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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/21/2012 5:31 AM

jeffk464

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quote:

ORIGINAL: danamania

Electric power is the reason I returned to the hobby as adult. Given the amount that I have spent in the past 3 years, EP must be good for the hobby!

I started flying contests last season, a few IMAC basic (didn't suit me), and a few pattern meets. This year I decided to stick just to Pattern. EVERY contest I have been to in these past 2 years has had at least one IC deadstick per contest, and at least two of those this season alone resulted in extensive damage to the model (vs. no electric deadsticks). These were not newcomers to the sport, like me, but experienced, seasoned pattern flyers who are competitive. One fellow I know has made the decision to come over to the dark side and try electric. I guess that is an easier move to make when the glow bird is grounded for rebuild. Over the course of these same 8 contests to date, I have not met or heard of a single pilot talking about going back to YS. True this is anecdote - and a sample of convenience with no statistical power, no doubt - but my observation from within my parts of D1 is that the move FROM YS to electric is still occuring, albeit at a glacial pace. So much for this limited data LOL!

Now Matt (MTK) has a gasser or two he flies pattern with, his own designs, and has bought a Vanquish to convert to gas. This interests me much more as I have a stock electric one. As far as IC goes, could it be that gas is the future, not nitro? Anyway, I am not yet inclined to haul a gasser in my used Volvo wagon, but as it ages and starts to smell like old car, who knows right? A slimer? Not likely, I just don't enjoy the mess, smell, noise, etc.

Oh, and I usually get at least 2-4 flights in while the glow guys are getting set-up and started. Sometimes I am even done for the day before a glow bird gets in the air. True, most of these are NOT YS, but this repeated experience at the flying field reinforces for me, at my level of experience, that the time is better spent as stick time in the air on electricity, rather than throttle time on the ground messing with glow fuel (after all , I am a flyer not a mechanic). All just my opinion and observations of course, to each his/her cherished own in this great hobby we share.

My experience from watching people down at the field with gassers is that they basically almost never dead stick, if you look at properly set up name brand engines I would say never dead stick at all.

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/21/2012 7:51 AM

papaone

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Hello

Danamania wrote :"Oh, and I usually get at least 2-4 flights in while the glow guys are getting set-up and started ..."

My own experience on field :
CDI engine start easily. With my 5 liter fuel I can stay the day on the field and can do 8 flights of 18 mn to 20 mn.
Friends of mine when finished their 3 or 4, "7 mn electric flights", they cannot fly because no charged batteries. So they ask me to lend my plane to fly with.

Claude

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/21/2012 11:42 AM

danamania

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Bonjour Claude,

quote:

ORIGINAL: papaone
Danamania wrote :"Oh, and I usually get at least 2-4 flights in while the glow guys are getting set-up and started ..."

Dana also wrote: "True, most of these are NOT YS" Please let's t's keep my quote in context, svp. Merci!

At the contest I entered this past weekend there were no YS deadsticks which was good. What was not good was a friend and competitor flying YS had to abort a flight as the belly pan on his plane came loose from vibrations and made the plane unstable. When he landed, he found that he had not properly secured the belly pan and so this was not due to the vibrations from the YS at all. OTHO many more parts, moving parts, and vibration working things loose on any IC powered aircraft compared to electric power: this can add to the challenges on contest day at the cost of a win, no? My friend already purchased two, 2m electrics for next season and will keep his favorite YS powered model for sentimental reasons. What I have learned is that one needs to be an excellent mechanic as well as an excellent pilot to be competitive with YS powered pattern planes, and one must have the time to perform detailed maintenance as well as practice the schedules, no?

_____________________________

Good Flying! Dana
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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/21/2012 1:38 PM

Niall

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Hi,
I was at our National Championships this weekend. The leading pilot was flying a YS CDI. During an F flight he got a dead stick. On landing he found his throttle servo was toast. He replaced the throttle servo and went to fly the next round of the comp. On throttle up the plane went crazy, luckily it was being held at the time. The culprit was found to be a broken ignition cap causing interference. Luckily even though he scrubbed 2 rounds he managed to win the title despite all his issues. He spent at least an hour on his hands and knees over his YS.

I personally think the thing about Electric v Engine for me is that I am never worried about my electric starting or more importantly stopping. If you set it up correctly and manage your battery correctly and monitor how they are behaving then you rarely have an issue. I just never had that feeling when I flew IC

Just my observations as a "former" YS pilot .

Niall

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/21/2012 2:01 PM

apereira

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Hello Niall,

What was the final classification for South Africa if I may ask?

Regards

Alejandro

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/21/2012 4:18 PM

Niall

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quote:

ORIGINAL: apereira

Hello Niall,

What was the final classification for South Africa if I may ask?

Regards

Alejandro

South Africa ?? Thats next year isn't it. Unfortunately electrics do not let me see into the future

Niall

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/21/2012 4:31 PM

SAB

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Niall,

I think he question was: is your National Championship also the team selection for next years WC in SA - if so what was the result.

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/21/2012 4:35 PM

Niall

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SAB

Niall,

I think he question was: is your National Championship also the team selection for next years WC in SA - if so what was the result.

ohh, This was 1 leg of the team trial so the team is not finalised yet....

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/21/2012 4:55 PM

MTK

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Pattern is a Flying endeavor. It doesn't require that anyone have magical mechanical capability or ability to build their own stuff. In fact the rules allow assistance for any mechanical matters and serious teams (one pilot and one assistant, or, in the case of World teams, each pilot has his own assistant) often have an expert mechanic on hand. The rules also specifically prohibit flying assistance......

Electrics enable the assistant (mechanic) to become simply a caller. If the assistant can also serve as a maintainer of all equipment and systems, all the better. One would be hard pressed to find any team however that doesn't have as serious an assistant as the pilot in all matters of maintaining the pilot's ability to compete with minimal effort.

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MattK

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/21/2012 5:21 PM

serious power

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Hi Matt,
For the majority of people it is a sole en-devour.
This is true for most 'team' members also.
Only countries like the US and Japan send real mechanics.
Without successful individuals most countries would struggle to put up a team.
How much electric can benefit this remains to be seen.
I think is is visible in our little country at this stage.

Brian

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/21/2012 6:38 PM

MTK

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Brian,

That's a good point. Although individual flying teams are allowed (one pilot one caller) by the rules, not everyone can use the allowance to full advantage. But some, maybe even many, can!

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MattK

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/22/2012 1:02 AM

TonyF

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In fact, Pilot/Caller teams are not recognized by the FAI in the F3A event. And the AMA does not pay for the caller/mechanic of a team pilot.

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TonyF - Team Horizon, Team BJ Craft, Team Contra Drive, Neu Motors
2010,2009 US Masters Champion,2011 Masters Also-Ran

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/22/2012 3:17 AM

apereira

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Thank you SAB, that was the question,

I got the results on Google already

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/22/2012 9:16 AM

serious power

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quote:

ORIGINAL: apereira

Thank you SAB, that was the question,

I got the results on Google already

Hi,
Can you post a link please .

Brian

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/22/2012 7:02 PM

apereira

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http://www.imaaa.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=67&Itemid=57

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/22/2012 7:22 PM

serious power

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Hi,
Yes the results will go there when they are processed. Doesn't the web shrink the world.
I don't know when the guys will do that.
The last results in that chart are 7 weeks old. There is a couple of sets not up there yet.

Brian

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/22/2012 8:06 PM

MTK

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Tony,

That's realy funny and made me chuckle...."2011 Masters Also-Ran"....Who sez you don't have a sense of humour??

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MattK

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/25/2012 8:34 AM

papaone

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Hello
Nial wrote :
"I personally think the thing about Electric v Engine for me is that I am never worried about my electric starting or more importantly stopping. If you set it up correctly and manage your battery correctly and monitor how they are behaving then you rarely have an issue. I just never had that feeling when I flew IC"

There are problems with YS sure. It's necessary to like and have skill in mécanics.
But it's not true to tell with Electric there is no problem. I have a lot of examples whose friends burn their controlers, batteries.
I personnaly saw electric patterns burn in flight. Planes were totaly destroyed.

In French championship (International category FAI) yesterday on friday, Axiome's controler burst after the first figure so the gear broke at the landing and the flight was lost.
Third flight motor support broke destroying the front of the plane. So Third flight was lost and he will not participate to the Fly off.

< Message edited by papaone -- 8/26/2012 8:29 PM >

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/25/2012 4:01 PM

apereira

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In the WC at Muncie, I don't remember if it was form Belgium or Norway, but at the start of the first P round a pilot's plane bursted into flames (electric) and the aircraft was destroyed, someone actually had to dump an ice cooler inside the plane to try to estinguish the flames, worst part, he had only one airplane, he lost the entire WC, and the airplane, very sad.

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/26/2012 3:35 AM

MTK

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I guess the point of all this back and forth banter is that one had better be a decent mechanic regardless of your choice in flavors. Alcohol, gasoline, electrons or rubber bands still need a pretty tight screw in front of the controls

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MattK

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/26/2012 4:32 AM

Ryan Smith

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quote:

ORIGINAL: apereira

In the WC at Muncie, I don't remember if it was form Belgium or Norway, but at the start of the first P round a pilot's plane bursted into flames (electric) and the aircraft was destroyed, someone actually had to dump an ice cooler inside the plane to try to estinguish the flames, worst part, he had only one airplane, he lost the entire WC, and the airplane, very sad.

That was Henning Jorkjend from Norway.

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/26/2012 9:21 AM

serious power

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MTK

I guess the point of all this back and forth banter is that one had better be a decent mechanic regardless of your choice in flavors. Alcohol, gasoline, electrons or rubber bands still need a pretty tight screw in front of the controls

Hi,
Not really, but understanding what you are dealing with is the key with all of them.
E power systems need a good install and a little ,very little, maintenance on the electrical side - cleaning.
80 to 90% of these burn out issues are to do with connectors and or soldering.
People are still using 30 to 50A connectors in 80 to 100A load situations. This is like having 10 pin hole leaks in your gas tubing with the gas going on the exhaust and on the electrics.
They justify these by saying ' I've never had a problem' in 100's of flights.
An under spec'd install is upping the loads on everything.

With IC it is a different story.
2 stroke is not so bad and nor is gas ,normally 2S as well, but knowledge is req'd.
With a YS it is a whole other story.
Just imagine a 750cc YS stuck between your legs in a motorcycle frame. If you think that would work well for a long time well I just wish you luck with it.

You would need a mechanic on the bike and a trash collector following it to pick up the pieces.

Brian

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/26/2012 8:04 PM

Henning

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryan Smith

quote:

ORIGINAL: apereira

In the WC at Muncie, I don't remember if it was form Belgium or Norway, but at the start of the first P round a pilot's plane bursted into flames (electric) and the aircraft was destroyed, someone actually had to dump an ice cooler inside the plane to try to estinguish the flames, worst part, he had only one airplane, he lost the entire WC, and the airplane, very sad.

That was Henning Jorkjend from Norway.

Yes, unfortunately it was my Aries that was destroyed by a Schulze 32.80KA which short-circuited at startup of my first round. The ESC had over 800 flights prior to the WC without any issues. It was probably one of the bullet connectors for the motor cables that got so worm it melted the soldering on the print board and slided into one of the other connectors. I had 10 practice flights the days before without issues.
I put out the flames myself by dumping the ice cooler into the plan. What I remember the best was those who shouted: «Just let it burn!»
The front of the plane was totally destroyed except for the Advance 30-10 motor which was repaired by Plettenberg for a symbolic price. The same motor has been used in my A-model, a Wind S Pro this season.

I started rebuilding the Aries some weeks ago. The terrible smell of burned electrics is gone. All the wood is build up and the nose cone is glued into place. I build the Aries from a kit so I just doing the same job for the second time. Naruke Hobby supplied new carbon parts so it not that big job to get it into the air again. It probably will be a of season practice plane for winter use.
I still have a Schulze 32.80 in my back up plane (the one I bought from you Ryan). In my A-model I fly with the Futaba 100A ESC.

At least I had a good time at the WC meeting a lot of friendly people.

Regards,
Henning

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/27/2012 12:25 AM

bjr_93tz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: serious power
Just imagine a 750cc YS stuck between your legs in a motorcycle frame. If you think that would work well for a long time well I just wish you luck with it.
You would need a mechanic on the bike and a trash collector following it to pick up the pieces.

Brian

Sort of true. I have a Yamaha TZR250 and a Yamaha TZ250. The TZR is about 15,000km between pistons and rings and the TZ is 500km. Full engine rebuild at 1,500km BUT the TZ is an absolute weapon on the track where it's designed to be run. I genuinly thought the YS would run like a train for years, but I haven't been lucky like that. So while Yamaha kindly supplied me with maintenance schedule for the TZ of what to replace and when so I don't have any major problems, I think YS should do the same rather than rely on owners replacing stuff when it goes pear shaped.

I will admit that as a throwback to the older days, I still like to get in one flight before the comp when I go somewhere differnt just to make sure the mixture is OK. I'm sure I wouldn't have to even think about that if I flew electric.

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RE: Electric Vs Engine. - 8/27/2012 3:55 AM

MTK

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Brian,

You took the word "mechanic" literally. A better word is "craftsman", not just a simple assembler

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MattK

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