircraft. It's time people realized that for some people, it may be rocket science, for others..............like me................not so much. To me it's all about having fun flying...that's it.

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 10:02 PM   
SeamusG



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Status: offline 		The biggest plus (IMHO) with club flying / training is that you can learn from others (good, bad or ugly) experiences. If that saves a plane or two - good. If that saves your finger - great. If that saves someone else's finger (especially a small fry) - fantastic.

A couple of observations (not mine - just sharing):

On RC flying - in your 2nd year you are likely to crash everything you bring to the field.

On driving a class A vehicle - the most dangerous drivers are those in their 2nd year 'cause they think they have learned everything there is to know about driving.

On driving a race car - you exceed your limitations and it's gonna leave a mark - maybe just $$ but could be a lot more personal.

Good flying ...


BTW chuck - I used to teach the DBA, admin, technical classes that you figured that you didn't need.  My customers wanted to insure success and avoid failure because the success of their companies depended on it. Risk, reward.




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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 10:11 PM   
levram1


 

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Status: offline 		Hey lpjamb.  Don't knock it!!!  I got my cert. in the  bottom of a Cracker Jack box.  

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 10:33 PM   
Edwin


 

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Status: offline 		Nobody is saying its impossible to learn by yourself. Many of us have done it. And you are using yourself as a reference point. You may be above average when it comes to flying, some people are gifted and I admire those types. But the average person is what I see and they are by no means gifted. But when I'm done with them, and as long as they practice, they are proficient to the point those of use standing around dont worry about a crash in the pitts.

Our field is on City of Austin park land and has to meet insurance requirements which the AMA provides. No choice in that. If safety becomes an issue, it could easily shut us down.

As for outlaw pilot, that phrase has been around since the early 90's, maybe longer. Not ment as a derogatory remark. Lots of us flew outlaw when there were no fields for us to fly at. We were kicked out of more than a few parks. Later became a term of endearment for those of us younger guys that did what we wanted where we wanted.

Please dont think this is an us versus you thing. Just different ways of learning to fly. It was very expensive for me to learn on my own, and I was by no means gifted.
Edwin

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 10:37 PM   
lopflyers


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chucksolo69

Irrelevent, besides, by the time I got my BS, I had already been a self taught network admin, DBA and business manager for 10 years starting back in 1984! I don't understand why so many of you guys think it is impossible to teach yourself to fly? Getting a BS degree is infinately harder to do than fly RC aircraft. It's time people realized that for some people, it may be rocket science, for others..............like me................not so much. To me it's all about having fun flying...that's it.


If you have a BS you should know that you get better and faster learning if someone teaches you than by do it yourself method.
Did you learn to drive by yourself? Would you get in an commercial jet liner with a self taught pilot?
Im not saying it can't be done, I'm saying is easier, cheaper and faster to get club instruction.



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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 10:52 PM  1 votes
do335a


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chucksolo69

I don't understand why so many of you guys think it is impossible to teach yourself to fly? 


The reason is quite simple. It is impossible to teach yourself anything. You may learn by yourself, but you don't teach yourself.

In order to teach, it is necessay that the teacher know more than the student and it's impossible when you are the student to know more than you know. The teacher is way ahead of you and already knows what you are trying to learn.

As for me, being the ignoramous that I was,I actually attended school and even paid tuition. Never did know everything on my own and realized that there were a lot of much smarter people than me who had valuable info to pass on and brind to my atttention, as well as the ability to explain and present things in different ways to help my learning.

You can't do any of that for yourself. You are simply a learner, not a teacher. Self-taught does not exist.

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/21/2012 11:03 PM   
SeamusG



Posts: 3919
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From: Arvada, CO, USA
Status: offline 		Em, BS - MS - PhD - doesn't that mean bull sh**, more sh** and piled higher and deeper ...

I share this with the utmost respect for our academics ...


do335a - nicely stated.


< Message edited by JohnGilmore -- 6/22/2012 12:08 AM >

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