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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/9/2012 3:28 PM   
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ORIGINAL: diy-pro

Lol when keeping it real goes wrong...

The whole point was Thunder Nuts boat would run fine under 9lvc but he could NOT run it at the 12v lvc past half throttle. Its stupid obvious the culprit is the esc as two different packs performing great with lvc set to 9.

Suggesting he leave the lvc at 12v and run the boat for one minute than bring it back for a battery switch is just irrelevant and redundant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And please please please tell me you meant 33 celcius 


Why does it HAVE to be the esc? Maybe it's doing exactly what it's supposed to do. It IS obvious that the esc at least works fine , and one could argue that the (lvc part) of it might not be working properly. Without knowing the accuracy of the voltage read by esc in question one wouldn't be able to make the determination. Maybe it is reading the correct voltage , maybe not. I will say two things about it , that is it might be nice if it had some settings BETWEEN 9 and 12 volts. If it was mine I'd set it at 9 volts and forget about it. The lvc isn't to be relied on as a means to tell one when to stop running. It should be there just for "insurance"

ps. I know what bill means. He means 33 deg F and one couldn't do much better than to follow his recommendations.

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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/9/2012 3:33 PM   
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ORIGINAL: srt10

I'm interested to know what's wrong with that esc?


This could very well be a case of neither the battery nor the esc is "bad" , but a case of "that battery with that esc in that application"

It is good chance that the pack works very well for many others in many apps and so does the esc. I don't know about this set-up because the questions go un-answered , but it is at the ragged edge of performance that we find limits or tiny flaws to products.

I'm sure the OP is hard at work making a parallel connector so he can do the test I mentioned.

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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/9/2012 4:10 PM   
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Status: offline 		33°F is the optimal temperature for a LiPo to have the longest lifespan in addition to keeping it at 3.8V/cell

I challenge anyone to provide video proof of a LiPo fire caused from draining down to 2.0V / cell within the manufacturer C rating.

For example, a 20C-2A pack may only support up to 40rA of current, but if the motor pulls 80A of load, then the battery is at risk of catching fire, not because of being drained below 3.0V/cell but because the load exceeded the rating for the battery.

Most videos of LiPo fires are from folks intentionally over charging their batteries, not from discharging... so long as you monitor your temps there will be no risk of fire.

I'm not convinced that the OP is having issues with his ESC yet.

How old is the battery pack?
What is the load from the motor in the system?

If his pack was brand new, then 30C x 5.8A = 174rA

Only problem is if the pack is losing its rated capacity, then he simply needs to buy a new pack and follow the suggestions I've outlined above assuming the battery is properly matched to the motor.

I prefer to use 60C packs so I don't run into punch problems that the OP is experiencing.

I would recommend this pack here for a decent replacement to ensure he gets the full range of punch:
http://www.valuehobby.com/power-systems/lipo-batteries/4s-lipo/gforce-60c-5200mah-4s-car-lipo.html

The ESC doesn't control punch, in this case it's either an under performing battery or over rated motor for the system. 



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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/9/2012 4:45 PM   
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ORIGINAL: srt10
some lipos actually perform better at 120-140*!


where are you getting this information?

I have already posted a credible source for my information, too bad you're too lazy to read up on it.

I will gladly read any credible resource you can put forward to back up this false claim of many others that you are so mis-informed about.  It's okay because you fall in the larger category of misinformed folks who read a manufacturer recommendation when it is only a recommendation, then take it for gospel.

I will whole heartedly agree that draining a pack below 3.0V/cell is generally a bad practice, but please understand that fully charging a battery to 4.2V/cell is equally as harmful.

Do yourself a favor and take 10 min to read these articles, granted some of the information is dated, but it will help broaden your general understanding of the technology better:

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/premature_voltage_cut_off

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/is_lithium_ion_the_ideal_battery

What bothers me most is how so many people believe LiPo is dangerous when in fact it is a much safer technology than NiMh on so many levels, doh!




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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/9/2012 5:54 PM  1 votes
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Status: offline 		I recently had a similar situation in an aircraft comparing 3S 2100 Lipos from two different makers.  The aircraft pulls 22A static at WOT. Brand X Lipo is 15C continuous (31A) and would cut out at half-throttle, even after a fresh charge. This is a well-known brand but not top name, a 'B' grade IMO.  Brand Y is 20C continuous (42A), and would pull WOT no problem for 4:30, with varying throttle use would last 6:30-7:00. This is a pricey, 'A' grade IMO. The difference seems to be Brand X is over-rated. It performs like a 3S 1600 at best.  Works fine in my 10A airplane, but doesn't perform to its rated output. in the other aircraft.

BTW, make sure the C rating is continuous, not peak. Over-rating of packs is quite common I've found, and pack labels should be taken with a shaker of salt, especially lowest-cost packs.

Great posts, Bill. One of the articles points out that conductivity, and thus performance, does increase with increased temps as srt10 states, so he's technically correct. It also states that cells exposed to those temps suffer a much shorter lifespan. You're both right!



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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/9/2012 6:10 PM   
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Status: offline 		Thunder nut, do you know what your setup draws at WOT?  That would help in selecting the proper pack. If you're hitting LVC on a fully-charged pack, most likely it's the pack. For best pack longevity, you want a pack that will do 20% more continuous of your max amp draw. A 40C pack would probably help, but we'd need to know what you're pulling at WOT.

Setting the LVC below 3V/cell will shorten the pack life drastically. I'd suggest selling the pack(s) and getting more substantial (higher continuous C and amps) ones, similar to Bill's recommendation.

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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/9/2012 6:59 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eddieC

Great posts, Bill. One of the articles points out that conductivity, and thus performance, does increase with increased temps as srt10 states, so he's technically correct. It also states that cells exposed to those temps suffer a much shorter lifespan. You're both right!




duly noted, thanks for the educated lesson, greatly appreciated


*** UPDATE ***

Any chance you could please point to the specific article and reference to where temps above 140°F perform better?

Here is what I was able to find:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battery University

Unfortunately, the dry lithium-polymer suffers from poor conductivity. The internal resistance is too high and cannot deliver the current bursts needed to power modern communication devices and spin up the hard drives of mobile computing equipment. Heating the cell to 60°C (140°F) and higher increases the conductivity, a requirement that is unsuitable for portable applications.

To compromise, some gelled electrolyte has been added. The commercial cells use a separator/ electrolyte membrane prepared from the same traditional porous polyethylene or polypropylene separator filled with a polymer, which gels upon filling with the liquid electrolyte. Thus the commercial lithium-ion polymer cells are very similar in chemistry and materials to their liquid electrolyte counter parts.



How does increased conductivity equate to improved performance? Is this measurable?

I am temped to run some experiments with battery packs at different initial core temps to see how significant the difference in performance is if any.



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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/9/2012 7:44 PM   
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Status: offline 		I can easily do them tests at various temps. How about a specific pack at 80,100,120,140 deg F? I wonder which current I shall use because many times the pack will heat up to 150 at end of the run. I know what I could do. I can use one of those $1 1sx130 HK buggers. They are quick to charge and discharge, lol.

< Message edited by guver -- 8/11/2012 1:50 AM >

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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/9/2012 7:48 PM   
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quote:

Any chance you could please point to the specific article  

Here's the quote, in the 'ideal battery' article. I might be reading into it, but to me increased conductivity equals more output. A short-term solution if the cells are trashed though?
quote:

Unfortunately, the dry lithium-polymer suffers from poor conductivity. The internal resistance is too high and cannot deliver the current bursts needed to power modern communication devices and spin up the hard drives of mobile computing equipment. Heating the cell to 60°C (140°F) and higher increases the conductivity, a requirement that is unsuitable for portable applications.  


I have some large Nimh packs (10S 3A) that perform much better when heated above 80 F or so. I haven't had a problem with long-term storage of them either. Every spring they come back to life and perform well.

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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/9/2012 9:49 PM   
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Status: offline 		well the way I would measure performance would be through my Thunder AC6 software program hooked up to a 30A bulb discharger and graph the power curves over time across the exact same battery pack with various initial starting temps and of course I would record the final temp of the pack as well for each cycle.

I haven't committed to  doing the test yet, but I might try at various initial temps of 40° then 60° and finally 80°... the idea being that 3 data points spanning 40° of initial difference should provide meaningful data as well as the final temp of each test. I typically suspend my tests at 3.3V/cell as seen in a sample test I ran not too long ago here:



In this particular test, I concluded that each of the tested brands were reporting relatively accurate C ratings as each rA between each pack measured as one would expect.

I know this was mentioned earlier, but there is one particular brand of battery that misrepresents their packs with grossly overstated C ratings, I won't give the name of the company but I always get maximum cramps when I see their ads posted anywhere

Also note that the Turnigy pack with 390/354 = 10% more rA ran for 10:52 - 10:12 = 40 seconds longer than the G-Force pack or 652/612 = 6.5% longer so you can see how important rA is with respect to run time as the OP has already experienced with his 30C pack.  I am not saying that any particular brand is better than another, just that each of these brands tested are believed to be using accurate C ratings.




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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/9/2012 10:43 PM   
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Status: offline 		Good data there, Bill  
I'm amazed at the number of folks who run electrics - cars, planes, helis and boats, who don't own or borrow a wattmeter device. One sees so much in just 2 minutes. I have an original Astro, a Watts Up and a Medusa. Some of the guys refuse to hook one up when offered, but complain their equipment is too hot to touch after a run. I don't understand...


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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/10/2012 2:46 AM   
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Status: offline 		Right??? Im def ordering one just looking for a cheap reliable one 

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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/10/2012 3:04 AM   
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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/10/2012 2:41 PM   
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Status: offline 		I've had good luck with this $24 Power Analyzer here:
http://www.hobbypartz.com/26p-twometer.html

Here's a demo I slapped together for some uses for it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64afMUmnEZ8




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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/11/2012 12:03 AM   
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Status: offline 		 As long as the watt meter is cheaper than your setup you would most likely definitely save money especially with someone like me. Im getting my first lipo brushless system soon. I might know how to do math i.e. 30c X 5000mah= 150a discharge capable X.8 discharge cap safezone for lipo longevity. But what i wouldnt know is the actual quality of these lipos or if they even can discharge safely at 120rA. But with a watt/amp meter one can actually trouble shoot problems like the esc overheating or in thunder nuts case low quality or damaged lipos if they wernt discharging adequate amperage. Thats another reason im not ordering a thing until i have enought money to get my whole setup including spare collets and flex cables. I hate not being prepared or stuck up ish river with out brushless power... So yes you guys could be right but Thunder butt never even told us his setup and is probably humored off this if hes lurking about

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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/11/2012 1:13 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: guver


quote:

ORIGINAL: srt10

I'm interested to know what's wrong with that esc?


This could very well be a case of neither the battery nor the esc is ''bad'' , but a case of ''that battery with that esc in that application''

It is good chance that the pack works very well for many others in many apps and so does the esc. I don't know about this set-up because the questions go un-answered , but it is at the ragged edge of performance that we find limits or tiny flaws to products.

I'm sure the OP is hard at work making a parallel connector so he can do the test I mentioned.




that connector could help us figure things out!

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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/11/2012 1:24 AM   
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ORIGINAL: bill_delong


quote:

ORIGINAL: srt10
some lipos actually perform better at 120-140*!


where are you getting this information?

I have already posted a credible source for my information, too bad you're too lazy to read up on it.

I will gladly read any credible resource you can put forward to back up this false claim of many others that you are so mis-informed about.  It's okay because you fall in the larger category of misinformed folks who read a manufacturer recommendation when it is only a recommendation, then take it for gospel.

I will whole heartedly agree that draining a pack below 3.0V/cell is generally a bad practice, but please understand that fully charging a battery to 4.2V/cell is equally as harmful.

Do yourself a favor and take 10 min to read these articles, granted some of the information is dated, but it will help broaden your general understanding of the technology better:

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/premature_voltage_cut_off

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/is_lithium_ion_the_ideal_battery

What bothers me most is how so many people believe LiPo is dangerous when in fact it is a much safer technology than NiMh on so many levels, doh!





WOW!
calling someone lazy because they don't share YOUR opinions!
let if go man

where do some get there info that others don't?
that would be at the lake racing FE boats!.
and others at tracks who race cars...
facts are lipos can perform better when warmed up..

you keep preaching to others to READ..
do some reading on your end first befor tellings others what to do on these forums because they don't agree with you

ever heard of a lipo warmer? I take you have not read about them, or heard of them right, because you keep telling others they are wrong...
racers use them to lower internal resistance and helps Keep batteries at a constant voltage.

and 140* is more of the max temp lipos should get to for safe use...

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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/11/2012 1:27 AM   
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I can easily do them. How about a specific pack at 80,100,120,140? I wonder which current I shall use because many times the pack will heat up to 150 at end of the run. I know what I could do. I can use one of those $1 1sx130 HK buggers. They are quick to charge and discharge, lol.


when those packs are at 150* what is the resting volts?
thanks

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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/11/2012 1:39 AM   
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Status: offline 		Generally any test that runs 0ver 150 will rest at 3.5 per cell or more.

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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/11/2012 1:42 AM   
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Generally any test that runs 0ver 150 will rest at 3.5 per cell or more.



ok... help me out on this with your other post
"80,100,120,140?" are those amp loads your putting on packs?
thanks

I do know that running lipo packs to a lower Volt under load does heat them up more, or to higher temps...

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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/11/2012 1:46 AM   
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Status: offline 		No, I was offering to graph a specific pack at those various temps to demonstrate that a hot pack has more power. The funny thing is that bill was talking about "storage" when he mentioned 33 deg F and you were talking about "using" when you mentioned 140 deg F.

This chart helps? but unfortunately doesn't cover the temps we are talking about here. Not my chart.



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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/11/2012 1:57 AM   
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No, I was offering to graph a specific pack at those various temps to demonstrate that a hot pack has more power. The funny thing is that bill was talking about ''storage'' when he mentioned 33 deg F and you were talking about ''using'' when you mentioned 140 deg F.

This chart helps? but unfortunately doesn't cover the temps we are talking about here. Not my chart.




ok thank you.. now I'm following you...
yeah I agree lipos need to be stored at lower temps to make the packs last longer on the shelf..
but during use they like to be warmed up..
that's some thing I don't do myself as I'm having my own issues keeping my FE Boats on course, so the extra punch right now would work against me..

personaly I think warming packs to 140* is a bit much, but I have warmed my Revo packs to 120* befor

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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/11/2012 2:44 AM   
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Status: offline 		I don't warm mine artifically , they get warm by themselves.

Hey, I just thought if another test for the OP. Warm the pack up and try it out.

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RE: How low can I run 14.8Volt 5800 Lipo's - 8/11/2012 3:38 AM   
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I don't warm mine artifically , they get warm by themselves.

Hey, I just thought if another test for the OP. Warm the pack up and try it out.


that part I got..
and running them down to 3.5v will get them warm..
that's almost empty.. maybe 5% left.

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