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Lithium Ion batteries - 8/4/2012 11:02 AM   
David Gladwin



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Status: online 		I think most of us are aware of the potential hazards of lithium polymer batteries, lipos, even though some people are obviously disregarding even the basic and well known safety procedures for this chemistry.

I have used lithium ion cells for some years and always considered them safer chemistry, I may be mistaken. In this month's Log (the Journal of, BALPA, the British Airline Pilots Association) there is a report of increasing safety concerns for Lithium Ions so perhaps we should start treating these cells with greater care (or using A123s !)

Main points raised :

Halon is not effective on lithium fires (no cooling). Fires should be treated with water or other non- flammable liquid. Main causes of fires:

Exposure to other heat sources.
Use of incorrect charger.
Overcharging.

More info is available at www.balpa.org and follow links to safety and security, flight safety groups and accident investigation.

You may be surprised to know that four airliners and crews have been lost as a result of lithium fires so it is a serious issue.


regards,

David.

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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/4/2012 2:09 PM   
FenderBean



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Status: offline 		I think ions are safe and will not worry one bit about mine. Most problems are from lack of attention to charging safety.

< Message edited by FenderBean -- 8/4/2012 4:43 PM >


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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/4/2012 2:49 PM   
FILE IFR



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quote:

ORIGINAL: FenderBean

I think ions are safe and will not worry one bit about mine.



Now if that is not a troll post, then I don't know what is.

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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/4/2012 4:42 PM   
FenderBean



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Status: offline 		how is that a troll post? Just saying I think they are safe once again something taken the wrong way. 99% of the fires I have seen are from lipos and those are from high charge rates pushing limits on charging or charging with the wrong settings. I have flown Ions and Lipos since 2006 with no fires "knock on wood" Even in my helis the only close call I had was from a 450 crash when a cell was cut, but still no flaming taco.


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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/4/2012 5:07 PM   
dubd



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Status: offline 		I've never had an issue with a hobby related ion, but the Li-ion in my old Android phone puffed. I disposed of it before it became a problem.

< Message edited by dubd -- 8/4/2012 8:15 PM >

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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/4/2012 5:15 PM   
FenderBean



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< Message edited by FenderBean -- 8/4/2012 8:22 PM >


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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/4/2012 5:21 PM   
sailing1


 

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Status: offline 		Isn't this thread about LiIon batteries?

I know the dangers of LiPo batteries but would sure like to know if there are known problems in our hobby related to LiIon cells.

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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/4/2012 6:04 PM   
STKNRUD


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Gladwin

You may be surprised to know that four airliners and crews have been lost as a result of lithium fires so it is a serious issue.


regards,

David.



David,

Good information but I think it has to be put into proper context. Since you mentioned "airliners and crews", I suspect that these losses were cargo flights carrying batteries that were probably improperly handled or damaged in loading (i.e. fork lift). No less a loss for the crews, but there have probably been other crew and cargo flights lost because of nature of the material being transported or improperly handled.

There are reported model losses due to Lipo fires but as a percentage of model accidents, I suspect that Lipo fires is pretty far down the list as a percentage of all losses. Even the use of an uncharged battery has probably caused more model crashes. And I have read the traggic loss of homes, etc. due to Lipo fires but probably far fewer than fires caused by any number of other reasons that could have been prevented (clothes dryer lint trap fires for example).

It is good to try and reduce the risk of any accident but that has to be weighed against the benefit and even personal preference after reasonable analysis of the data. Your info is good and useful. I just hope that accidents associated with minimal risks, don't result in laws that prohibit their use. Maybe laws limiting or controlling Lipo transport by cargo flights is a good thing because of the magnitude of the potential loss but I hope it doesn't filter down to model airplanes.

George

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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/4/2012 7:13 PM   
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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/4/2012 7:21 PM   
dubd



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< Message edited by dubd -- 8/4/2012 8:15 PM >

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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/4/2012 7:52 PM   
FenderBean



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< Message edited by FenderBean -- 8/4/2012 8:22 PM >


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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/4/2012 7:56 PM   
David Gladwin



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Status: online 		Of course, the context you put this in is upto the individual. I offer the info. for what its worth, no more. That said, I note the USPS has stopped shipping all lithium batteries internationally (air freight on pax aircraft). With this raised concern on lithium ions I will no longer charge overnight or unattended as I have done with lions in the past but will in future charge with the same precautions as on lipos. Never had a fire, always use the correct charger (Orbit) with a balancer, hope never to have one, the consequences are just too great to justify any avoidable risk so the BALPA info IS of use to me.

Regards,

David.




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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/4/2012 8:47 PM   
tsymonds


 

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Status: offline 		 Been flying RC since AM radios were the hot ticket.  Think I can hold my own but thanks anyway.

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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/4/2012 9:06 PM   
eddieC



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Status: offline 		The FAA is considering making all lithiums Hazmat shipments.

 IMO we should consider them volatile and they should be transported in a suitable container. I have a couple Li-ions and about 15 Lipos. I've seen too many fires to consider them 'safe'. One of our members had one light off in the back of his truck as he was driving to the field. May have been something caused a short, who knows? OTOH, just had an electric Sportster go in vertically with power on. No fire, even though the pack was crushed and bent 30 degrees. Go figure.

Just better to be safe than sorry.

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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/4/2012 9:18 PM   
FenderBean



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Status: offline 		David, Sorry mate I never would have guessed me saying I think Ions are safe for rc would cause such problem. I just posted that as I went out the door to go fly this morning, has there been any Ions just cook off in rc application from normal usage?
Every time I order Ions from Fromeco it talks about on able to ship via ground, guess I know why now
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Gladwin

Of course, the context you put this in is upto the individual. I offer the info. for what its worth, no more. That said, I note the USPS has stopped shipping all lithium batteries internationally (air freight on pax aircraft). With this raised concern on lithium ions I will no longer charge overnight or unattended as I have done with lions in the past but will in future charge with the same precautions as on lipos. Never had a fire, always use the correct charger (Orbit) with a balancer, hope never to have one, the consequences are just too great to justify any avoidable risk so the BALPA info IS of use to me.

Regards,

David.







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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/4/2012 10:37 PM   
MrQweeksdraw



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Status: offline 		I cannot remember the last time I flew on British Airways...I believe I'm safe.


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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/4/2012 10:58 PM   
STKNRUD


 

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Status: offline 		David,

Your quoted test results on the effectiveness of suppressing Lithium fires left me puzzled since I had believed Halon (or its substitute) to be effective and recommended by the FAA. I read a few test findings done by the FAA, etc. and they stated that Halon was effective. However, at some level (I couldn't find any reference to what constituted that level), Lithium fires do produce thermal runaway and require the temp of the fire to be reduced (water) in order for it to be extinguished effectively.

I didn't want my fellow RC modelers to be pouring water on their planes because they thought their CO2 or Halon substitute wasn't going to work on a 2-cell Lithium battery. I can't attest to its effectiveness from first-hand knowledge but I think I will reach for the CO2 or Halon substitute before I go for the water hose.



George

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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/4/2012 11:23 PM   
BaldEagel



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Status: offline 		So what we are saying here is that all mobile phones and laptop computers are potential bombs and will eventually be banned from all air flights, believe that if you will.

Mike

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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/4/2012 11:37 PM   
rcjetsaok



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Status: offline 		FYI..... Did you know that the odds of you getting on an airplane with a bomb on it is a million to one...... And did you know that the odds of you getting on an airplane with 2 bombs on it is a million times a million to one !!!! So my advice is, the next time you travel, be safe, carry a bomb !!!



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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/5/2012 5:07 AM   
eddieC



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quote:

I had believed Halon (or its substitute) to be effective and recommended by the FAA. I read a few test findings done by the FAA, etc. and they stated that Halon was effective.  


That's incorrect.

From the FAA:

quote:

Halon 1301 is ineffective in suppressing a lithium battery fire  


Above quote is from this document:   http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/systems/lithium-ion_battery_04112006.pdf

Using water on a lithium has never been recommended. Here's a quick video of what happens: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojGaAGDVsCc

Sand is still the best suppressant I believe.

quote:

So what we are saying here is that all mobile phones and laptop computers are potential bombs and will eventually be banned from all air flights, believe that if you will.  


You're the only one who has said that. 

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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/5/2012 9:07 AM   
STKNRUD


 

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Status: offline 		Not so fast Eddie C.

You are confusing two different things...The report you are referencing tested BOTH Lithium Metal (Primary Batteries that are non-rechargable) and Lithium-Ion batteries (Secondary Batteries that are rechargeable). Your quote is from the results of the Lithium Metal battery fire test. If you had read to the bottom of the report you would have found that the test results on rechargable Lithium-ion batteries were completely different. Fires from Lithium-ion batteries that we use in our models can be extinguished with Halon except as I indicated when they are subject to 'thermal runaway' conditions where the temp of the fire has to be reduced to suppress the fire.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/FAA_lithium_battery_safety_alert_fire_cargo_UPS_crash_203408-1.html


"The FAA Friday released a Safety Alert to address "risks in transporting lithium batteries in cargo by aircraft," noting that UPS Flight 006, a 747 that crashed on Sept. 3, was carrying large quantities of lithium batteries. Fire was reported on the UPS flight but the FAA notes that a cause of the crash has not yet been determined. The crash destroyed the aircraft and killed the crew. The FAA has found that lithium metal batteries are not only "highly flammable and capable of ignition" but also possess destructive explosive potential. The agency says Halon 1301, the fire suppression agent found in Class C cargo holds, "is ineffective in controlling a lithium metal cell fire" and lithium metal battery explosions can lead to "rapid fire spread" in cargo compartments. Lithium-ion batteries are somewhat different. They can exhibit the same thermal runaway as lithium metal batteries, but the FAA says Halon 1301 is capable of suppressing lithium-ion battery fires."

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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/5/2012 1:44 PM   
mrbigg



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Status: offline 		Why still use Li ion? A123's are tons better. I quit using Ions myself.

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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/5/2012 2:01 PM   
bevar



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Status: offline 		David,

Great post ...thanks for bringing up the topic...it's good stuff.

Beave

http://gigaom.com/cleantech/lithium-ion-batteries-faulted-for-jet-crash/



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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/5/2012 4:12 PM   
BobbyMcGee


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FILE IFR

quote:

ORIGINAL: FenderBean

I think ions are safe and will not worry one bit about mine.



Now if that is not a troll post, then I don't know what is.

What is it with you? Do you have to attack anyone who makes a comment that you feel is different from yours? I notice that you do that a lot. The guy voiced his opinion, that's all! Don't get your panties in a wad!

Is it your time of the month?

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RE: Lithium Ion batteries - 8/5/2012 4:25 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tsymonds

 Fender,

Did it ever occur to you that nearly every thread you post in turns into a pissing match between you and everyone else?  I figured with your self implied Apache IP superiority you would have been able to figure out that the common denominator is you.  You say your open to discussion but it always seems to be an open discussion as long as it's your way being the better one.  I don't post here much at all but read a lot and can honestly say seeing you leave the forum will probably help the rest of us out a lot.  BTW is there anything left of your F-16 to grind off or is all in the DustBuster already?



The only thing I notice is that the "in' crowd of jet girls want to echo their self-imposed egos and rhetoric amongst themselves without being challenged. So they immediately go on the attack if anyone new has ideas of their own. This sickens me, and any on-lookers to no end. It's not the money that keeps some people away from jets ... It's the ignorance and cattiness of many of the jet 'girls' that keep new people away. Who in their right mind wants to be a part of that, or associated with the BS!

Yes, I fly jets, both real and these toys. I would never treat or talk to anyone in the manner I see here.

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