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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 2:48 PM

tfarmer96

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jester_s1

I've been an instructor for about 3 years sporadically, and been flying for 7. But there's something I still haven't learned and that's how to handle guys who come along and have ideas in their heads about what they are going to do that simply aren't going to work. Many of us have met the type; the rules don't apply to them, they have extraordinary ability, their planes can't be crashed, etc. If you tell them the truth, they get offended or just ignore you. If you don't, they go and destroy a cheap airframe and never try the hobby again. I've dealt with two of them this week. One was a guy who wants to get into the parkflyer side of the hobby who showed up with a Redcat Cessna. I don't know much about the brand, but the plane was very light and looked cheap. He wanted to get started in the hobby but didn't want to put any thought or effort into it. The new plane wouldn't bind, then he emails me later and says that it was because his transmitter batteries were no good. He had put old, depleted AA's into an aircraft transmitter and just hoped it would work! At least he had enough sense not to go with his first instinct and fly the F16 he originally bought. He had showed up to our club field uninvited and tried to fly it, but couldn't figure out which channels the controls went on. He wound up Craigslisting that and buying this Cessna, then emailed me to ask if it was a good beginner plane. After he tried to dump the Cessna, he then emailed me again to ask what a good beginner plane was. The lazy bum won't do his own research, won't try to get his equipment in order, and had a very entitled attitude towards out club property and the help he wanted. The second guy was even better. He has a 1/4 acre yard surrounded by trees, and wants to fly a collective pitch helicopter in his backyard. Note- the backyard is not 1/4 acre. His entire property is! He wanted to trade a Chinese T-Rex 450 clone for a smaller CP heli thinking that the smaller bird wouldn't need so much space to hover in. I was very interested in the trade, but marveled at his detachment from reality.

I know it's a long post but I'm writing out some frustration here. I want to promote the hobby and represent aeromodelers well, but guys like this aren't viable to become successful RC pilots IMO. So what do you do with them? Smile and help them however they'll let you and be sympathetic when they fail or do you go ahead and tell them the truth and turn them off of getting help from anyone?

I think we all feel you pain on this one. The bottom line is you cant help some people. The real problem our hobby is facing IMHO is the I want it now and don’t want to do anything to get it. Many may think what I am about to say is funny but it’s true. What we do is an acquired skill with analytical thinking. Most people just dont want to invest the time and truely learn. Good luck with training your a better person than I. I dont suffer fools well.

How ever when you do get that one guy who gets it and you turn around and next thing you know they are asking about how do i do ______ you fill in the blank. That is pure GOLD!

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 3:10 PM

llindsey1965

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you are right flying is flying , but flying with out AMA insurance is wrong , espically flying at schools parks and around homes , i have been a member of AMA for 20 years if you cant afford 58 dollars a year then you are in the wrong hobby , and at sanctioned fields you must have AMA to fly , i dont care what someone is flying i support that not laugh at our club we welcome all and we will help all , no matter what you fly it is still model aircraft , i remember my first aircraft a a kadet 3 channel with os engine , i had a lot of good help a good and patient instructor i could not wait to get the flights in i remember my first solo so many great memories, and the greatest hobby around !!!!!!! now a simulator is great for the fundementials but there are other considerations like cg cross winds obstacles at the field , you cant just push the reset button and then their is building another part of the hobby that has seemed to have just about left anyway just my opinion !!!!

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 3:28 PM

Chucksolo69

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I guess you are right in that we have a club of sorts. And I just sent my AMA payment this AM. Well, we don't fly our big stuff 40 + inch wing spans in parks or near schools; most of us will fly our UM planes, ala the Champ, etc in baseball fields and such; we never fly when they are occupied though. We have permission to fly in an undeveloped industrial park that has been graded but there are no buildings on it now or anytime in the near future. I believe the owner is waiting for better economic times. The industrial park is about 6 or 7 football fields big and is just an excellent place to fly. Where we fly is in a cul-de-sac and fortunately the wind is just right and comes in from in front of the cul-de-sac. We use the street that leads to the dead end as our runway and follow strict rules about takeoffs and landings, etc. Right now we have about 5 guys who fly there, mostly on weekends. I will maiden my first 6 channel aircraft this weekend. It is a Flyzone Cessna 182 Skylane Select Scale. I'm gonna need all the advice I can get from my flying buddies. I have been practicing with a Cessna 182 on my RealFlight sim for a couple of weeks now. I think I can handle my new plane. Wish me luck. This thread has been fun. So many opinions and a good cross section of participants from newbies to seasoned instructors. Just great.

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 3:34 PM

llindsey1965

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the main thing is fly safe and enjoy , i welcome you to this hobby , and hope you and your friends have many hours of enjoyment godspeed , you will enjoy your cessena they are great smooth fliers , you dont need luck sounds like you have the confidence you need to fly your new 6 channel , always remember check before every flight , so many times i have checked a plane before a flight and found a problem that could have cost me a plane , again welcome have fun and burn lots of holes in the sky

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 3:47 PM

sylvie369

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I'm a newbie myself in R/C, but I've been building and flying rockets and helping others learn to do so for a couple of decades now, and I've seen the same kind of thing: people who want to do the big exciting thing right away, without taking time to learn the ropes first. This thread seems to have two entirely separate discussions going on: the "do you need a club/instructor to learn to fly?" one and the original "what do you do about people who believe they can just start right in with the fancy, fast, flashy aircraft?" issue. I'll stick with the original issue.

In a number of different areas (R/C, rockets, guitars, telescopes, cameras) I've seen the "more money than sense" phenomenon. It never ceases to amaze me. More amazingly, it seems to co-exist with the "what is the cheapest possible way to participate in this hobby?" phenomenon. You'd think they were contradictory, but nope, there they are, both at once. I think what happens is that people who COULD afford perfectly decent beginner level equipment instead spend the same amount of money on cheap versions of the fancy, advanced level stuff that advertises features they have no idea how to use even if it did work properly.

Sometimes I think my childhood poverty was a big advantage in the long run. I fell for some of the cheap stuff, and was of course disappointed, and I think figured out by my mid-20s that in terms of my satisfaction, a solid piece of no-frills equipment beats a cheap knock-off of the fancy stuff every single time. Last year I spent a LOT of money to go to a guitar camp in hopes of finally moving past just strumming the thing to doing some fancy fingerstyle blues. There were 12 guys at the camp, and my $300 guitar (a 24 year old Seagull) was easily the cheapest one there. No-one else had a guitar that cost less than $1000, and most of them were about $2000-$2500. But at least half of those guys knew far less than I do about guitar playing. That's fine, of course - everyone is a beginner at some point - but how in the world do you spend $2500 on a guitar when all you can do is strum chords in the first position? I would have never dreamed of doing anything like that.

The same thing happens over and over again in astronomy. People spend hundreds of dollars on telescopes when they would get much more out of a $120 pair of binoculars and a star chart (I'm completely guilty in this realm - as a kid, I poured money into big, cheap, useless telescopes, and never did learn the sky as I should have).

In rocketry, the silliest version of the phenomenon is people getting all excited about finding free cardboard tubes that they want to turn into high power rockets. Really? You're going to fly $75 motors with $80 altimeters and you can't spring for $15 for a properly-sized body tube from a rocket parts manufacturer?

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 4:00 PM

llindsey1965

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good post sylvie369 , you are correct , i fly all large planes all gassers but one time i was green and nknew nothing at all about this hobby , i too have learned that cheap knockoffs are not the answer but we all have been down that road , as will the newbies of today but it is still a hobby meant to be enjoyed drama free just for having fun i wouldnt put a 30 dollar receciever in a 3000 airplane but i have learned and so will they , we dont want to sound like elitest that would ruin this hobby , just remember everyone enjoys the hobby different , but their own way , anyway lets all just enjoy this wonderful hobby!!!!

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 4:26 PM

Chucksolo69

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Sylvie, you are dead on man. I have been playing guitar now for over 3 decades and still play a $500.00 Fender Telecaster on stage. I have acquaintences who can't play but have $3000.00 Paul Reed Smith guitars that hang on their wall. There will always be those that, like you say, have more money than sense. All we can do is sit back and enjoy this hobby for all it is worth.

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 4:39 PM

jester_s1

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Strategy01- You must be a customer at Roy's hobby! That's the nicest, best stocked, best laid out shop in the Metroplex with the worst guys behind the counter. I'm sure someone who goes in there gets some service because they are still in business, but I don't know who it is!

sylvie369- Great observation! Cheap people would rather buy fancy junk than simple quality. The same people don't want to learn anything before flying solo, don't want to pay club fees or AMA, and don't want to practice.

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 4:53 PM

raptureboy

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Wow the thread of longggggg replies.

If someone does not want my help I'm glad to oblige. No time for know it alls, and all are invited to our club, but we have rules for your, and our safety and if you choose to break them then your out. We offer free learn to fly days and invite other clubs to join us for free funflys. Lots of good reasons to join a club.

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 5:01 PM

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This reminds me of a Full scale pilot that showed up at our field an number of years ago with a plane, when asked if he could fly, he replied of course, I can fly full scale. He was told flying RC is not like full scale and He should get some training before attempting to fly by himself, He ignored our advice and went ahead and took off barely avoiding crashing on take off, after flying out of control for a few minutes he attempted to land after the 3 failed attempts I aproached him and asked him if he wanted me to help him get the plane on the ground safely in which he told me to mind my own business, so I went back and sat down to watch, 3 minutes later he totaled the plane right in the middle of the runway. He picked up the pieces cussing under his breath and left and never saw him again. All this could have been avoided if he would have accepted help but he was to proud since he was a full scale pilot and he was not about to ask for help to fly these toy airplanes.

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 5:05 PM

llindsey1965

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waco we all have had them like that , they seem to forget that when the plane is coming toward them controls are backwards , not like sitting in the hot seat , you did all you could , all to do was to sit and watch the show very close and hope no one gets hurt

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 5:41 PM

rgburrill

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chucksolo69

Fair enough, but I still say flying is flying. Those of us with some education, I have a BS in Information Systems, do understand aerodynamics. But I do take exception to the "flying outlaw" comment. Why is it "outlaw" to fly outside a club? I guess things are different here in SoCal. We don't need "permits" to fly like in New York. Oh well, I am not trying to de-legitimize clubs or instruction, I am just trying to point out that those of us who fly "outlaw" don't enjoy our exerience any less than you guys do.

Flying outlaw is usually just an expression for flying at other than an AMA club - I don't take it as negative probably because I do both. The main concern with the "outlaws" is if they are violating the AMA safety rules. Things like frequency control and range form other flying fields. Another safety rule that outlaws, and those who teach themselves, typically don't follow is to always keep your plane on one side of the runway. Like some of the seemingly strange Jewish food laws, these rules have a reason that may not always be evident. Being an NRA member you certainly must realize that some seemingly silly safety rules can get you killed if you don't follow them and have an accident.

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 5:42 PM

RCER88

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I learned R/C back in the eighties. There was no such thing as "buddy boxes" or ARF's off the shelf to speak of. I built a trainer a Pilot 25H. I did not have an engine yet and got in touch with a high school friend that I flew control line with back in school. He was now heavy in R/C and a member of a club. He sold me a small 3 channel Pilot Citabria for $100.00 it had a motor a small enya 09. But no servos. We went to the Toledo Show and I bought a brand new radio a 4 channel Futaba and extra receiver and servos. The same day I got my AMA. He helped me setup the Citabria and off to the field we went. I learned and soloed going out every evening after 7 days on the Citabria. We still fly together to this day. He taught me by passing the TX back and forth. To this day when I start flying a new plane I will spend an entire tank of fuel after the maiden just shooting approaches and touch and goes. I seldom botch a landing now. But he taught me how to safely do this hobby. I fly everything from small electric foamies to 50cc gas.

I also do instruction and now will only work with people that will listen to what I have to say. If they try to argue with me. I just say "Do it your way. When you smash that plane to bits. Don't cry to me." And walk away with no regrets. Many times when I walk away and give them a few minutes to think they change their mind. Some are hopeless but they never stay anyway. Some I pass on to another instructor as previously stated in another post some people just get along better with different people. I do my best to get along with everybody but that does not always happen.

Safety is always the primary concern. We have tons of fun but we have to do it safely.

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 6:01 PM

llindsey1965

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i built my first plane sig kadet , red and black only 3 channels throttle , elevator and rudder and yes we had to pass the tx back and fourth , he taught me to fly at what he called 1 mistake high i laugh at it today , but you are so right you cant help someone if they dont want the help and safety is the main concern a safe day at the flying field is a fun field day , have fun be safe and always obey all safety rules they are there for our protection and safety tothe public

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 6:22 PM

qwerty3

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As far as the Christian thing to do with the possible airplane / heli swap: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" - even if the other person is a jerk. There's no 'exception clause', so it's sometimes not easy to do.
-
Keep in mind, though, that small heli crashes are not all that destructive (as compared to a high-speed EDF crash), and if the heli parts are available, can be quite easily repaired (normally).

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 7:12 PM

Thomas Pham

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ATVAlliance

if you are flying safely and having fun during the process...AND not crashing every model you buy, you are doing something right.

Well said ATV

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 9:06 PM

acdii

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I'm self taught, learned on a Sim and an Ultra Micro T-28, then maidened a solo's an Apprentice. I have a friend who helps coach me at times, but now with about a year of flying, I can take my Kadet, do touch and goes and land like a big bird upwind and down wind clock wise and counter clock wise.

Do I know everything, heck no, so I ask. I haven't joined a club since I have no need to, I fly at my friends place with a couple other guys, and his neighbor sometimes flies from his house down the road and encroaches in our airspace and we chase him off with our planes. It's a hoot, and something you wouldn't get from a club.

One thing that helped me is not having to worry about other people getting in the way, or me getting in their way, or doing something stupid because I didn't know the rules or something along those lines. However, not everyone has a 5 acre land out in the country to crash and learn in, so going to a club is the BEST thing for them, and I support that fully.

The difference between me, and the guys the OP posted about is I ask questions before I sink any money into it. Want proof, look at some of my posts regarding certain types of planes. I want to make sure that what I am going to buy is something that I can fly. I have a Blade SR still sitting in a box because I thought I could eventually learn to fly it, and after flying a Blade SR 120, I gave it a whirl, and promptly put it into a wall, so back in the box it went after I repaired it, and haven't touched it since.

Now time warp into the past, back in the 80's when I thought I knew it all, I was the guy the OP talked about, and I quickly learned that I didn't know anything when it came to RC flying. I also shelved it for a long time, mainly because I couldn't afford it, but now that I can, I make sure I wont wreck it, or hurt my self or others.

So in a jist, some people can learn this on their own with patience and the right kind of practice, and time, but if you want to get right into it, no better way than to join a club.

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 10:38 PM

llindsey1965

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the club is important , but do you have AMA insurance? if not you should it is only 58 dollarsa year , and the best piece of mind you can ever have been a member for 20 years anyway just my thoughts !!

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 10:39 PM

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There will always be a group of people that have an unwillingness to listen to reason and feel that they have the requisite knowledge to be successful. I learned to fly without an instructor at a local sports field with a plastic/foam electric plane. I was too intimidated to start at the local club. As I learned, crashed, fixed, learned some more and ultimately had success, I joined said club and eventually became a club instructor. I found students who were very receptive to instruction, had natural ability and learned quickly. I had students who were were receptive to instruction but couldn't grasp things conceptually and had great difficulty learning. I had students who were stubborn, took instruction poorly and never had success. I've NEVER had a student who was stubborn and ultimately experienced success.

Why? Here's my hypothesis: those that are stubborn generally find everything else to blame but themselves. "I was rushed." "It was too windy." "I was distracted". "There must have been something wrong with the plane." People like this never change their approach because they are incapable of seeing fault in themselves.

When I encounter people like this, this is how it usually goes. "OK. Do it your way. But, I have two things to say. One, when you're ready for help, let me know. Two, if you do anything to risk the safety of anyone at this flying site or any of the property on this flying site, I'll be the first to help you load you car while asking you to leave..."

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 11:03 PM

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The problem for me is that im a teen who wants to be able to fly without having to pay club dues and without having to get my dad to drive me to flying fields. I got a slow stick for a trade for my rc truck. I am self-taught (i havent flown much yet but i can do it all on the sim so far) so i have been learning to fly in a ditch. So far i have been doing good, the ditch is just big enough for my SS and i plan on building a mini slow stick from scratch so i will be able to fly better in my given environment. I also heard that the local school has plenty of flying space. I really would prefer to learn properly, but i dont want to spend a lot of money for having to drive to a field (the ditch is one house down from me). I originally wanted to sell the evader for getting a Ember 2 but i got a good trade for the SS with one tx, two recievers, two brushless motors, and quite a few mini servos. I feel like my case for being self-taught is different than most others because im sure that they can pay for the clubs and that it must be easier to access the fields for them.

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 11:16 PM

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When the guys with the flawed plans come out to fly, I find a trash barrel to hide behind. I've been caught a few times out in the open by someone's out of control plane, it's a naked feeling. The steel garbage barrels are best, the plastic ones will do in a pinch. Sitting in the car is out of the question, too much glass, and you're a sitting duck. Even a 4x4 post is better than nothing, but the fuselage can still get past it. A picnic table is deceiving, it looks like a lot of wood from the top, but there's too many gaps when viewed from the side. If they come out with foamies or a park flyer it's not quite as bad as the old 40 size trainers used to be.

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 11:26 PM

levram1

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Fly in a ditch? ****?

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 11:31 PM

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Link,
Stay with it. In time a job will come along (mowing lawns is what I did) and things progress. But take a look at AMA, they have junior rates that are sometimes free. Lots of clubs also have junior rates, ours is $20 a year and you get all the benefits of instruction. Sometimes guys have been known to take a youngster under his wing and loan or give them old equipment. It happens. Clubs can be a real benefit in that respect. Cant help you on transportation though.
Edwin

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/22/2012 11:56 PM

RCER88

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Link119

The problem for me is that im a teen who wants to be able to fly without having to pay club dues and without having to get my dad to drive me to flying fields. I got a slow stick for a trade for my rc truck. I am self-taught (i havent flown much yet but i can do it all on the sim so far) so i have been learning to fly in a ditch. So far i have been doing good, the ditch is just big enough for my SS and i plan on building a mini slow stick from scratch so i will be able to fly better in my given environment. I also heard that the local school has plenty of flying space. I really would prefer to learn properly, but i dont want to spend a lot of money for having to drive to a field (the ditch is one house down from me). I originally wanted to sell the evader for getting a Ember 2 but i got a good trade for the SS with one tx, two recievers, two brushless motors, and quite a few mini servos. I feel like my case for being self-taught is different than most others because im sure that they can pay for the clubs and that it must be easier to access the fields for them.

Let me see when I was flying U-control in my teens we would ride bicycles to the place we flew at. It was only two miles one way. I would carry my plane, fuel, starting battery and tools. But that was back in the 70's. We flew behind the post office in their parking lot. Surrounded by businesses it was a great place. We had permission from the postmaster and he would sit at the back of his building and watch.

Get a bicycle or a moped. You can ride that and go to a place to fly. A back pack can carry most of your gear and make a small rack either on the front or the back to put your plane. When I flew the plastic cox planes with rubber band wings I could put them in the top of the back pack. It all depends on how much you want something. My dad always told me "If there is a will there is a way. Figure it out."

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RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans? - 6/23/2012 1:47 AM

llindsey1965

Posts: 280
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Joined: 12/24/2010
Last Login: 6/16/2013
From: AugustaGA, USA
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try to get your dad interested , might surprise you he may enjoy this hobby too , worth a try we have father and sons and daughters flying at our field just a thought we have 135 members and growing and i think that is the reason we are family oriented

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