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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/6/2012 1:47 PM   
comanche260c


 

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Status: offline 		No but I sure wish i did save them.  just cant get over the price they wanted to box it.It needed 2 boxes plus  bubble wrap. they wanted  like 28  bucks  for a box if i buy it, plus  bubble  wrap.Doesnt that sound  like alot? Im kinda pissed noew I spent that much hope this all pays off

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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/6/2012 1:51 PM   
comanche260c


 

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Status: offline 		No but I sure wish i did save them.  just cant get over the price they wanted to box it.It needed 2 boxes plus  bubble wrap. they wanted  like 28  bucks  for a box if i buy it, plus  bubble  wrap.Doesnt that sound  like alot? Im kinda pissed noew I spent that much hope this all pays off

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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/6/2012 2:03 PM   
comanche260c


 

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Status: offline 		ok thats enough  no more response its getting worn out. I amnot going to respond anymore, just waiting on decision .Bye

< Message edited by comanche260c -- 7/6/2012 3:56 PM >

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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/6/2012 2:13 PM   
hhal7


 

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Status: offline 		Many of Hostetler's plans for his 25% and larger plans simply use a rubber ban to hold the 2 wing halves against the fuselage. The wing struts provide the redundant system to keep the wings from moving outboard. A good experiment would be to see how much force would be needed to move the wing outboard enough to disengage the anti-rotational pins while the struts are properly connected.

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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/6/2012 3:38 PM   
Live Wire


 

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Status: offline 		The best thing for you to do is set on your hands and waite for a response from HH. The rope is getting shorter and the hole deeper every time you post .

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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/6/2012 4:15 PM   
Charlie P.



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quote:

ORIGINAL: comanche260c

IT WASNT A ARF   it was a bind and fly????  BNF  already built by them



Scary a 26cc BNF is even available. 

Ultimately it is the pilot that is responsible.  That's why you pre-flight every model, every time.  Overtighten a Nylon bolt just once and the head is weakened.

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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/6/2012 4:58 PM   
raptureboy


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: comanche260c

ok thats enough  no more response its getting worn out. I amnot going to respond anymore, just waiting on decision .Bye




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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/6/2012 5:34 PM   
GaryA


 

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Status: offline 		Jeeez!

Now everyone is going home... no more to talk about this topic until the Horizon court of inspections are concluded.

Once the jury is out and has finished their deliberation, we will be able to see/hear their results and decision.

Darn, I was just starting to get a good laugh out of this!!

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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/6/2012 5:59 PM   
jquid



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taz_Hobbies


quote:

ORIGINAL: comanche260c

by saying redundancy I  was refering to the amount of thread in the bolt.   I was hoping in the design there would be   much more thread  to catch the wing bolt. I would of like to see like  1/2 inch or more to catch that threaded bolt . If I saw that amount in the wing bolt  this would of never happened. Thank You   you  hit the nail on the head , this is my argument and the weak point.  And this is soely the week ling and why I am holding them responsible because there was so little thread in the  wing nut allowing tremendous pressure on that soft nylon bolt. yippie I  oh you hit  the nail on the head and you are pointing at  my argument


WHAT pressure on the wing bolt?
Doesn't that plane have a wing tube?




Looking at the manual @ Horizon, yes there is a wing tube, and wing struts. So how does this nylon get stripped? The forces acting on the wings are not outward to pull that wing off and the nylon and the struts should be more than enough to keep it in place. The key here is the first part of the thread where he states the nylon was stripped. It was most likely overtightened. The nylon bolt sits flush in this plane against the fuse as far as I can tell. No stresses there. The problem you run into with wing bolts is when they bold down wings, and there is a space between the wing and the hold down block. Almost all kits have a 1/4 space between the block and the surface of the wing. I always build it up so it sits flush. That space allows you to tighten the bolt, and the airspace in there is not gripping any threads. This is a weak point and allows the bolt to move, and stretch when tightened. In this case, it appears the wing sits flush with the fuse, the bolt sits flush so there is no gap to cause weakness. So it must have been overtightened to strip it. And the bolts just hold the wing tight to the side of the fuse, not even as a hold down bolt. I would have to say they are not responsible, other than stating how tight to make the bolts in the manual, and I did not see anything that said how tight, other than "Make sure they are secure". It looks like you can send them the parts for inspection, so maybe do that and see what they say is the cause. Maybe there is a bad lot of nylon or something.

Just my .02.

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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/6/2012 6:26 PM   
wyo69cowboy



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taz_Hobbies


quote:

ORIGINAL: comanche260c

see you tomorrow  I ate all the  pop corn   chips and  all the dip. no more soda either. Love ya all EDDIE


Again, what pressure on the wing bolts?
That plane NOT only has a wing tube that supports the flight loads, it also has wing struts.

Any excessive pressure on those wing bolts was applied by the guy who assembles her. I have sat and watched a 128'' Span / 150cc Extra 300 do things in the air that defy the laws of physics. Two (2) 1/4 x 20 NYLON wing bolts hold eash wing panel in place.... The Wing tube/spar carries the load. The wing bolts just hold the wing to the fuse, just about zero lateral load.


DING DING DING! The wingtube supports the load, the struts assist that, as well as keeping the wing from moving outboard from lateral g forces, and there are anti rotation dowel pins to keep the wing from rotating. The nylon wingbolt serves to keep the wings tight to the fuse. If, as the OP states, no real g forces were applied, even without the wingbolts, the wings likely wouldn't have moved outboard far enough to let the anti rotation dowels out of their holes, thus allowing the wing to move and cause the crash, as claimed.

Also, my 42% Pilot Edge has 6 nylon wingbolts and a big ol' carbon tube; it's held up to multiple knife edge spins and pop tops so far with no nylon wingbolt problems

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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/6/2012 8:16 PM   
TimBle


 

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Status: offline 		everytime that wing tube is loaded, the nylon bolts are tensioned as the wings try to bend that tube. Hence you don't need to preload them too much.

Even dowels at a leading edge of the wing  get loaded in flight. primary load may not be shear but you need to analyse the wing dynamics to really see whether the bolts see enough loading to strip them.


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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/6/2012 8:47 PM   
Floatplane


 

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Status: offline 		Pilot eror  includes poor preflight inspection

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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/6/2012 11:55 PM   
jimbrock



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Status: offline 		OFF TOPIC BUT...Nitroplanes seems to be out of stock on most scale nitro models. Any idea if they are dropping the lines in favor of electrics? Or cleaning out inventory before going bottoms up?

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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/7/2012 12:13 AM   
Max_Power



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Status: offline 		Wow....I hope the people evaluating your case aren't Asian? Technically YOU are the one who bought from China to affect the amount of money in your pocket. ...They were the middle man who marketed the product you wanted that was in your price range. The Chinese worker just did what someone paid him to do to feed his/her family. Chances are they are decent people capable of operating spellcheck. Why not make it about the airplane and not what foods are in the people who assembled its' budget? Todd
quote:

ORIGINAL: comanche260c

TRUCK RACER   my bolt is  like yours was  before you changed yours. IT  fits in wopply  . But my argument is i work hard for my money and any company should back  there products.. If Horizon hobby buys from china   so they can fill there pockets with money dont you thing Horizon should have some quality control on what they are selling. I  didnt inspect  all these parts i figured there are engineers that design things  right. MAYBE THEY ATE TO MUCH RICE??????????  what you think



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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/7/2012 12:59 AM   
3dsky



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Status: offline 		I have the H9 CUB ¼ scale first version with wing blades (later versions released with the wing tube) . I do not remember what was supplied with the kit but I have metal bolts in it now. I have had the mounts pull out of the wing in flight so nylon ore steel makes no difference if the wool gives way. The wing did work its way out but the struts kept the wing from going out more than ¼ inch. The struts on the Taylercraft are very robust and I find hard to believe the wing would come out enough to rotate. I am assuming if you are a beginner that you were not doing violent maneuvers, the struts would ( or should have ) keep the wing from twisting and pulling out during normal flight. But it did happen to you and that shucks, sorry… I have flown 3 of them and found the plane to be a great performer. Hope this works out.

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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/7/2012 2:01 AM   
willig10


 

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Status: offline 		 I expect that the final result will be that H9 only offers him a discount if he wishes to purchase anor T-craft.

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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/7/2012 2:05 AM   
Taz_Hobbies


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willig10

 I expect that the final result will be that H9 only offers him a discount if he wishes to purchase anor T-craft.


Which is more than adequate in my opinion.



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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/7/2012 4:04 AM   
FuzzyDice


 

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Status: offline 		   I am working on a 28% Wildhare Extra and the the root rib has a 1/4-20 nylon bolt to snug the wing to the fuselage with hardwood dowels at the leading edge and trailing edge to hold it in place next to the fuselage . You are supposed to drill and put a safety pin in ( just in case ?) Any over-torque of the nylon bolt would have an eventual detriment  effect to the wing . Commanche 260 (what a plane it still is lol) was quick to point out that he did nothing wrong at ALL. Bought in Sept' flown in April then the crash 4-5 times only with NO stress to the airframe .....Did you look at the G-meter ?........Oh I forgot the plane is demolished ,but at some point had a catastrophic failure to the wing .........not enough threads is the position that Commanche is taking . He really might be right too. But his approach to the problem was to come on RCU and cry foul and make very oppinionated remarks about his vast knowledge of model aviation because he flys REAL planes and this expensive little Chinese made toy is a piece of junk , I saw a bind and fly T-Cart recently and it is a beautiful model . In my opinion Commanche ,Tower shouldn't have to do anything . But maybe you could get a discount on a new purchase if you let off the throttle some in your discussions . Since you fly REAL planes
(since you were 20) you should have enough sense to pre-flight your model while assembling the wings and struts and the infamous nylon bolt
that you probably cross threaded too. I had a R/C buddy get killed in a Cub when the wing strut failed ........FAA said the stut fork was only holding by 4-5 threads because of a faulty threaded tube . When I rebuilt my PA-20 I double and triple checked my strut threads . My opinion is you were too trusting in a RTF model and the ultimate resposibilty is yours and yours alone to make sure those wings a CORRECTLY assembled ,
Blah ,Blah .............. Hopefully, Tower won't give you a new plane .


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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/7/2012 4:20 AM   
3dsky



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Status: offline 		Not a Tower product. It is Hanger 9/ Horizon Hobbies.

If it was me I would have sent it back in before posting, see what action is taken then report. I have had items replaced by H9 on ARFs and think the service is great, but I never lost a plane.

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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/7/2012 4:51 PM   
rv9-a


 

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Status: offline 		jquid,

You have said what I was going to say. I also downloaded the manual and noticed that the 1/4-20 wing bolts are thumb screws designed to be tightened finger tight....no wrench needed.


rv9-a

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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/7/2012 5:32 PM   
willig10


 

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As stated earlier. I was one of the first owners of the new T-Craft 2 piece wing (ARF) version. I installed the Zenoah G-26ei and you can search and find the build here in the forums. The following for me was the pre-flight routine. EVERYTIME!!!

1. remove top plexi glass cover.
2 install wing tube
3. install wings and servo wires through access holes in fuselage. Ensure servo extension wires/leads are not caught between wing and fuselage.
4. Ensure dowel pins are mated/seated and install wing bolt finger tight (this is the nylon wing bolt Comanche is talking about) mine would engage very soon and took numerous turns to get snug. Double check servo wires/leads are not caught between wings and fuselage.
5. Install servo connector keepers on servo connectors.
6. Install keeper pins and cotter pins on strut connections between wing and fuselage for both wings.
7. Radio on and check for aileron travel on both wings.
8. Install pilot figure
9. Install top plexi glass cover and screws (just snug so the plexi does not crack).
10. Fuel plane (32:1 Stihl Ultra)
11. Start engine/range check
12 Fly

The nylon screws in question should have had a tab protruding from them that allows them to be tightened by hand.

I am sure H9 will be looking at that area and if they find that the wing bolts are not up to their design I would say tough titty in the big city. I have read this entire thread from beginning to end and the first few opening statements are what is concerning me. Comanche states he knew the bolt was only grabbing a few threads. Well Immediately this should have sent up a red flag and he should have been on the phone with H9 or asking someone about this issue.

Bottom line is he (Comanche) suspected there was a problem and decided to fly with that problem at the aircrafts demise. 1200.00 down the drain. I guess for him(Comanche) that this will be a 1200.00 learning experience on what not to do going forward.

Again my 2 pennies worth.

Glenn Williams 



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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/7/2012 6:02 PM   
Mpizpilot


 

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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/7/2012 6:28 PM   
FuzzyDice


 

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 Yes 3dsky the plane is Hangar 9 / Horizon poduct , And your post is really what Comanche should have done , I threw my two cents in after he made the rice comment ........... I love Asian food . but we all know he wasn't talking about rice really .



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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/7/2012 7:04 PM   
comanche260c


 

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Status: offline 		In response to WILLING10post.I have tryed sitting on my hands and trying to shut up but I get furious when people assume things that were not true.You mentioned that I should of  called Horizon when i noticed the threads  were not grabing much in the wing bold.. Well I did just that  but it was after the crash when I did inspection of wing bolt threaded area that was small in my eyes.As previously mentioned when  I buy something I dont figure I have to tear it apart to check engineers designs.  PLEASE dont put words in my mouth that I didnt say, it sounds like I made that discovery before I flew the plane and flew it anyway. That is NOT true, as i noticed it after it crashed when I was searching for why the  wing wobbled.Also I might add that the tail support from the horozontal tail to the vertical fin broke twice at the top where it bends .I notified them and they sent me new supports.This happened twice while i was breaking engine in on table.I gave up and used aviation safety wire.  Someone  said earlier reading these posts is like following chinese directions and I agree.The problem is its the way the human brain works or doesnt work.....People just get there first thought to what happened and  dont dig or think deeper.So slow down and think and ask first ...      And by the  way as I have mentioned  hangar 9 service is just great and I only deal  with them as  i previously mentioned                                                                                                                                                                                         

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RE: Taylorcraft crash - 7/7/2012 9:32 PM   
FuzzyDice


 

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Status: offline 		 Commache that is a very reasonable and good response to all . But don't let the keyboard cowboys get you furious , what do you expect on an internation discussion forum ? I recant some of my opinion of how you handled the situation and I hope that you will tell all and keep the thread informed on what Horizon might do for you . best of luck with that .

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