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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/15/2012 4:51 PM   
AMB


 

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Status: online 		Aspeed want to try diesel again??? Just get a David diesel head for the LA 10 mininum bucks invested too you already have the engine

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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/15/2012 7:05 PM   
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Status: online 		I could make my own too. It would be more fun.  I wonder how the push/pull head works.  I had a Frog .15 as a kid that went great but I could never start it. All the team race locals thought it was great but I couldn't even restart it. I keep getting .10's and .15's at swap meets for next to nothing now that the leckies are so good.  I likely have 10 or 15  scattered around the basement.  they are usually like $20 and sometimes are new. 

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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/16/2012 12:22 AM   
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ORIGINAL: aspeed

I would hope the Fora is better.  The numbers posted earlier were about the same as my AP .09 and LA .10 on glow with no muffler using the 7''-4p.  I am still looking for an excuse to try a diesel again.


I'd guess that you were running your AP 09, and LA on venturi's much bigger than 2.7 or 3.3mm?

A clubmate is running a Fora 15 Junior mk 2 diesel as a glow and finds it much faster then his Cox Conquest.

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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/16/2012 12:58 AM   
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Status: online 		Here is my AP 09 with a diesel head made by A J Coholic circa 2005-2006 , the first one I returned because of low compression, they sent me a new one ( hobby people)
think we were getting around 10K Plus on a 9x4 or 9x5 as a guess idle maybe a bit less than 4000 instant response to WOT, It never saw glow fuel maybe
20 minutes or so on bench martin



I will re run this one in a day or two and get the numbers

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< Message edited by AMB -- 8/16/2012 1:44 AM >

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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/16/2012 2:48 AM   
aspeed


 

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Status: online 		I just ran the LA and AP on MA 7-4" props with no mufflers.  The AP .15 I found really responded to a bigger control line carb, and the muffler really hurt the .15.  The AP .09 the muffler was only 15,200 to 16,900 change.  The LA .10 was 16,200 to 17,500 and then 18,000 with a closer headspace.(,005" shim)  I was getting bored over the winter and tried all my little stuff, and wrote it down.  I made new stingers for the AP .09 and .15 and it made a big difference especially the .15.  I made the hole almost 6mm to still be legal for F2D and the rpm went from 13,300 to 15,500 compared to open exh. at 15,700.  A bigger carb.(.240" it went 17,200) The .15 was on a 7-5" MA. The 7-4" was 21,400. It is easy to just unscrew the stinger on the muffler than make a new stinger and tap the muffler...  Does the AP crank hold up to the diesel?  I have been warned today about converting glow to diesel.  I was quite impressed with the AP for a $35 motor.  I think it will need a new rod soon though, I was kind of over revving it with a F2D prop and it is pretty clunky now.  They were the stock RC carbs.  .166" and .180" or about 4mm and 4.5mm for the OS LA. They both have a spigot sticking through too. Since I am writing down numbers.  My Conquest was 19,500 and the Fora.15 was 20,500  and the ASP .15  17,600, all with 10% nitro and the same 7-5 MA prop with no muffler.

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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/16/2012 3:07 AM   
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Status: online 		will mess around with a couple of props for about 12K the rod is bushed and beefy so should be no issue also engine seemed pretty quiet martin

just looked my post from 8/292010

10x5 wood zinger 8200
9x4 wood zinger 9500
8x4 black MAS 14000

idle around 3000

Fuel Davis 1/2A The quality of these varies took me 2 tries to get good ones issue in both was poor compression but after exchanges finally ok

< Message edited by AMB -- 8/16/2012 3:35 AM >

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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/16/2012 3:37 AM   
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Status: online 		Wow, a 10-5" on an .09.  That's almost as big as a plane!

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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/17/2012 2:19 AM   
AMB


 

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Status: online 		Aspeed no surprise since diesel has at least a 30% power increase over glow many more BTUs in Kero/vs/ methanol the 10 size prop at 8200 interesting number but you need at least 10K of rpm in most plane it will fly at 8000 but may not get off the ground (at least grass at that rpm) big increase in thrust in 2000RPM from 8 to 10K

But it does prove a point

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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/17/2012 1:32 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AMB

Aspeed no surprise since diesel has at least a 30% power increase over glow many more BTUs in Kero/vs/ methanol the 10 size prop at 8200 interesting number but you need at least 10K of rpm in most plane it will fly at 8000 but may not get off the ground (at least grass at that rpm) big increase in thrust in 2000RPM from 8 to 10K

But it does prove a point


Where does this 30% power increase claim come from Martin?

Any evidence?





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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/17/2012 1:47 PM   
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Status: online 		Gazimoto the 30% is a typo should be 20% based on 135000 BTU/gallon of kerosene JP8 and #2 diesel close, methanol about 111500 martin

run a diesel at night no muffler no viable flame complete burn, glow you have flame out the port , loss there too, all fuel not burned on power stroke

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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/17/2012 3:10 PM   
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Status: offline 		I have never seen any flame, but on cox engines one would see the glow plug glow.

I think methanol doesn't show any flame, that's why it is so dangerous in the pit lane of Formula One etc. A synthetic oil might burn visably though, I guess.

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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/17/2012 3:34 PM   
AMB


 

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Status: online 		MR COX I did notice it on one of my 40s it was dark and was quite visable , no not shooting out the port but you could see it at the edge, I would conclude that it was not complete combustion of the intake charge, thus a power waste this may be the reason or at least one of them for our fuel economy of diesel/VS/ glow

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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/17/2012 9:22 PM   
AMB


 

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Status: online 		JUst RE RAN THE AP HORNET 09 WOOD ZINGER DAVIS 1/2a GOT 12500 idle 3500 instant response to WOT martin

wood zinger 8x4

< Message edited by AMB -- 8/17/2012 10:19 PM >

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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/18/2012 2:17 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AMB

Gazimoto the 30% is a typo should be 20% based on 135000 BTU/gallon of kerosene JP8 and #2 diesel close, methanol about 111500 martin

run a diesel at night no muffler no viable flame complete burn, glow you have flame out the port , loss there too, all fuel not burned on power stroke



I don't think you can reasonably compare the BTU/US Gallon of Kero and Methanol as a measure of the relative power of Diesel/Glow engines, even if it's the same engine.

I did some bench tests with a Diesel Parra 15 a while ago. This comes with a Nelson glow head button as well. Comparing it in both configurations all else except the fuel unchanged, I got exactly similar RPM results.

The diesel fuel was standard Oliver Tiger Brew and the glow 10% nitro, 20% Castor and the rest Methanol.


This is also my observation with the Fora 15 mk2 which is also simply converted between diesel and glow allowing a direct performance comparison to be made.



I suspect there is a power increase on a big R/C glow when a conversion head is fitted but I'd say it may have a lot to do with an increase in compression over standard.

Careful skimming of OS 25 FX and Irvine 25 glow heads to increase compression and to set the squish heights at optimum also results in a considerable increase in performance.

It's been well known for a while that the average standard r/c glow engines "out of the box" is set undercompressed for safety.

Ray


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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/18/2012 2:22 AM   
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Gazimoto the 30% is a typo should be 20% based on 135000 BTU/gallon of kerosene JP8 and #2 diesel close, methanol about 111500 martin .


Surely it's a bit more complicated than that?! For starters, diesel fuel has a much lower proportion of kero than glow fuel has of methanol/nitro, plus a diesel generally burns its fuel at a lower rate. I'm a great fan of my diesels, but I don't think a straight comparison of BTU/gal is valid if you're trying to draw any conclusions about relative power.

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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/18/2012 3:06 PM   
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Status: offline 		I got the same RPM figures running a K&B 4011 glow engine on diesel fuel and with glow fuel. I also got the same RPM on a Drone diesel with the Drone glowplug head. I think how much power an engine puts out is resident in the engine design more than in the fuel. I think, as a general statement, to say that diesels are more powerful than glow, is a myth.

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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/18/2012 4:09 PM   
Mr Cox



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Status: offline 		To me they seem to have similar max power but the diesel engine will produce that power at lower revs and thereby has a better fuel economy. So power/fuel volume seems to be higher for diesels.

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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/18/2012 4:17 PM   
Jim Thomerson



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Status: offline 		Well yes, On the K&B 4011, I turned the needle in a turn and a half to get it tuned from glow to diesel. Drone diesels are wierd. I had to turn the needle in about a half turn from diesel running setting to tune the glow run. There is a point of view that our engines are air pumps, and the more air run through, the more power, regardless of fuel.

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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/18/2012 4:19 PM   
AMB


 

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Status: online 		JIM... diesels (at least glow conversions) can run a bigger diameter and or pitch at the same rpm as glow) I got 11,000 on my old OS 10MAX on a 9x4 wood zinger since I never ran it with glow I do not know what it would achieve perhaps some has and could let us know regards martin

I just did this last night engine mounted in in a minnie telemaster electric conversion

If you have any Davis Diesel instruction sheets compare the suggested prop sizes against the engine makers prop suggestions

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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/18/2012 9:41 PM   
Mr Cox



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Status: offline 		An OS .10FSR gives about 15500rpm on a 7x4 prop, which is about the same power as a 9x4 prop spinning at 11000rpm.

Fuel consumption is higher though at the higher revs.


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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/18/2012 10:09 PM   
AMB


 

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Status: online 		Mr Cox THX looks like on the money cheers martin

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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/19/2012 12:33 AM   
qazimoto


 

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ORIGINAL: Mr Cox

An OS .10FSR gives about 15500rpm on a 7x4 prop, which is about the same power as a 9x4 prop spinning at 11000rpm.





How do you know this?

Has someone done a set of power absorption tables?

Inquiring minds need to know!

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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/19/2012 1:39 AM   
qazimoto


 

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ORIGINAL: Jim Thomerson There is a point of view that our engines are air pumps, and the more air run through, the more power, regardless of fuel.



Jim,

I think you're right.

A clubmate and myself have been experimenting with maximum venturi hole sizes on 2.5cc diesel and glow engines running on suction.

About 3/16" or 4.76mm seems to be the upper limit for both diesel and glow.

Both types will happily run above this diameter but Air Density variation seem to become important.


Ray


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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/19/2012 7:56 AM   
Mr Cox



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ORIGINAL: qazimoto

How do you know this?

Has someone done a set of power absorption tables?

Inquiring minds need to know!


To be accurate one would need load-calibrated props etc. but there is an Excel sheet by Peer Rivers that gives you a good estimation; prop-power-caclulator

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RE: New 09 Diesel - 8/19/2012 1:21 PM   
qazimoto


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr Cox


quote:

ORIGINAL: qazimoto

How do you know this?

Has someone done a set of power absorption tables?

Inquiring minds need to know!


To be accurate one would need load-calibrated props etc. but there is an Excel sheet by Peer Rivers that gives you a good estimation; prop-power-caclulator



Mmm interesting,

but there was an authoritative prop absorption article including graphs published in ACLN 35 back in 2000.

I'll see if I can cut it down to size for posting.

Ray


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